Marcus M3E Tactics

[Nikodemus]

4 hours ago, bertmac said:

 

Try to keep myranda near marcus early on to help cycle cards and keep them both healed later i like to throw horns on marcus and charge him into the fray I didnt shapechange myranda once this weekend the +df aura and healing meant she and marcus both took a lot of attacks without dying.

How did Myranda's healing come into it?

[Ogid]

Ty for the info @bertmac.

It's good to see a succesful Hoarcat scheme runner and a different approach than the SS chache in ARC.

As Nicodemus is subtly pointing out above, Myranda Healing is beast only; she can't heal Marcus or herself with that one. She may heal herself with Mend Self's trigger in Beast Shape and then again when she activates with Shapechange tho; Marcus can only throw beasts in the way of the atackers (or get healed and shielded by Vogel).

About the mutations, those seem good choices. I personally rather Serrated in the Jackalope and in a charging Marcus than Horns; neither of them are good beaters and both have Pouncing Strike as masks so the mask trigger isn't that necessary (also a charge with Marcus will be to reposition him most of the time; to finish someone that must die I could see Horns in Marcus as a desperate move if there is no more beast around tho). Adversary may mark those models to be latter deleted with proper "beaststicks". Armor in Myranda and Marcus early may be ok if they are going to be targets, but I generally rather them in beasts that will be more exposed than them as both tend to linger a bit behind early using their support abilities (this may be playstile dependent tho). Vogel may use most mutations, camo or wings are the safest as both work well with both forms, but Armor or Serrated may also work (Horns is my least favourite but it's not totally worthless on him).

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Marcus can only throw beasts in the way of the atackers (or get healed and shielded by Vogel).

Marcus has the Tear Off a Bite trigger to heal himself. You can stone for it, or you can relent with the Jackalope. Cost my opponent a few Assassinate VP.

Horns is good for Vogel because the Beast has a 2" engagement range

[Ogid]

Haha true, I tend to forgot that trigger on him; 1 master AP to heal 2 is underwhelming and the other actions of Marcus are so much better than his attack; but it's true it's there for a rainy day like denying those Assassinate VP 👍

About Horns in Vogel... I guess it's playstile. I like Vogel and the Beast for the utility, not the damage. Camo and Wings keep both forms reasonably safe and annoying to deal with so are usually my favourite, Armor is great for the beast with Df6 and H2W, still useful for Vogel but worse than Camo/Wings for human form. Both Horns and Claws aren't that useful for Vogel, but at least claws let him inflict Injured+Adversary and the beast can Pouncing strike and give 2 models Adversary for 1 AP. Horns is good for damage, but is the least utility focused mutation.

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

Haha true, I tend to forgot that trigger on him; 1 master AP to heal 2 is underwhelming and the other actions of Marcus are so much better than his attack; but it's true it's there for a rainy day like denying those Assassinate VP 👍

About Horns in Vogel... I guess it's playstile. I like Vogel and the Beast for the utility, not the damage. Camo and Wings keep both forms reasonably safe and annoying to deal with so are usually my favourite, Armor is great for the beast with Df6 and H2W, still useful for Vogel but worse than Camo/Wings for human form. Both Horns and Claws aren't that useful for Vogel, but at least claws let him inflict Injured+Adversary and the beast can Pouncing strike and give 2 models Adversary for 1 AP. Horns is good for damage, but is the least utility focused mutation.

Once you put an upgrade on Vogel, you cant get it off until he dies. So I NEVER put wings on Vogel, its just too valuable an upgrade, and I only put Armor on him if my opponent is trying to focus him down, to waste more of his AP. 

Horns in contrast is kind of trash except on Cojo, so its fine to just leave on the Beast.

[Ogid]

Poor non-Adaptive evolution models, treated like second class citizens 😂.

I do like Horns in a few models; from the ARC side in the blessed is Ok to get a good charge hit and it's also legit in the Bear when the grit is active; in NVB there are also a few good Horns holders (Bandersnatch and Rougarou).

[MrPieChee]

Now first mate is a beast, would anyone consider taking him in a Zoraida Marcus dual master tag team?

[Morgan Vening]

4 minutes ago, MrPieChee said:

Now first mate is a beast, would anyone consider taking him in a Zoraida Marcus dual master tag team?

I was thinking of doing it, but it's expensive as heck. 25SS to hire in just Marcus and the First Mate, doesn't leave a lot else.

Though I am thinking a couple Gators or Siligupps with Chimera Upgrades could be fun.

[Icebeard]

Question regarding Paul crockets scent of blood. 

 

With the new Errata, actions generated by actions can not use triggers. 

Does

A) scent of blood (being an ability) allow for triggers to happen, as it's the ability that creates the second action. 

Or 

 

B) in order for Paul to actually cause damage to a model he needs to take an action, the action generated by scent of blood ties in with the action that caused damage, and for that reason no triggers may be declared. 

[santaclaws01]

38 minutes ago, Icebeard said:

Question regarding Paul crockets scent of blood. 

 

With the new Errata, actions generated by actions can not use triggers. 

Does

A) scent of blood (being an ability) allow for triggers to happen, as it's the ability that creates the second action. 

Or 

 

B) in order for Paul to actually cause damage to a model he needs to take an action, the action generated by scent of blood ties in with the action that caused damage, and for that reason no triggers may be declared. 

Firstly, the errata doesn't change anything for actions generated by actions. It's for actions generated by triggers.

Scent Of Blood isn't a trigger, so it doesn't impose any extra restrictions on the generated action beyond the one listed in the ability.

[Icebeard]

 

Yup! I didn't read that properly, which makes sense, since that would also block charges from causing triggers. 

 

Thanks for clarifying that the ability is OK. 

[nomadicXnightmare]

Getting back to Marcus after spending the bulk of M3E running Outcasts, and overall I've found the crews I'm building are rather top heavy/elite. Reading this thread there's a lot of good advise regarding the big beaters and mid-costed models, but I'm trying to see if taking some chaff is even worth doing. What are peoples' collective takes on the Order Initiates with the cost decrease, or even lowly Molemen?

At 6ss, Paul is obviously worth it in conjunction with beefier beaters. Plus actual shooting. Order Initiates seem like good self-reliant scheme runners/flankers or maybe dedicated hunters of other scheme runners. Being able to cycle mutations themselves appears solid. Where do Molemen fit in? At 4ss I don't expect a lot, but they still feel very 'meh'. Are Hoarcats that vastly superior for +1ss you'd never consider taking a Moleman? I was debating coupling one with something like a Cerberus or Rattler for Hidden Martyrs - basically park the guy on the back field until the last turn. Otherwise I can't see a dedicated use for them. Talking NB Marcus for a second, I was taking a very hard look at Corrupted Hound - 3ss significant, regen 1, Sz1 models are nothing to scoff at for scheme running purposes. Thoughts?

[Jinn]

33 minutes ago, nomadicXnightmare said:

Are Hoarcats that vastly superior for +1ss you'd never consider taking a Moleman?

I don't even consider taking Hoarcats (with Raspy or Marcus).

The problem with these cheap chimera models is that unless they're good enough to hire on their own they're going to be a waste of both Marcus's AP and his very limited upgrades. I have two copies of feathered wings available, do I want a speedy, annoying to kill Cerberus, or a speedy, still pretty easy to kill Moleman? The opportunity cost of hiring a bad model in Chimera is just too high, especially when this crew needs every edge it can get.

Mutations are always going to be better on already good models, so why bring garbage and then spend an already mediocre Master's resources on bringing them up to barely average? Other crews can hire better models and have full on Master shenanigans on top of that. A fully kitted out Moleman or Hoarcat probably still won't compete with a Necropunk, Crooligan, or a Tanuki for value, and none of those models cost Master AP or design space.

I'd personally steer away from those cheaper beasts (unless you have a specific combo in mind) simply because your upgrades will generally provide more value per Master action if they go on models with more wounds/higher survivability.

[nomadicXnightmare]

@Jinn Makes sense and pretty much aligns with my initial gut feelings. My thought of using a Moleman with Hidden Martyrs is thankfully non-dependent on mutations, but still may not be worth the 'investment' of having 4ss effectively hide all game. I haven't tried Hoarcats, and I might still give them a shot, but I likely wouldn't give them mutations simply because I can't get them back unless a model dies. A Corrupted Hound or two I feel might still be worth testing out in NB, but that's a discussion/experiment for another thread.

So for the time being, if I'm looking to save some stones on "cheap" keyworded models, Paul and Order Initiates are really the best options I have. At least potentially when not considering faction specific beasts. I know we just got the errata, but it makes me want to submit Molemen as a candidate that seems pretty much useless and could use some love.

[Ogid]

While @Jinn is right you don't usually want to put mutations on cheap models, sometimes it could be worth it (specially if you may get it with a swift action trigger instead of using a full Marcus AP); feel free to experiment and consider one of these if you have and odd number of beasts and the stones (and mutation allocation) fits; Marcus really needs an extra layer of though behind each list.

About corrupted hounds... in NVB you have dolls, also 3SS and safer scheme runners than the doggies (and both Vasilisa and WW can rebuild them/upgrade to stitcheds). Also in NVB a Wisp is 4SS, those with Camo are hard to remove for most cheap models, can fly and double scheme. The hounds maybe could had an spot in some match up for the ping damage on top of being cheap AP or maybe could be paired with a BBS, but I'm not that sold on those.

Initiates for 6SS seems now decent, either for the card draw around Marcus or as cheapish seek and destroy little misiles against other cheap schemers (in HH also seems good as a filler). And Moleman... maybe with the new schemes they are more useful, we'll see.

On 3/7/2020 at 3:31 PM, MrPieChee said:

Now first mate is a beast, would anyone consider taking him in a Zoraida Marcus dual master tag team?

It was already an option before, Zoraida has good beast in keyword, and some of them cannot be taken with Marcus leader.

[Jordon]

I've mentioned it before but I still feel like "Adaptive Evolution" should be removed from all models and placed on every mutation instead. The idea that you lock your upgrades when you put them on specific models is just a terrible idea when the design of the crew is designed around swapping these around. 

I'll echo others sentiments on cheap models. They just don't really work with Marcus. A moleman is still just a moleman and no upgrade is really going to change that so why bother spending my masters AP on it. That's why I like McCabe's upgrade system better as it gives actions AND modifiers (fast) so that everyone can benefit big and small. 

Molemen seem like they should be really tricky and mobile. The problem is that die laughably easily. A severe from just about any model (and a moderate from a good many) will outright kill them before they even get a chance to bury. Besides they only work when paired with another model to feed them scheme markers which Marcus has no easy keyword access to.

Hoarcats are a bit more survivable but they kind of fall flat for a 5ss model when taken outside of ice pillars (which again Marcus doesn't have easy access too).

Neither are worth spending mutations on so why even bother? Just take a Saboteur who will fight and scheme better than either of these models. 

Order initiates just can't find a purpose. They don't hit hard unless you spend a ton of resources into them. They aren't particularly survivable or fast. They have some support but it's not enough to justify their cost. The only thing they have going for them is that they allow Marcus to draw cards and they act as beasts for him to pass attacks on to. You might hire one but any more becomes a trap since they hog mutations

[Mycellanious]

14 minutes ago, Jordon said:

I've mentioned it before but I still feel like "Adaptive Evolution" should be removed from all models and placed on every mutation instead. The idea that you lock your upgrades when you put them on specific models is just a terrible idea when the design of the crew is designed around swapping these around. 

I'll echo others sentiments on cheap models. They just don't really work with Marcus. A moleman is still just a moleman and no upgrade is really going to change that so why bother spending my masters AP on it. That's why I like McCabe's upgrade system better as it gives actions AND modifiers (fast) so that everyone can benefit big and small. 

Molemen seem like they should be really tricky and mobile. The problem is that die laughably easily. A severe from just about any model (and a moderate from a good many) will outright kill them before they even get a chance to bury. Besides they only work when paired with another model to feed them scheme markers which Marcus has no easy keyword access to.

Hoarcats are a bit more survivable but they kind of fall flat for a 5ss model when taken outside of ice pillars (which again Marcus doesn't have easy access too).

Neither are worth spending mutations on so why even bother? Just take a Saboteur who will fight and scheme better than either of these models. 

Order initiates just can't find a purpose. They don't hit hard unless you spend a ton of resources into them. They aren't particularly survivable or fast. They have some support but it's not enough to justify their cost. The only thing they have going for them is that they allow Marcus to draw cards and they act as beasts for him to pass attacks on to. You might hire one but any more becomes a trap since they hog mutations

For what they are rn Order Initiates should be 5 stones.

Making them 5 stones, even if that comes with a nerf or rework would help Marcus out a ton. 

Maybe part of the issue is that they have good abilities, but they work contrary to each other. They deploy with an Upgrade which means Marcus doesnt have to spend AP on them, but to use Chimera Strike Marcus needs to spend AP on them. Their ability to change upgrades means they want to run independant from Marcus, but in order to get card draw they need to be near Marcus. They can move their AP to other Beasts, but if they have the Upgrades, then they are the model you want to move AP to.

[Nikodemus]

I've used Moleman a few times and... I mean it's a 4ss model. It moves, it interacts. Might get a VP. But it's definitely very very fragile and any good opponent will just remove it before it gets a chance to score that VP or two. For a laugh I once added Camouflage on it and it did ok. Of course, that was one less Camouflage and I felt it for entire rest of the game. But it's rare I hire them. For reasons hashed out already in this thread.

I've said it a few times, but Chimera is odd in that it feels like it's designed for me to run less than full theme. Now I know most masters are most optimal using less than 100% keyword, but out of everyone I've played Marcus feels like it has biggest disincentives to go full Chimera/Beast. What with the mutation limitations and attached master AP costs (& stones/cards for the mask trigger).

However I do enjoy Marcus. Fun master. Enough good to decent models in the keyword that I can play the theme I dig.

[Ogid]

8 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

For what they are rn Order Initiates should be 5 stones.

Making them 5 stones, even if that comes with a nerf or rework would help Marcus out a ton. 

Maybe part of the issue is that they have good abilities, but they work contrary to each other. They deploy with an Upgrade which means Marcus doesnt have to spend AP on them, but to use Chimera Strike Marcus needs to spend AP on them. Their ability to change upgrades means they want to run independant from Marcus, but in order to get card draw they need to be near Marcus. They can move their AP to other Beasts, but if they have the Upgrades, then they are the model you want to move AP to.

5SS would be too good for them and a nerf would kill them, as said above Marcus doesn't really like expending AP buffing low cost models, a low cost models that works hoarding mutations is like the worst posible change for them...

But I kind of like them now. Having 6SS they are easier to fit in lists, they don't compete that hard with the 8SS beasts, have an edge in some schemes/strategies and for a 6SS model they have a decent damage spike (with short range, but a 6SS has to have limitations) and the card draw is very handly. Initiates are the lucky ones, there are models that needed the change even more than them that cannot say the same. 

9 hours ago, Jordon said:

I've mentioned it before but I still feel like "Adaptive Evolution" should be removed from all models and placed on every mutation instead. The idea that you lock your upgrades when you put them on specific models is just a terrible idea when the design of the crew is designed around swapping these around. 

I've never been bothered that much by those anti-synergistic parts of the keyword tbh; some models not being able to get rid of mutations seemed part of the balance of the keyword (and it can also come in handy versus crews with Obeys); but he could use some atention after the charge change... Now his activation is kind of akward. Charges cannot declare triggers, so now part of the buffs paid with Master AP don't work when said Master is expending AP commanding the beasts (and that as it's a charge, it's not as reliable as other obey-like Masters like Lucius or Zoraida). Adaptive evolution also gives suits, that now cannot be used when he obeys the charge and the model discards the upgrade; charging using Adaptive Evolution and then attach that/a different upgrade was way better before... At least Hunter's call attacks should be able to declare triggers imo (if Vogel's trigger has to be weaker, so it be; but not the master's one)

About the others:

• The low SS models anti-synergy could also be solved letting Chimerancy add a free mask when it targets a model with a cost of 5SS or less (maybe restrict it to non-totem to not mess with the Jackalope); that would enable a lot of low SS models knowing you will be able to put an upgrade just with a low card, not having to expend a SS if you don't get the low mask.
• And it could be nice if Myranda's aura would be changed to include also beasts; it's odd that is lacking in a keyword around enabling them, specially when the master let the crew include them, Myranda can beast shape into them and a lot other abilities of the crew specifically target beasts.

 

4 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

I've said it a few times, but Chimera is odd in that it feels like it's designed for me to run less than full theme. Now I know most masters are most optimal using less than 100% keyword, but out of everyone I've played Marcus feels like it has biggest disincentives to go full Chimera/Beast. What with the mutation limitations and attached master AP costs (& stones/cards for the mask trigger).

However I do enjoy Marcus. Fun master. Enough good to decent models in the keyword that I can play the theme I dig.

It's a tricky and complex keyword, but it's also fun and thematic; also a personal favourite.

Chimera can be run full theme as there are models like Vogel, Myranda and Paul that works well without/with few Mutations and that can get them when other beasts start to fall or not get them at all; but a mixed list with 4-5 chimeras and then OOK/Versatiles is also quite good; versatility is always welcome.

I'm a bit worried about purple marcus viability after the charge and IR nerf tho; he wasn't top notch in NBV and got hit by 2 nerfs (Charge plus IR). And I feel the charge nerf also affects him a bit more in NVB: There are less adaptive evolution models (or more correctly, using NVB beasts is an incentive to play NVB Marcus, which are beast that cannot cicle the upgrades); he was one of the master that needed more IR, which has also a strong synergy with charges; and also some NVB beasts have built in triggers (non-usable now when commanded) or that rely on them to be worthwhile that now can only use them in their activations or using Paul.

[Mycellanious]

5 hours ago, Ogid said:

5SS would be too good for them and a nerf would kill them, as said above Marcus doesn't really like expending AP buffing low cost models, a low cost models that works hoarding mutations is like the worst posible change for them...

 

See, I dont think that would be an issue so long as they retain the ability to attach their own upgrades. Nerf em, make em 5ss, and let them keep Aspects of the Wild, and suddenly they become cheap AP you can use to scheme independantly (which may help Molemen out) and can benefit the crew by allowing Marcus to focus his attention on the other more expensive Beasts.

I will say a 6 cost model with 7 wounds and Stampede is kind of interesting, maybe there's a niche for them there?

[Jordon]

I would much rather see poison gamin get the beast keyword than to have initiates drop to 5ss. I would love to see a poison sub theme within the faction. We have pieces such as the Scorpious, and the Poison Gamin but  they don't share keywords unfortunately.

Poison gamin would be a decent general purpose model for Marcus. They're reasonably tanky and hit harder than both the hoarcat and molemen. More importantly they have a ranged attack which makes them decent bodyguards for Marcus as they can take hits for him and still contribute from the mid line.

[Michael Curran]

Now that initiates are a point less will you consider them useful?

[Ogid]

Ah ok, I see your point now.

However as a 5SS profile they will probably be bad schemers (slowish and not able to double scheme nor disengage) and could be outclased by cheaper ones and a 5SS version would have its endurance and damage tonned down for sure... They are probably better at that with a 6SS cost than with a nerfed 5SS profile, I really doubt 2 5SS models would be worth it.

2 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I will say a 6 cost model with 7 wounds and Stampede is kind of interesting, maybe there's a niche for them there?

I'm thinking about trying a "shotgun" style with one of them. Loading them with 2 mutations (probably Wings + Horns or Horns + Claws) and blow them in the face of some model that wanders too close getting rid of both Mutations with Adaptive Evolution (buying Chimera strike with the first attack and Onslaught with the second one), getting then Armor (if the model survives) or Camo/Wings (if the model doesn't survive) with Aspect of the wild. That's easily 6-9 damage with guaranteed triggers and to duels; before the 8SS beasts can do simmilar or better with extra perks for only 1 SS more, but that for 6SS on top of the card draw isn't bad.

[Ogid]

24 minutes ago, Jordon said:

I would much rather see poison gamin get the beast keyword than to have initiates drop to 5ss. I would love to see a poison sub theme within the faction. We have pieces such as the Scorpious, and the Poison Gamin but  they don't share keywords unfortunately.

Maybe a double master with him could be worth trying... Marcus leader, Sandeep and just 3 extra Chimeras (Myranda, Scorpius + X) and it could be a legit team. If you may squeeze an extra ice/fire gaming you could end with a Golem (to command) plus a poison gamin (that may get detonated each turn for some poison spread) to summon a fresh gamin each turn.