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frumpypigskin

M3e Ironsides

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Hi guys, 

I recently picked up Ironsides core box and am wondering if I've got enough now to field her and have a functional crew.

 

I'm thinking of using something like;

Toni
Mouse
Gunsmith
Union minor (proxy... I think I have to get some right?)
 
Howard
Captain
Amina
Medical auto
+3ss
 
Or ditch the minor and add some upgrades if you don't need the Schemes and if 3 ss or 6 card hand isn't enough...
 
I was thinking of having top half go for one flank and the bottom half go for the other so I can effectively do Idols or turf war?
 
What do people think? What would you do differently? What makes you reach for Ironsides? I want to try her out cos I'm struggling with cursed idols with MEI or Hoffman.
 
Keen to hear any and all opinions on the new leader of the M&SU!
 

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I don't know if this can help, but imo fitsimmons is unmissable piece.

Htw e dmg reduction 1 for all m&su in aura, more better than medical (you already have mouse for healing)

You might want to play with two gunsmith, for their armor ignoring, instead of captain and his shielded ignoring.

A list i was successuful with, was:

Toni

Mouse 

Amina

Fitsimmons

Howard

2x Gunsmith one with Magical Training

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48 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

I don't know if this can help, but imo fitsimmons is unmissable piece.

Htw e dmg reduction 1 for all m&su in aura, more better than medical (you already have mouse for healing)

You might want to play with two gunsmith, for their armor ignoring, instead of captain and his shielded ignoring.

A list i was successuful with, was:

Toni

Mouse 

Amina

Fitsimmons

Howard

2x Gunsmith one with Magical Training

Did you just deploy all in the centre and use the gunsmiths to project force toward the flanks? What do you use to run schemes with that list? Or were you able to pick central things that let you shoot/kill first and scheme later?

 

I agree Fitz seems really good and probably helps a lot with winning the scheme war. I Just don't have him. Maybe I should just proxy him instead of a miner until I can get my hands on him...

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, frumpypigskin said:

Did you just deploy all in the centre and use the gunsmiths to project force toward the flanks? What do you use to run schemes with that list? Or were you able to pick central things that let you shoot/kill first and scheme later?

 

I agree Fitz seems really good and probably helps a lot with winning the scheme war. I Just don't have him. Maybe I should just proxy him instead of a miner until I can get my hands on him...

Sounds bad, but unfortunately M&su currently, haven't good answers for corrupted idols.  For others strategies are great..

But you can play defensively: you can reach one side of the centerline as soon as possible with your models, maintaing the right bubble distance: with ranged attacks of gunsmiths, 3/4 actions of Tony and free nimble of Howard you can cover a large part, to anticipate your oppo. and kill his models, before they place idols in your half-table.

you can still cheating initiave flip, for "choose" where next idol will spawn, and magical training (w 7 cards) help a little.

necessarily with the list that i gave you, first kill than after you go to scheme. 

Seems foolish, but one thing not to be understimated is, if you have to separate your crew for any reason, i.e. schemes like outflank never put togheter amina and ironside, just so you can optimize TIWA aura

 

 

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So I'm playing with Toni for the first time since beta tonight.  I'll be against Euripides in;  Reckoning (standard); Deliver the Message, Assassinate, Take Prisoner, Dig Their Graves, Search the Ruins.   My list is as follows;

  • Toni
  • Mouse
  • Amina Naidu
  • Joshua Fitzsimmons
  • Howard Langston
  • Gunsmith (+ Magical Training)
  • Soulstone Miner (+Diesel Engine)
  • 5ss Cache

 

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5 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

I don't know if this can help, but imo fitsimmons is unmissable piece.

Htw e dmg reduction 1 for all m&su in aura, more better than medical (you already have mouse for healing)

You might want to play with two gunsmith, for their armor ignoring, instead of captain and his shielded ignoring.

A list i was successuful with, was:

Toni

Mouse 

Amina

Fitsimmons

Howard

2x Gunsmith one with Magical Training

Almost my list although I put magical training on both gunsmiths for redundancy and shielded :D

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Personally I find that Fitz and double Gunsmiths is the mandatory core to my Ironsides games.  After that, some mix of Howard, Captain, or Emissary for kill tech and Miners (Union or Soulstone), Amina, and Colette for scheme tech.

I really find that if you're playing the M&SU then it's going to be outside hires that do any scheming, the crew wants to bubble up hard and leaving their aura bubble is a challenging ask.

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52 minutes ago, katadder said:

Almost my list although I put magical training on both gunsmiths for redundancy and shielded :D

it's plausible, i always afraid to having too few ss :P but actually playing well with Amina, the problem does not arise.

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Ironsides with Fitzsimmons and a pair of Soulstone Cache Gunsmiths and a Union Miner with Magical Training served as my core during Beta. Minions who will likely get focused down and who are intensely suit-focused LOVE having Soulstone Cache. Your foe typically will try to get into their faces early, and it pays to be able to deal with it with soulstones. Also it means you can farm soulstones once models start dying :)

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On 6/7/2019 at 9:12 PM, mythicFOX said:

So I'm playing with Toni for the first time since beta tonight.  I'll be against Euripides in;  Reckoning (standard); Deliver the Message, Assassinate, Take Prisoner, Dig Their Graves, Search the Ruins.   My list is as follows;

  • Toni
  • Mouse
  • Amina Naidu
  • Joshua Fitzsimmons
  • Howard Langston
  • Gunsmith (+ Magical Training)
  • Soulstone Miner (+Diesel Engine)
  • 5ss Cache

 

Thanks for sharing! 

A couple of questions; first how did the game pan out and did your picks perform what you expected?

Is the diesel engine on the miner primarily so he doesn't get picked off from range or is it more about moving him between search targets while still mining soulstones?

Do you tend to go early or late with the gunsmith or does it just depend when he has targets and how do you position him, on the edge or right amongst your M&SU blob? 

 

Lastly, In reckoning what do you mostly use Amina's AP for? And do you subscribe to the rule interpretation that if an enemy is obeyed to hit it's own ally, that ally can then "relent" because the model is friendly even tho the control isn't?

 

Thanks!

 

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On 6/7/2019 at 10:36 PM, Kharnage said:

Ironsides with Fitzsimmons and a pair of Soulstone Cache Gunsmiths and a Union Miner with Magical Training served as my core during Beta. Minions who will likely get focused down and who are intensely suit-focused LOVE having Soulstone Cache. Your foe typically will try to get into their faces early, and it pays to be able to deal with it with soulstones. Also it means you can farm soulstones once models start dying :)

Did you end up going OOK to get more mobility focused schemes done? I'm struggling to see how to effectively address outflank, breakthrough or search type schemes with Ironsides beyond using multiple SS miners or OOK hires like wind gamin etc. Either get them done or prevent the opponent.

Were you able to use the Gunsmiths to effectively control the flanks in you games?

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15 hours ago, frumpypigskin said:

Did you end up going OOK to get more mobility focused schemes done? I'm struggling to see how to effectively address outflank, breakthrough or search type schemes with Ironsides beyond using multiple SS miners or OOK hires like wind gamin etc. Either get them done or prevent the opponent.

Were you able to use the Gunsmiths to effectively control the flanks in you games?

The miners (I took two overall) did schemes like Harness the Leyline and Search the Ruins just fine, Assassinate and Claim Jump being my secondary schemes for the 2 games I've played. Reckoning and Turf War were easy enough for the crew, so the Gunsmiths stood with Ironsides in the middle and shot out from there, though I imagine in scheme pools with schemes like Outflank, the Gunsmiths with stone support will win most "Runner-Jousts" as I like to call them, while still being able to affect most of the board with their range. Just make sure to bring a miner for each of them to keep them Unionized. 

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@frumpypigskin

No problem.  So first thing to underline is this was my first game with them post beta, so I wouldn't categorize anything I did as being especially efficient.

On 6/8/2019 at 11:40 PM, frumpypigskin said:

A couple of questions; first how did the game pan out and did your picks perform what you expected?

Solid win for me.  I'd say Fitzsimmons broadly exceeded expectations, and Amina under-performed.  Although I probably flipped a bit above average, and in one game on a favorable objective set it's hard to gauge. 

On 6/8/2019 at 11:40 PM, frumpypigskin said:

Is the diesel engine on the miner primarily so he doesn't get picked off from range or is it more about moving him between search targets while still mining soulstones?

It was to better enable his pulse which removes Ice Pillars when he activates. Making him more useful in the match up against the Ice Giants.  I also like a Soulstone miner in Reckoning as they can often pick something off for an extra VP.

On 6/8/2019 at 11:40 PM, frumpypigskin said:

Do you tend to go early or late with the gunsmith or does it just depend when he has targets and how do you position him, on the edge or right amongst your M&SU blob? 

With shooting options I prefer to hold them until my opponent exposes something for a clean shot, forcing them to play around my shooting for as long as possible.  So I activated late turn one from a good firing position, then early the following turn to wrap around my shooting on an exposed model.  

On 6/8/2019 at 11:40 PM, frumpypigskin said:

Lastly, In reckoning what do you mostly use Amina's AP for? And do you subscribe to the rule interpretation that if an enemy is obeyed to hit it's own ally, that ally can then "relent" because the model is friendly even tho the control isn't?

Obeying / Walking the Line with Burnout to hand her AP to more efficient combat models in my crew and position the crew.  That and her defensive options proved useful.

My understanding of the rules is that if I obey an enemy model to hit another enemy model my opponent can choose to relent (as my opponent controls the resisting model);

  • P26 - "Regardless of control, the model does not change which models it considers friendly and which it considers an enemy."
  • P10 - "If two friendly models are in an opposed duel, the resisting model may choose to relent before any cards are flipped."

 

Trust this helps. :) 

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Since Ironsides' schtick is being engaged is it silly picking her into a pool with both deliver a message and hold up their forces in the pool?

I'm playing tomorrow and want to try her out but also don't want to lose just because I picked her out played her in a way contrary to the way she was designed on my first try with her....

Corrupted idols;

Hold up their forces

Deliver a message

Dig their graves

Harness the ley line

Out flank

 

It's not like its a tournament game but would be nice to make it worth the time... Would you being her? What would you take? 

At this stage I'm leaning towards taking someone else in Arcanists. Ta

 

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Hold Up can be an auto-loss against an outactivating summoner. What are your chances? I might try to trust the bubble to kill anything hired that is cheap and/or isolated enough to score Hold Up, but not otherwise.

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@frumpypigskin Hire two soulstone miners to do outflank. :) What is the deployment? Do you know your opponent's master?

Then, I'm maybe less sure about what to say. I tend to always bring a summoner into corrupted idols, but I am interested in trying alternatives now and would try her just because I'm curious about how she would perform into such a strat. You will maybe need a don't mind me model for the strat and to negate Deliver a message at the end of the game since it is quite likely your opponent will take it. I guess you will have to think carefully about where to place the ironsides bubble since it will determine where most of the action will take place.

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Yeah that's not a pool I'd expect Toni to be overly favored in.  Generally I think she'll have game in Reckoning and Turf War, with Explosives and Idols being more marginal.

Personally for the above I'd probably run Sandeep (6 cache, Banasuva, Kandara, Metal Golem, Metal Gamin, Soulstone Miner, Wind Gamin, Steam Arachnid Swarm + Magical Training.)

That said there's no harm in trying something.  Assuming standard deployment I'd probably look to mix it up a bit;

  • Toni (cache 5)
  • Mouse
  • Fitzsimmons (8)
  • Amina (9)
  • Union Miner (5)
  • Steam Arachnid Swarm + Magical Training (10)
  • Wind Gamin (7)
  • Soulstone Miner (6)

Use your M&SU block to get up field and fight the enemy, using Toni and Amina to disrupt their positioning, with your independent operators managing the flanks.

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That match ended up being cancelled.

 

I did just take her out for the first time into reckoning.... She's quite impressive into this Strat. Especially since my opponent (who hadn't seen her either) decided not to go for assassinate and I was basically able to use all her adrenaline on offence. Felt really solid! Plenty of DMG and tar pits factor.

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I’ve been thinking about running a couple of steam arachnids with M&SU particularly in Idols. 

 

Cheap wounds that just need to cover the board for a random drop might be alright. At least that’s my theory. Haven’t tried it yet.

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Ok I should probably elaborate. I never take any henchmen (and/or Howard) without knowing my opponent's master. I feel like those four options are key to the survivability of your crew and denying your opponent. Miners and Steamfitters are there for the scoring on my side. Since Toni has such a small keyword pool, a good portion of scheming will be outside of keyword, as there are only a few schemes her minions are good at.

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18 hours ago, Kaiser Senpai said:

Ya'll got your standard lists and I'm here refusing to pick anything until I hear my opponents master.

I'd say that's a given with the start of game structure as it is. Luckily Toni is blessed with so many henchmen to choose from. Usually you'll reserve 18-20 soulstones for 2 best henchmen to fit the Strat/ scheme and may swap one depending on the opponent's master choice. Eg if they choose outcast their options are Legion but when they say Parker you're probably looking at the captian and Fitz to counter range and scheme markers right? Do you have more subtle examples?

You can pick your whole crew at the time of the pool but often find I end up putting my core models in first anyway and then juggling around them most of the time. 

My reason for this topic was to help develop of core and discuss rationale for different picks for strategies where Toni might not be a strong pick.

 

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Kind of, but I don't always need two. I try and knock it down to even one if I can (really depends on the opposing keyword). I really need to wean myself off of balling up and two henchman usually means everyone's in the center and I'm letting my opponent run circles around me. Reckoning is probably Amina/Howard. That's really the only time I'll bring Howard unless I know I'll be facing nasty defensive triggers. I think the Emissary is more useful more often for 10 stones. I can offset the bubble a little to one side, locking down 2/3 of the board while the bull can patrol the other 1/3. Harder for my opponent to do backfield shenanigans on me. I probably should bring Fitz more often, but I just have not had much luck flipping into scheme-heavy games. SO. Addressing your final line, this is how I'd approach each strategy:

Reckoning- Amina and something for her dote on, Howard/Emissary/Cojo. Possibly even a tertiary attacker in the swarm or mecharachnid
Turf- Amina and/or Fitz. One or two gunsmiths. Own the center and use kills to deny points. Threaten three Strategy points but primarily deny your opponent either their own points or force them to hold models back to keep reflipping markers.
Idols- AMINA. If they're dumb enough to park a model next to a marker and not move it, punish them. Medical Automaton for additional heals.
Explosives- Amina. Same idea as as Idols in forcing your opponent to drop on their side. Emissary is great here as he can hunt fast models trying to skirt your crew.

So I guess Amina is my crutch (didn't realize that till I typed this out), though I do tend to bring 2 henchman more often than not. As far as schemes go, you'll always find use for one soulstone miner. Even as a bluff. Outflank? Bring at least one. I think opponents think you're not going to stretch models out to stop them from scoring it, so they seem to take it often. Using a SS miner will also be easy points for Claim Jump, as Toni wants to own the center anyways. Union Miners are great for Detonate and Dig (though any scheme marker scheme is good), though they are often the first target. Steamfitters seem to have a smaller target on their backs, so a good model to start breakthrough or use the Captain to surprise your opponent.

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I tend to think of these things in terms of Cores and Packages.  The core of a crew being the group of models you'll almost always want in order for the crew to function, including a base cache size.  A package is one or more models hired to do a job;  I.E objective running, killing. 

For Toni I'd say my core is;  Toni, Mouse, Fitzsimmons, Gunsmith, magical training, and a four stone cache.  Four models and 22ss.   This gives a good protective core, plus strong scheme denial.  For a recent Reckoning game vs Nekima I played;

Core:

  • Toni + cache 4
  • Mouse
  • Fitzsimmons
  • Gunsmith  + Magical Training

Objective Package:

  • Union Miner
  • Soulstone Miner (Vendetta)

Hitting Package:

  • Steam Arachnid Swarm (Immune to black blood)

Tech / counter play package:

  • Amina (opponent heavily reliant on charging for damage output)
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