Marcus M3E Tactics

[Hawkoon]

12 hours ago, MrPieChee said:

Does anyone use Rougarou? Or corrupted hounds? Rougarou look like great fast beat sticks.

As a slight aside, two Rougarou's both with Eldritch magic upgrade, with a supporting Scorpious - worth it for the hand drain to give the Scorpious an extra action? Dispell might be a little wasted, but counterspell and veil suit the Rou's well.

(I've new to Malifaux, just starting in m3e)

First off Rougarou and Corrupted hounds requires Marcus to play for Neverborn, so you might get better answers there?. (Although I guess there are plenty in this forum that play both neverborn and arcanists)

I have only played Marcus in NVB once, but I've played a fair amount of games with other nvb masters including Titania and Nekima. From this I can say that rougarou is a great beast for Marcus, but eldritch magic is really situational, I'd much rather go with inhuman reflexes. The fact that Marcus (and to a certain degree Myranda) can make it charge makes it really really deadly. With IR it can charge through models, dealing a point of damage to the models passed through, and even if engaged. This makes it impossible to pin down, and with it's MV6 you can pretty much get to any target you want. It's a bit squishy though, but Marcus can remedy that with a mutation.

When it comes to corrupted hounds, they're basicly only good as cheap schemers and I think Marcus has far better options there. They die to a stiff breeze and black blood will damage your other models if you're not careful with placement. I'd rather pay 1SS more for a will o' the wisps, or just give a feathered wings cerberus or rougarou a "side quest".

[Nikodemus]

How's it been going with Marcus @Pastori?

Played my first two post-beta games with Marcus. Standard Explosives vs Guild Lucius (5-5) and Standard Turf vs Perdita (6-4). Fun crew, some good models and combos in it. Would've done better in both games had I not been still babystepping my way through basics of Marcus, but isn't that always the case

Cerberus with Soulstone Cache, Mecharachnid with Diesel Engine and Slateridge Mauler (without and with Magical Training) in both games. Gonna test out Slateridge with Magical Training going forward. I'm sure it isn't optimal for Arcanists as a whole, but for my beast focus I like it. Bit risky carrier for Arcane Reservoir, but Shielded +1 combos decently with Hard to Wound and particularly well once I toss armour+1 on the bear. It tanks ok at that point. I add horns for some oomph (mandatory to get any damage out of him I feel).

Tried Myranda in the Perdita game and I think she'll be autoincluded in the next few games to stress test her. Problem with Marcus and Myranda is that neither does a whole lot of anything if there isn't a beast or two nearby (and bear getting boxed made things uncomfortable for me vs. Perdita..). They're an expensive pair to run poorly. But I do like what she offers. 

Corner Turf coming up tonight and hopefully Corner Reckoning and Flank Idols in the weekend. Testing things out and having fun

[CD1248]

@Nikodemus Don't underestimate Miranda's ability to transform into beasts. If she ends up without beasts nearby to support, just swap into a second cerberus or mauler as needed and go to town.

[Nikodemus]

7 hours ago, CD1248 said:

@Nikodemus Don't underestimate Miranda's ability to transform into beasts. If she ends up without beasts nearby to support, just swap into a second cerberus or mauler as needed and go to town.

Its good. Bit annoying to pay 9ss for an 8ss model, but that's more psychological than anything. Reserves and versatility is good.

4-3 vs McM in Corner Turf. Hard to wound and terrifying sure are annoying. Eeked out a 3-2 strategy scoring while tying on schemes. Moleman has really distinguished itself in the last two games. With Natural Camouflage its quite annoying to take out. Rest of the crew can relatively comfortably afford to drop a few scheme markers down to tunnel to. I've had it cheaply claim Turf markers near my deployment zone and lategame popping to remove opponent's scheme markers on my side of the table.

[Michael Curran]

Ferdinand Vogel should seriously become a versatile model for Arcanists.

[Pastori]

On 9/2/2019 at 11:56 AM, Nikodemus said:

How's it been going with Marcus @Pastori?

Hah. Thanks for asking😀. I have only played one match since the battle I reported some time ago. It was flank cursed idols against my arch-nemesis, Doctor McMourning. Similar crews as last time, I tried scorpius (sucked most of the poison out of his crew, then got sawed to pieces by the Doc himself) and he had Archie instead of Rogue. Did not make notes, but I remember the mauler was having a long fight against Archie over an idol in one flank, miners provided me more stones than I managed to use by the end of game, and Marcus did a flying assassination on Sebastian, red jokering damage flip 😀. We ended up 3-3 I think. Looking for next battle on the coming Saturday.. I am planning to bring Envy this time🎹..

[Michael Curran]

Q?  Do attached mutations dissipate from a model after its activation or do the abilities carry over?

I tried listening to a pod cast about Marcus, but truth be known I found it a bit droll. 

[Adran]

21 minutes ago, Michael Curran said:

Q?  Do attached mutations dissipate from a model after its activation or do the abilities carry over?

I tried listening to a pod cast about Marcus, but truth be known I found it a bit droll. 

The upgrade will stay on the model unless something says otherwise (for example, a lot of the models have adaptive evolution, that will end up discarding the upgrade).

The defensive upgrades that offer Armor and disguised would be pretty poor if they didn't stay on a model 

[Nikodemus]

As a general rule upgrades don't disappear off of a model and nothing in the Mutation upgrades says that they do, so they don't.

Some Chimera can discard their Mutations for benefits, but that's a specific ability on some models.

[Michael Curran]

Thats what was throwing me....... all the discards and retakes.

[Nikodemus]

Yeah there's a few. List of things that discard Mutations:

Ability on Marcus:

Quote

Guided Evolution: At the start of this model's Activation, discard all Mutation Upgrades Attached to it. Then this model may Attach a Mutation Upgrade.

Ability on Jackalope:

Quote

Creature of Caerbannog: When this model would discard a card for its Demise Ability, it may instead discard a Mutation Upgrade. If it does so, it may ignore the Ability's Once per Turn restricton.

Trigger on Myranda:

Quote

Primal Flame ...

Flames of Change: Target may discard a Mutation Upgrade to Attach a different Mutation Upgrade.

Action on Myranda and Order Initiates:

Quote

Aspects of the Wild

Discard a Mutation Upgrade, if able. Attach a Mutation Upgrade to this model.

Ability on Cojo, The Scorpius, Sabretooth Cerberus, Slate Ridge Mauler and Order Initiate:

Quote

Adaptive Evolution: After this model declares an Action, it may choose an Attached Mutation Upgrade to receive a and any suit to that Action's duel. After resolving the Action, discard the chosen Upgrade.

Obey people want to keep an eye on that last one

[Pastori]

So I had a game last weekend, but as we did not have as much time as usual, we played only 30 points (+9 point henchman leader). He did not bring his Mourning crew, but instead played with some swampfiends of mine. It was wedge turf war, he had assassinate and message (a combination I was not expecting), I had message and breakthrough. He had McTavish leading Juju, 2 silurid and waldgeist against my Myranda, Cojo, cerberus, ss miner and Crockett. I first thought of bringing mauler instead of Paul and the miner, and this swap proved to be one of the many mistakes I did. I thought Cojo would do some tanking in the middle, but he got hit by Juju red joker damage turn 2, and got killed before I could heal him. Cerberus was having a futile chase after one silurid in one flank, and got shot dead by McTavish before managing any kills or points. Paul did nothing, and was eventually shot also. Myranda got messaged by silurid, who then escaped and Juju came in to beat her down. My only light at the end of the tunnel was ss miner, who managed one point for breakthrough. End score 6-2 to McTavish. Lesson: have a plan for your play, and try to follow it. And draw better cards..😁 

[KingCrow]

I have my first game with Marcus soon vs a Resser crew.  Realized that staggered can really screw this crew over and lack of condition removal is rough for the crew.  So, I've decided on bringing an Oxfordian Mage with the Magical Training upgrade.  Hard to decide if it's worth 9 stones but between getting an extra card, the AOE to get rid of conditions, the counterspell aura, the shielded +2 and concentrate to heal, seems it might be a good model. Plus the trigger on their ranged attack might be useful.  Moreso if I can get Poison on the enemy model and switch the Poison to Slow. Just another reason to wish that Marcus had more access to models that applied poison. 

Only downside is only having 7 models in the crew.  Is that normal? 

[Michael Curran]

Seven/Eight models to begin a match is common.

[Ogid]

8 hours ago, KingCrow said:

I have my first game with Marcus soon vs a Resser crew.  Realized that staggered can really screw this crew over and lack of condition removal is rough for the crew.  So, I've decided on bringing an Oxfordian Mage with the Magical Training upgrade.  Hard to decide if it's worth 9 stones but between getting an extra card, the AOE to get rid of conditions, the counterspell aura, the shielded +2 and concentrate to heal, seems it might be a good model. Plus the trigger on their ranged attack might be useful.  Moreso if I can get Poison on the enemy model and switch the Poison to Slow. Just another reason to wish that Marcus had more access to models that applied poison. 

Maybe too expensive for just a support model with no synergy with the rest of the crew... but it depends on you and the crew you are facing. For just a bit of condition removal back up I'd pick the effigy, with Armor and Hard to kill it's not that squishy and the other player would probably left it unchecked (or have to waste 2/3 actions to kill it). The aura is very good, but keeping the oxfordian alive won't be easy, he is a juicier target than the effigy (specially with the upgrade), and he has to be closer to be effective.

[Mycellanious]

13 hours ago, KingCrow said:

I have my first game with Marcus soon vs a Resser crew.  Realized that staggered can really screw this crew over and lack of condition removal is rough for the crew.  So, I've decided on bringing an Oxfordian Mage with the Magical Training upgrade.  Hard to decide if it's worth 9 stones but between getting an extra card, the AOE to get rid of conditions, the counterspell aura, the shielded +2 and concentrate to heal, seems it might be a good model. Plus the trigger on their ranged attack might be useful.  Moreso if I can get Poison on the enemy model and switch the Poison to Slow. Just another reason to wish that Marcus had more access to models that applied poison. 

Only downside is only having 7 models in the crew.  Is that normal? 

Keep in mind the concentrate to heal is only for that specific Mage or Elementals, which are unlikely to be in a Marcus crew

[KingCrow]

7 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Keep in mind the concentrate to heal is only for that specific Mage or Elementals, which are unlikely to be in a Marcus crew

Makes me wish that the Poison Gamin rkept their Beast trait from the Beta. Could've got a lot of use in a Poison Marcus crew. 

[KingCrow]

Had my game with Marcus today. Game type listed below.  I chose Claim Jump on Marcus and Search the Ruins. Played vs a Resser Yan Lo list with an Archie. My list is below. 

My opponent called it after turn 2 possibly due to my two Cerberi (Myranda turned into one) tearing through his backline and other life things going on but I got a few takeaways from the game.  

- Marcus seems to be left behind so he needs to have a dedicated protector or something to shunt damage on to.  I used Cojo to Toss Marcus up behind a few Beasts turn 1 and turn 2 they were sent charging with 2 upgrades a piece on them.  My opponent sent Archie into my backline (read - dead Saboteur) and I was surprised he didn't leap into Marcus and start beating him. Need to find a way to keep a Beast near him. 

- Adaptive Evolution is strong... as long as you can stay within range of Marcus to draw the card and be able to toss those upgrades back on. 

- I wish Chimerancy could be used on all Living models. 

- With almost every model having unimpeded and Leap, it's very hard to lock down the crew.  

- Never got a chance to swap Ferdinand to the Beast but I think my opponent was a little apprehensive to allow him the opportunity to change. Also, why is Ferdinand not a Beast? Was rude to find out he wasnt as I had been keeping him close to Marcus for shielded and possible damage shunt.  

- Jackalope is an annoyance, except when anti-demise comes along.  I like it. 

- Cojo.  Maaaan do I like me some Cojo.  Solid model if not a little squishy. I put the armor upgrade on him to help.  Question, when the upgrade part says "if this model moves" does that only mean a Move action or any type of push/place/etc? 

New Marcus reminds me of M2E Colette, who originally got me into Malifaux. Consider my opinion changed and I'm curious so see how well I can do with Marcus, if I can solve some of the survivability/movement issues and with Marcus in particular.

[Nikodemus]

re.Claim Jump: Claim Jump can only be chosen for "non-Leaders". Haven't figured out an obvious CJ model yet for the crew.

re: Protected: I like using Jackalope. It's trivial to hit Marcus' roar for +3 or +4" movement on it. It  can double walk 8" (or 10") and leap for an extra ~7" on top of that. Remember that Lamarckian Evolution applies to all duel totals, ie. Leap included. This is why I often prioritise 2 upgrades on Jackalope to get it up to effective stat6 on most things.

re: Chimeramancy on Living: oh god no.

re: Ferdiy the not-Beast: Yeah, that's one thing you need to learn early with the crew. Some models are Chimera. Some are Beast. Some are both. Occasionally neither. Really look at where your abilities work since some specify a Beast, or Chimera, or either. as target  eg. Myranda's awesome awesome heal only works on Beasts, while her Df aura only works on Chimera.

re: Jackalope: It's great

re:Movement: "Moving" is a generic term for all move effects, be that "walk", "push", "place" or other "movement". (see rules pdf page 14 under "Moving").

Note that Replaced models inherit all "gamestates" and whatnot of the original model, so if for example you charge with armoured Myranda and then shift her into a whatever before ending her activation, that whatever doesn't get shielded since it "inherits" Myranda having moved during that same activation. I know you didn't ask that but thought I'd throw this in too. I remember this being less than obvious in some past thread.

[KingCrow]

54 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

re.Claim Jump: Claim Jump can only be chosen for "non-Leaders". Haven't figured out an obvious CJ model yet for the crew.

re: Protected: I like using Jackalope. It's trivial to hit Marcus' roar for +3 or +4" movement on it. It  can double walk 8" (or 10") and leap for an extra ~7" on top of that. Remember that Lamarckian Evolution applies to all duel totals, ie. Leap included. This is why I often prioritise 2 upgrades on Jackalope to get it up to effective stat6 on most things.

re: Chimeramancy on Living: oh god no.

re: Ferdiy the not-Beast: Yeah, that's one thing you need to learn early with the crew. Some models are Chimera. Some are Beast. Some are both. Occasionally neither. Really look at where your abilities work since some specify a Beast, or Chimera, or either. as target  eg. Myranda's awesome awesome heal only works on Beasts, while her Df aura only works on Chimera.

re: Jackalope: It's great

re:Movement: "Moving" is a generic term for all move effects, be that "walk", "push", "place" or other "movement". (see rules pdf page 14 under "Moving").

Note that Replaced models inherit all "gamestates" and whatnot of the original model, so if for example you charge with armoured Myranda and then shift her into a whatever before ending her activation, that whatever doesn't get shielded since it "inherits" Myranda having moved during that same activation. I know you didn't ask that but thought I'd throw this in too. I remember this being less than obvious in some past thread.

Whoops! My bad about the claim jump on Marcus.  Still learning all the things with M3E. Lol.  Maybe Myranda changing into a Mauler would be a good CJ model?

How are you getting so many upgrades on the Jackalope? Are you just doing it each turn until you have 2 by turn two? 3 by turn three? The Chimerancy action cannot target the same model more than once per activation. 

Why not Chimerancy on Living models? As a master of genetic(?) manipulation, seems like he should be able to add his upgrades on models if you're willing to pay the soulstone tax.

With all the having to juggle keyword around, it makes me wish that the upgrade did like they did in the Beta and gave out the Beast (or was it Chimera?) keyword to models that received an upgrade from Marcus. 

Thanks about the "movement" clarification.  Makes things clearer but also a bit harder to obtain the shielded on models in a Marcus crew since they want to move so much. 

 

[Nikodemus]

5 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

Whoops! My bad about the claim jump on Marcus.  Still learning all the things with M3E. Lol.  Maybe Myranda changing into a Mauler would be a good CJ model?

Myranda is a potential CJ model yes. Bear likewise, though my bear has had rotten luck when it comes to red joker damages against it so far. I'm thinking maybe a Blessed (either via Myranda or not). Hop to the centre when I can to score 1VP, then hop back in t5 to get 2nd VP. It's pretty mobile so should be able to stay alive and do useful stuff in-between CJ scoring.

2 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

How are you getting so many upgrades on the Jackalope? Are you just doing it each turn until you have 2 by turn two? 3 by turn three? The Chimerancy action cannot target the same model more than once per activation. 

Yup. My standard so far has been 2x Chimeramancy on t1 with mask trigger (so that's 4 models upgraded). Then at least one Chimeramancy + trigger on t2 (on Jackalope and whatever else). Most things get just one upgrade and I'll stone for the mask trigger if I have to to get them spread around quickly. I don't usually have AP to give Jackalope (or anything else) a third upgrade on t3 onwards, but if it happens it happens. 

6 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

Why not Chimerancy on Living models? As a master of genetic(?) manipulation, seems like he should be able to add his upgrades on models if you're willing to pay the soulstone tax.

Fluff-wise maybe yeah. But I see that as a balance nightmare waiting to happen. I'm very much in favour of a few game-y restrictions here 'n there to keep things more manageable for the dev team. An example that springs to mind is Fransisco in 2e. Could give +2 df & wp to any model in its crew. I don't know if it did, but going by forum chatter it may have impacted how guild models, masters included, were designed after it since everything had to be statted with the expectation that Fransisco could come along to buff it by 2. I don't want every living Arcanist model to be restricted in design due to the possibility of them getting extra buffs in a Marcus crew. I also don't want any arcanist model to become broken filth due to getting buffs from mutations.

Arguably OP and UP models still happen so I can see why some people don't even consider this to be an issue. I wouldn't cry foul if Wyrd did allow mutating all living models, but for now I'm happy they don't.

19 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

Thanks about the "movement" clarification.  Makes things clearer but also a bit harder to obtain the shielded on models in a Marcus crew since they want to move so much. 

Yeah it's not free shielded. Paul Crockett is a good one, he has a 14" gun without movement shenanigans. I guess you can setup things by having Marcus tell friends to charge and then just attack on those models' own activation. Marcus and support Myranda can pull it off more easily, though nowhere near consistently with how I like to play them. I mostly just use the upgrade for the armour +1. Goes nicely with the bear since htw + arm1 is a neat combo.

One unfortunate rules thing is that models that charge count as having moved even if they charge 0". So I can't have horned bears hitting their 2/4/5 on a +flip and still get shielded.

[Ogid]

Glad to know it's working! Just curious, what did you use as condition removal back up?

8 hours ago, KingCrow said:

- Marcus seems to be left behind so he needs to have a dedicated protector or something to shunt damage on to.  I used Cojo to Toss Marcus up behind a few Beasts turn 1 and turn 2 they were sent charging with 2 upgrades a piece on them.  My opponent sent Archie into my backline (read - dead Saboteur) and I was surprised he didn't leap into Marcus and start beating him. Need to find a way to keep a Beast near him.

I've not tried it, but the initiates looks like great beasts to keep near if you need an extra bodyguard for him. They have Aspect of the Wild, that's an extra card per turn, with only 2 mutations the Chimera strike becomes a 3/4/5 damage track (and they can discard a mutation for the suit if needed), and they have stampede for an extra point of damage. Plus as they are also beast, if things gets really hairy, Marcus may redirect attacks to them.

8 hours ago, KingCrow said:

- Never got a chance to swap Ferdinand to the Beast but I think my opponent was a little apprehensive to allow him the opportunity to change. Also, why is Ferdinand not a Beast? Was rude to find out he wasnt as I had been keeping him close to Marcus for shielded and possible damage shunt.

Even without being a beast I think the human profile is my favourite, Marcus has other very good choices to go balls deep, but not that many ranged threats. His spell deals a lot of damage with great triggers on top of it (and attacking Wp); intimidating autority is solid if you have some draw, and his bonus is a great support ability; but it's always nice to be able to turn into the beast to heal a bit and to go town when needed. And he has other shenanigans in human form, like charging one of your own beast after shielding them (better if the target has Armor) to make that beast charge/attack.

[Nikodemus]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

I've not tried it, but the initiates looks like great beasts to keep near if you need an extra bodyguard for him. They have Aspect of the Wild, that's an extra card per turn, with only 2 mutations the Chimera strike becomes a 3/4/5 damage track (and they can discard a mutation for the suit if needed), and they have stampede for an extra point of damage. Plus as they are also beast, if things gets really hairy, Marcus may redirect attacks to them.

I'm not entirely convinced by Initiates, but I feel if you're going to hire any you're going to want to run them near Marcus for reasons you pointed out.

I understand they essentially get a "free" mutation (it's not free if Cerberus doesn't get it because of plentiful limitations), so it's hard to just look at their base card. And the guaranteed card draw is nice. But I'm not seeing it on paper. And few times I've tried them they were very, very underwhelming. Admittedly one of those was back in beta when they weren't beasts so some of the crew buffs didn't apply to them. I'm glad they fixed that for release. They just die so easily, and everything else they do requires at least some amount of set up and positioning and whatnot. They're part of a machine and I'm not sure the machine as a whole performs as well as it should.

I really should get 2-3 good games in with them for more data but every time I consider adding them I look at all the other things I can get in the 6-8ss range. Right now it looks like 3x Initiates will be my go-to for "gloves on" newbie games and that's it. Time will tell.

edit:
I don't like passing hits onto them since they're df5 and have no damage reduction natively. By comparison Slateridge Mauler has htw (and I often throw armour+1 on it for other reasons so might as well eat a few hits while it's at it), has good Grit ability and a self heal if things get too rough. Jackalope is nigh unkillable so long as I have cards and it isn't hard countered. I guess if I have to I will, but it's not one of those models I happily pass hits onto.

[Ogid]

The other beasts beat them in any other task by a mile so they could only work like supports/bodyguards near of Marcus and as they are minions as upgrade holders that you want to keep safe... It's true their aren't that good as protected target, but if every other model is getting things done and you want to keep someone near of Marcus; I'd pick them to at least get something out of the bodyguard (one card each turn); putting camouflage in Marcus and Armor in them would make him quite hard to kill.

I'll test them, but it's true they doesn't seem like the ultimate minon tbh... they could had used a minor buff like df6 for example

[KingCrow]

12 hours ago, Ogid said:

Glad to know it's working! Just curious, what did you use as condition removal back up?

When my opponent declared Yan Lo, I figured I didn't have to worry about conditions as much because other than handing out Staggered, the crew doesn't deal very much with conditions. So I instead brought a Hoarcat and Saboteur in place of the Oxforidan Mage/Effigy.  

What are everyone's thoughts on bringing the Mechanical Rider with Marcus? While it is not a Beast, it has the damage capability with psuedo-auto trigger to draw cards (needed for all the discards in the crew), it can get Marcus out of tough spots with Ride With Me (perhaps the main reason for bringing it and useful to keep Marcus up with the rest of the crew - saving AP to throw up upgrade/charge other Beasts), can be tanky and can place different types of Markers at range.  The only concern is the cost and thus going down to 7 models in a crew. 

Are there any other models in Arcanists that allow for such rapid movement of other models like the MR does? 

Next time I play this, I may take out Ferdinand and the Saboteur to try the Rider. 

Also, I agree that the initiate just doesnt seem that great on paper.  It just doesnt seem to have any direction as a model and tries to fill roles of what we already have.  It almost feels like a weaker Myranda and has no individuality.  Nothing really sets it apart from other models.  Using a 7 cost model as a bodyguard seems quite expensive but would almost be worth it if their Call of the Wild action actually worked on Marcus.  Then you would have a bodyguard that could fully support the Master and be worth 7 stones.  Also, just realized that the Initiate isnt even a Beast so it cant be a damage shunt or forced to move/charge.  There is no reason to ever bring this model!!! But... I'll have to give one a try here sometime although I dont have high expectations. 

Lastly, it kinda irks me off that I have to worry about who is Chimera and who are Beasts in the same Keyword crew.  Seems like I have to play a juggle game in my own crew when there are crews like the Viks that have everything affect everyone. It just seems like a bad idea and I'm surprised it wasn't caught during the beta testing.  I wonder if those actions that clarify Beast or Chimera only should just say both to make the crew mesh easier. Or have the upgrades give models the Beast and/or Chimera trait/keyword to at least have the option of using abilities on other models. This feels to me like the easiest way to fix this issue.