State of Ten Thunders 3rd: prerelease discussion

[Jesy Blue]

1 hour ago, Cursed25 said:

Tanuki can't give focus +3 to a model except if this model has other conditions. Because with sober up you have to remove a condition if he has one.

Disagree.  Its a separate sentence.

Quote

End one Condition on the target. If the target is a friendly model,  it gains  Focused +1.

The fist part is not in italics which would indicate a requirement.

[Cunning]

But it's not optional.  It doesn't say you may remove a condition.

So if the model has nothing else, you end the focused on it.

This of course assumes you're trying to stack focussed on the same model.  You could give 1 model focussed +2 and another +1

[zavros]

1 hour ago, whodares said:

Regarding Asami I was actually suprised you said none of her crew really stand out. I really like Ama no Zako because she is mobile and harder to take down than one might expect. The Flicker mechanic also allows her to take at least 2 duels with a "free" focus without poofing out. The main downside of Ama is that she doesn't have any ranged attacks, but a model should not have all the options available; I think Ama is very well balanced with clear strengths and weaknesses, which already makes me like her even more.

I'm also a fan of Bettari as she's the thematic counter to Resistance Trigger masters. Imagine how easy certain would be killed if they can't call a Defense Trigger. Mobility tricks via Summoning (via Asami) allow her to get into the thick of things or out of problematic situations and Diving Charge allows for some rather interesting options as well. While her damage track is not great, Flicker and the rams Triggers can allow you to cheat in that severe if needed.

 

I really like both these models in their current form. From a design standpoint both have clear strengths and weaknesses, which allow for counterplay. This made me rather amazed when you said none of her crew is standing out and you would prefer to bring in Samurai.

I think ama no zako is reasonable most of the time, but I'm not looking for well balanced models. If your not really trying to do schemes samurai are better. If you are going to do schemes ama is better with dark bargain. The problem more lies with the current set of objectives, its really easy to play something really killy and just do schemes later when you have 5 rounds to work with. Perhaps with this years gaining grounds ama will be better to take because she can do objectives easily.

Bettari is kind of scary but she has no real defenses other than stones. Bettari loses out to any other big model so she has to play around the fringes and hunt scheme runners. It is nice that she can go in on a slippery master without them getting away, a lot has to go right for you to get to that point without immediately dying. Asami tends to hang back a little bit as she is also squishy so I find the summon teleport only useful for disengaging. Also not having a bonus action really hurts. Instead for 1 more point you could bring a samurai who can do pretty much everything you would want. 

I agree that their designs are great and probably balanced, but a lot of models in the game don't feel that way. Particularly in ten thunders they are competing with samurai who also get a free focus every turn and can easily kill models at range and can tank your opponent's big models. 

[whodares]

10 minutes ago, katadder said:

who generally only reaches the end of turn 3 max? need to up your playing speed. always reach turn 5 even in the recent m3e tourney I played.  but if you are only reaching turn 3 then she's even better.

as for your LRM, I prefer a Tanuki for same cost as can put out multiple focus as well if needed, plus condition removal

 

Our local players are very casual as Malifaux is mostly not their main game. They play games once in a blue moon and can barely even remember what their cards even do. I was rolling over these guys with M2E Yan Lo before Wave 5 hit, which is saying quite a lot.

We have a couple of good players and generally it's just the couple of us at round 2-3 which speed things up. It depends on howmany of us actually come to a tournament as we are all working adults with plently of responsabilities. Last tournament was just me and 1 other good player, which meant we didn't really get to play that much. One game didn't even get to Turn 2...

 

 

I unfortunately do not own Tanuki, but they are interesting as well. LRM has more healing capabilities, but Tanuki brings the condition removal. The purpose I have for the model is mainly healing and LRM with his Healing Draughts Ability makes him very interesting for this, as well as the card requirement for his heal being a 6 vs Tanuki's 7. Tanuki on the other hand has a Heal+Focus as a Free Action, which makes it extremely potent when you need a mobile healer.

 

It's certainly a toss-up between which one you want to bring as they both have their advantages

Low River Monk

• Passive AOE Healing via Healing Draughts
• Can store up Chi for a burst heal if required
• 1 AP 8" Heal (requires a 6 for the TN) which has 2 good Triggers: burst Heal (if you have Chi) or Focus

 

Tanuki

• 1 AP 6" Condition cleanse (requires a 7) which gives a friendly model Focus +1
• 0 AP 6" Heal with built-in Focus (requires a 7)
• a lot more durable than LRM if he does get engaged on
  • Bonus points for being able to drop a scheme marker if you hit his defense Trigger
• Is actually still decent in combat

 

I would say LRM is better if you 1) don't want to spend cards, 2) expect to need a burst heal and/or 3) can get a lot of value out of Healing Draughts.

Tanuki is great if 1you 1) need more of a protection model that can get charged, 2) need Condition removal and/or 3) expect to be moving a lot so you don't have AP for a 1AP Heal.

 

 

Does that sound like a reasonable comparison?

[Jesy Blue]

18 minutes ago, Cunning said:

But it's not optional.  It doesn't say you may remove a condition.

So if the model has nothing else, you end the focused on it.

This of course assumes you're trying to stack focussed on the same model.  You could give 1 model focussed +2 and another +1

So what you're say is if an effect that has no effect on a model, you stop everything that that effect is doing going forward?  I want to make sure I understand your point before I find several examples disproving you. 

Because you're saying it's a requirement, when there's no requirements listed in the Action at all; putting and if/or between the two sentences as some kind of joining force, believing a period does not in fact storage the two.  I just want to make sure that is what you are claiming.

[Cunning]

Just now, Jesy Blue said:

So what you're say is if an effect that has no effect on a model, you stop everything that that effect is doing going forward?  I want to make sure I understand your point before I find several examples disproving you. 

Because you're saying it's a requirement, when there's no requirements listed in the Action at all; putting and if/or between the two sentences as some kind of joining force, believing a period does not in fact storage the two.  I just want to make sure that is what you are claiming.

No, i'm claiming that if you are trying to stack focussed on a model using sober up, the first time works fine, the second time, the only condition on the model is focussed +1.  So that focussed +1 would be ended then the next one applied.  Unless they have some other condition on them already, sober up cant be used to stack focussed.

[bedjy]

4 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

So what you're say is if an effect that has no effect on a model, you stop everything that that effect is doing going forward?  I want to make sure I understand your point before I find several examples disproving you. 

Because you're saying it's a requirement, when there's no requirements listed in the Action at all; putting and if/or between the two sentences as some kind of joining force, believing a period does not in fact storage the two.  I just want to make sure that is what you are claiming.

Nope, you just read the text as it comes. If it says you do something, you just do it. If it says you may do something, you "may" do it.
And if there is a non-italic part you can't resolve, that's not a problem, just go ahead.

[yames]

He's saying the remove a condition is not optional. Once you cast it if they have a condition you remove it. Focus is a condition so you would remove focus then give them focus 1.  If you don't have a condition you skip it and just add focus. 

[Mycellanious]

26 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Disagree.  Its a separate sentence.

The fist part is not in italics which would indicate a requirement.

Italics indicates a *cost*, it is a requirement in the sense that if you cannot pay it you cannot use the ability, or at least dont get any additional effects - p.12

 

You can check the detailed timing section on p. 23, which states that each part of an action is resolved in order. Nothing indicates that you can ignore part of an action, unless it cannot be resolved (if the target had no conditions, you skip removing a condition).

[whodares]

16 minutes ago, zavros said:

I think ama no zako is reasonable most of the time, but I'm not looking for well balanced models. If your not really trying to do schemes samurai are better. If you are going to do schemes ama is better with dark bargain. The problem more lies with the current set of objectives, its really easy to play something really killy and just do schemes later when you have 5 rounds to work with. Perhaps with this years gaining grounds ama will be better to take because she can do objectives easily.

100% agree. Schemes now only require 2 Turns to give you full points which allows you to go full kill mode for 3 Turns and still be able to score all Victory Points.

18 minutes ago, zavros said:

Bettari is kind of scary but she has no real defenses other than stones. Bettari loses out to any other big model so she has to play around the fringes and hunt scheme runners. It is nice that she can go in on a slippery master without them getting away, a lot has to go right for you to get to that point without immediately dying. Asami tends to hang back a little bit as she is also squishy so I find the summon teleport only useful for disengaging. Also not having a bonus action really hurts. Instead for 1 more point you could bring a samurai who can do pretty much everything you would want. 

Bettari is scary for certain types of models, but most of them don't really fear her that much. She's really made to tear through models that nobody else has a clear solution for, but that means she suffers against the rest. Nothing feels quite as good as getting the Rams Trigger on a Master and then hitting severe. Goodbye half your health. Back when Asami gave out Fast instead of Focus, I actually had Bettari one-Turn a Master because she turned off Resistance Triggers and disabled Soulstones. I did spend 2 stones and a high Ram + 2 lucky severe flips, but I certainly felt the power and threat she has to those types of models.

I also try to look for ways to play Bettari aggressively via the Summoning positioning. She can get up to 8" if you summon a 30mm base model, which can open up interesting Charge lanes. Bonus points if she is within 3" of Asami (never happens though) when she charges as she can just place herself then. I've managed to combine her Diving Charge with Asami's Charge Place to go after models which I shouldn't have been able to reach.

Bettari is a glass cannon that rewards creative use of Abilities. Sometimes it works and sometimes it ends rather ... miserably.

 

26 minutes ago, zavros said:

I agree that their designs are great and probably balanced, but a lot of models in the game don't feel that way. Particularly in ten thunders they are competing with samurai who also get a free focus every turn and can easily kill models at range and can tank your opponent's big models. 

Normally I would say Samurai is being held back by the gun symbol in his ranged attack, but the Free focus pretty much negates that. He already has a built-in + on attack as well, so shooting into a Concealment Engagement still puts you on a straight flip for attack and a + for damage. Samurai are indeed very good right now, but I'm not a fan of the out-of-theme they represent. If I have a viable model in the crew, I would take that model instead of the optimized one. Tournament-wise though, the correct choice would be to bring the optimized model.

[Mycellanious]

18 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

So what you're say is if an effect that has no effect on a model, you stop everything that that effect is doing going forward?  I want to make sure I understand your point before I find several examples disproving you. 

Because you're saying it's a requirement, when there's no requirements listed in the Action at all; putting and if/or between the two sentences as some kind of joining force, believing a period does not in fact storage the two.  I just want to make sure that is what you are claiming.

No, but the rules only say you can only ignore a part of an action when it is impossible to complete that effect. So if a model has the focus condition and there are no other conditions that can be removed, you must remove focus. This is because focus is a condition that can be removed, so you do not skip the "remove a condition" part of the action

P.23

[DeleteAccount]

My beef with Bettari is the lack of any bonus action and that we have an upgrade that gives any model her main selling point. Won't say anything about Ama since I haven't really paid attention to her.

[Jesy Blue]

Oh, I misunderstood.  I thought y'all were saying if there's not a condition at all you couldn't do the second part.  Like, do Sober Up on a model without any conditions first would not get focus because it has no condition to remove. 

I see, where we're all arguing for no reason now!

So what you could do is....

1) Sober Up, get the trigger, adds Focus +1 & Poison +2.

2) Sober Up, remove Poison, add Focus +1, whether you get the trigger is irrelevant.

3) Foul-Mouthed Motivation to heal and give Focus +1.

+3 Focus to a single model.

 

No problems, nothing to see here, move along!

[whodares]

17 hours ago, Razhem said:

My beef with Bettari is the lack of any bonus action and that we have an upgrade that gives any model her main selling point. Won't say anything about Ama since I haven't really paid attention to her.

YMMV but I've done some rather nasty things when the upgrades got shown. One of it was giving Bettari Masked Agent and keeping her and another beater (Ama No Zako is this case) close together. While she loses the Unnerving Presence as she already has it, she can actually Charge models out of Engagement or into another Engagement. Managed to surprise several people like that by just charging straight though half their crew and dropping both Bettari and Ama next to their master. Needless to say, that did not end well for said master model.