Facing new Titania - rant on how overloaded a kit can be

[Ludvig]

Throwing in Pandora seems like a decent deterrent, she can copy the action but has better range and stat than Titania. I'm guessing Titania is likely to be near her own markers. 

Zoraida has a pretty similar action. It's not a place but it doesn't need a marker nearby and she can arc it across a solid building as long as she has a swamp fiend or voodoo target on the other side so she can get over 24 inches of range ignoring Los at least partly. 

[Barmution]

5 minutes ago, whodares said:

Aren't you the guy who was defending the blatantly OP Nicodem and Sanddeep together with Teddybear? Because I actually got my point there when they nerfed both those masters and made them more managable...

Nope, that wasn't me. But you've nicely illustrated that your main motivation for these posts is to get your points. Congratulations on your previous points.

[whodares]

1 minute ago, Barmution said:

Nope, that wasn't me. But you've nicely illustrated that your main motivation for these posts is to get your points. Congratulations on your previous points.

No, the point I was trying to make is that I was actually correct in my assumption that they were both too strong. Some of the other things I've gotten (with the help of the forum) accomplished was in Closed Beta getting Hamelin in an actual playing state (weak as he may be though now), Lynch rework, Melee attack on Gwyneth, Zoraida rework, Asami rework/changes and Yan Lo rework. Those are recent things that were accomplished because people started to speak about the elephant in the room.

So yes, I do think I generally have an opinion that seems to make sense. That doesn't take away that I've missed completely a couple of times, but for the most part I've always been on the right track.

[Ludvig]

Pandora could bring her Poltergeist as well. It eats an awful lot of markers if it survives to get close enough.

I'm not sure what the odds are of an errata to a card after printing but before it hits the shelves in stores. It feels like this will need a few months to shake out. The beta forums just closed, I believe it took at least a year of m2e for any fixes to occur after the beta was done.

[Adran]

33 minutes ago, whodares said:

I agree with the fact that you always need cards to hit. the thing is that the probability of your opponent getting those cards is pretty close to 0. If you can get your opponent to Injured 3, he will probably have already burned several of his high cards (and you too) to try and stop it. From then on, your medium cards can block out most of his cards.

I'm using guaranteed here because you just have to face reality. If you can't win a flip with a 4-5 stat difference, you were just incredibly unlucky. The point is you have to spend pretty close to no cards once you actually get a couple of Injured stacks on your opponent, thus the action nets you:

• decent damage
• displacement
• Injured stacks
• card advantage
• (healing if you choose this instead of displacement)

 

Isn't that just a bit too much for a single action to do?

Since I told you the probability of winning a duel when you're down 6 on the stat, and its 19.5% (based on 2 new decks), which isn't very close to 0.  If your opponent has been holding his good to medium cards to cheat, then yes, you may well lose those duels even though you were winning on the flip. If you're 3 down you can expect to win about 25% of the time.  That is the reality. If you don't win a flip with a 4-5 bonus then that's fairly common (As I said if you are 6 up you still only win 4 out of 5 flips). It feels like you're unlucky, but you're not, its just how probability is.

I disagree with your list, mainly because you are trying to use the same advantages multiple times.

The Action is a decent damage range, with a good range and no gun symbol. It also applies a debuff. which helps you win further duels against the model this turn. It gains bonus to hit and avoiding Concealing when you are in severe terrain

It has a non built in trigger that ups the damage and allows you to place the model WHEN the model is in a certain location.

It has a non built in trigger to heal.

 

Your issue (as I see) is with the interaction between the Action and the Trigger. (And The Bonus action which allows her to move a underbrush marker up to your model to allow you to get the trigger).

 

With Similar resources,

Lucius can do more damage and Injured (Hidden sniper). (he doesn't need to move himself he can use other models for range and LOS so saving the walk AP). 

Zoraida can do  similar damage (and injured) and possibly move the model without having to spend her action on moving either or needing a trigger (Hex)

Basse has a blast producing shot gun that does 3 blast damage as a weak, and can do multiple Injured as a trigger to everything damaged by his blasts

Justice can be doing up to 3 injured on her decay per attack with blasts and can have leapt to not have had to have moved.

When you look at those other options, I don't think the whole package looks out of alignment. That is 5 masters across 2 factions (That I happened to have the files open) that can do Damage and Injured at range, and I don't think Titanias is the best of those actions at either injured production or damage. I can list occasions when it is better than each of the other of the listed actions, but also times when its worse.

 

That said, the purpose of this thread is to discuss. Can we all remember that we are discussing the game to make it good, even if we disagree with the points someone else has raised, we should not just resort to insulting the other forum users. Thank you

[TeddyBear]

1 hour ago, whodares said:

Aren't you the guy who was defending the blatantly OP Nicodem and Sanddeep together with Teddybear?

Hey! i dind't interfere this time why do you call me?  

anyway @whodares there are still not enough elements to estabilish if titania is overpower, only with time we will see, and certainly you have your opinion but more opinions are needed.

My advice is that you should face her more. I have used her a lot and among neverborn, but also in other factions, there are models that can counter her game. The problem is not even concealment, but are severe terrains; try to choose models that ignore severe terrains, like hooded rider, bad juju, flying models like young nephilim ( which also has a positive flip built-in for htw)

If you have fear of conditions remeber that Serena is your friend! Also Eldritch Magic can help a lot. And with dreamer try to play with more incorp. models.

if you have Pandora, you can use one Poltergeist action that remove all markers in range pulse 4" (if i remeber well) maybe it can help also.. and Pandora's models, in their game often flip with positive.

try to complain less, and try deal with her more often, and forget about m2e nicodem or sandeep, that there where even worse masters, and it's still an old story

[whodares]

20 minutes ago, Adran said:

Since I told you the probability of winning a duel when you're down 6 on the stat, and its 19.5% (based on 2 new decks), which isn't very close to 0.  If your opponent has been holding his good to medium cards to cheat, then yes, you may well lose those duels even though you were winning on the flip. If you're 3 down you can expect to win about 25% of the time.  That is the reality. If you don't win a flip with a 4-5 bonus then that's fairly common (As I said if you are 6 up you still only win 4 out of 5 flips). It feels like you're unlucky, but you're not, its just how probability is.

I disagree with your list, mainly because you are trying to use the same advantages multiple times.

The Action is a decent damage range, with a good range and no gun symbol. It also applies a debuff. which helps you win further duels against the model this turn. It gains bonus to hit and avoiding Concealing when you are in severe terrain

It has a non built in trigger that ups the damage and allows you to place the model WHEN the model is in a certain location.

It has a non built in trigger to heal.

 

Your issue (as I see) is with the interaction between the Action and the Trigger. (And The Bonus action which allows her to move a underbrush marker up to your model to allow you to get the trigger).

I agree with you partially here. I'm not arguing about the win percentage you have here as you've already got those figured out and I trust you on those being correct. I'm arguing on the fact that you can pretty much force anything to go through with minimal card investment and that Titania has an extremly easy time in setting this up.

As you said: if your opponent has been holding onto good cards, he can stop you. Do you honestly believe he will not use a couple of those good cards to stop the initial Injured stacking to begin with? Even then, his 13 is only worth around a 7 on your part to even stop. Now let's be more realistic and say he puts you on Injured 3. His 13 is worth your 10. Even if he gets lucky and wins the flip with a non-severe, you can pretty much shut him out with a 7 as chances are very likely he doesn't have anymore severe cards in hand. Even then, trading a 7 for a severe is an extremely good deal.

 

I don't mind the interaction between the Free Action and Awakened Hunger at all. I just think Awakened Hunger has too much going on for it if you hit the Trigger. An action that has this much displacement potential should not be doing (with the Trigger) min 3 damage AND make it easier afterwards to keep doing thesame thing via Injured.

You can pretty much turn the Trigger into a separate Action entirely and both Awakened Hunger AND the new Action would still be worth using. That's what I feel is wrong with it.

 

30 minutes ago, Adran said:

With Similar resources,

Lucius can do more damage and Injured (Hidden sniper). (he doesn't need to move himself he can use other models for range and LOS so saving the walk AP). 

Zoraida can do  similar damage (and injured) and possibly move the model without having to spend her action on moving either or needing a trigger (Hex)

Basse has a blast producing shot gun that does 3 blast damage as a weak, and can do multiple Injured as a trigger to everything damaged by his blasts

Justice can be doing up to 3 injured on her decay per attack with blasts and can have leapt to not have had to have moved.

When you look at those other options, I don't think the whole package looks out of alignment. That is 5 masters across 2 factions (That I happened to have the files open) that can do Damage and Injured at range, and I don't think Titanias is the best of those actions at either injured production or damage. I can list occasions when it is better than each of the other of the listed actions, but also times when its worse.

Lucius has a gun symbol, so it actually has counterplay. While he can ignore cover, he can't ignore Concealing, nor can he ignore Friendly Fire. The base damage track is worse and he can only catch up to Titania's medium and severe by using both a stone and a suited card. While it's true that he can use his 3 AP from Turn 1 to shoot at things, he can't keep doing that and the gun symbol provides very clear counterplay to it. He also doesn't have the displacement or the healing/cleanse potential which Titania has on her attack.

Basse has a gun symbol as well. He does not have Injured by default as it's a Trigger. If both Basse and Titania hit their Trigger, they actually have thesame single model damage potential, with Basse obviously going for the Injured blasts. His counterplay is once again the gun symbol, which means Concealing, Cover and Friendly Fire ruin his day. He does have Gunfighter, so locking him in melee will not completely hold him back. He does lose the range advantage at that point though, which is something Titania does not need to worry about.

Justice can indeed do 3 Injured on a single blast attack with Decay, thesame Action Aeslin has. In order to get 3 Injured, you need to burn a stone and a Suited card though. The attack is also "only" a stat 5, which makes it inherently a lot easier to stop than a stat 6 attack. This attack also has lower damage and no displacement possibilities. Also keep in mind you can stone away the Injured with your prevention flip, while Titania does not allow for this. A damage track of 2/2/3 does allow for the scenario of negation to happen.

 

42 minutes ago, Adran said:

When you look at those other options, I don't think the whole package looks out of alignment. That is 5 masters across 2 factions (That I happened to have the files open) that can do Damage and Injured at range, and I don't think Titanias is the best of those actions at either injured production or damage. I can list occasions when it is better than each of the other of the listed actions, but also times when its worse.

Once again, I agree partially with you. She's not the best in either damage not Injured spreading. the thing is she does both these thing at thesame time (like Lady J) and still has other effects that can go off at thesame time which are worthy of being a separate Action entirely. Titania is extremely cost efficient and gives a very high reward for a minimal investment.

[whodares]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Throwing in Pandora seems like a decent deterrent, she can copy the action but has better range and stat than Titania. I'm guessing Titania is likely to be near her own markers. 

Pandora does indeed seem very nice, but I've got 2 questions regarding the text "Choose one of the target's non-Shockwave Attack Actions. This Action gains the effect, cost, and any special restrictions of the chosen Action. Enemy only.".

1. Since it's in italics, it's the "cost" that must always be fulfilled to take this action. I'm guessing this also means Pandora can ignore Concealment as Titania's Awakened Hunger also allows her to ignore that?
2. Since you mentioned she outranges Titania, I can take it that Range is not counted as either effect or special restriction? My local group does not have many Pandora players, so I never really got to play properly against her.

While Pandora does seem like a nice counter, we do have to keep it mind this only works if she is directly going for Titania. She can only steal an Action of the model she's actively targetting. I will not digress further on Pandora as I'm only responding to the specific Action you mention here.

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Zoraida has a pretty similar action. It's not a place but it doesn't need a marker nearby and she can arc it across a solid building as long as she has a swamp fiend or voodoo target on the other side so she can get over 24 inches of range ignoring Los at least partly. 

I could write an essay on what I think is wrong with Zoraida (and her crew) and on howmany levels I think she is overtuned right now. If I'm ever running a dual-master Neverborn list, Zoraida will probably be the second Master I bring. Zoraida is THE master when it comes to opponent disruption as she has both model and hand disruption. Having that Stat 7 Obey on such a range with a Trigger to do a double Obey is massive. By investing a single stone/suited card and 1 AP per Turn, you can effectively shut a model completely down for every Turn you do this. You can even force his own models to kill his own crew.

One can argue Zoraida can only have a limited number of high cards in hand, but nothing is stopping you from using her Free Action, Threads of Fate, in the middle of her Activation and refresh her hand with a possibility of getting more severe cards.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, whodares said:

No, the point I was trying to make is that I was actually correct in my assumption that they were both too strong. Some of the other things I've gotten (with the help of the forum) accomplished was in Closed Beta getting Hamelin in an actual playing state (weak as he may be though now), Lynch rework, Melee attack on Gwyneth, Zoraida rework, Asami rework/changes and Yan Lo rework. Those are recent things that were accomplished because people started to speak about the elephant in the room.

So yes, I do think I generally have an opinion that seems to make sense. That doesn't take away that I've missed completely a couple of times, but for the most part I've always been on the right track.

It's pretty easy to be right when you're saying the same thing literally everyone else was saying. Anyone that looked at Gwyneth's card for 3 seconds before she had an engagement range wondered why she didn't have one. Which Lynch rework? Which Asami Rework? Which Yan Lo rework? Which Zoraida rework? All of those masters got significant changes multiple times throughout the closed beta. Taking even partial credit for any of them getting changed even once is laughable at best.


Really this whole thread on Titania reminds me of your take on wave 5 Titania. How'd that turn out for you?


TL;DR, take advice from the people that have been actively playing with and against Titania literally months longer than you have and don't rate your experience in one game where you admitted you went in blind as so vastly superior to literally everyone else's. Or don't and keep beating your wardrum.


As an aside, I was the one arguing with you about Nicodem and Sandeep. And no, I was never saying they weren't above the cruve. I was saying they weren't the auto-wins that you claimed they were.

[Ludvig]

@whodares since Pandy has a range and stat I guess she uses those to target but then takes the rest of the text from the action she borrows, otherwise it should be listed as range X and stat X. Since Titanias action itself mentions ignoring concealment you would get to use that as part of the attack. 

I guess I'll need to try some Titania + Zoraida dual lists. 😀

 

[whodares]

10 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

It's pretty easy to be right when you're saying the same thing literally everyone else was saying. Anyone that looked at Gwyneth's card for 3 seconds before she had an engagement range wondered why she didn't have one. Which Lynch rework? Which Asami Rework? Which Yan Lo rework? Which Zoraida rework? All of those masters got significant changes multiple times throughout the closed beta. Taking even partial credit for any of them getting changed even once is laughable at best.

If Gwyneth was really that obvious, why did I have to keep mentioning it day in/day out for 7 weeks before she actually got it?

I was the person who started the initial Lynch debate and his eventual Summon mechanic is pretty close to what I suggested. So yes, for that one I do like to take some part of credit as it's almost a copy-paste of my suggestion.

Asami, Yan Lo and Zoraida did not get multiple crew-wide overhauls at all. But once again I was at the forefront of the closed beta arguing for changes. I do take an ever so small part of credit for those, just like many of the others who argued for changes can and should do. I do not take credit for what these masters have eventually become, but I do take credit for sparking the debate around their flaws in Closed Beta.

 

19 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Really this whole thread on Titania reminds me of your take on wave 5 Titania. How'd that turn out for you?

I still stand by my opinion that Titania was very underrated at the end of M2E and that the Emissary was bringing her to the S-tier of masters. Suitless summoning of Changelings on a 7 should not have been introduced and turned Titania's crew in the semi-summoner territory for outactivating opponents.

 

21 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

TL;DR, take advice from the people that have been actively playing with and against Titania literally months longer than you have and don't rate your experience in one game where you admitted you went in blind as so vastly superior to literally everyone else's. Or don't and keep beating your wardrum.

While I do agree that I'm lacking experience against Titania, some things are very easy to see. I've been playing Malifaux for close to 5 years at this point, which does grant me at least some sort of insight on the functioning of a miniature wargame.

Right now Titania is not given the attention she requires because people are freaking out about Dreamer and Zoraida to a lesser extent (for good reason). I do not expect those masters to stay in their current form and have already been thinking ahead for a Malifaux in which they are not the obvious strongest masters in the faction. I expect Titania to fill that role after those 2 get hit.

[AngelRogue]

Again, the obvious solution to your own Titania problem was available to you in a Dreamer crew. Go back at her with Insidious Madnesses to stop her bonus action from trapping you. Use your incorporal models to move through the underbrush. Move to score VP through schemes that don't require you to confront her head on. Make her move her models in to you instead of dragging you into a pit of underbrush. I think your problem was in your placement choices, your decision in schemes due to not knowing her tricks, and to not use all the tricks in Dreamers own bag. I am saying this a second time because you don't seem to see what was available. You can go back and have a much more successful game with some different decisions on your part. She's tough, but not over powered. There were times in open and closed beta where she wasn't even considered in the top of the Neverborn masters. There were arguments that her crew was too slow for how fast she can move around or that her crew took too much set up. At the start of closed, her entire mechanic was different. 

 

Also, I had a similar reaction to Asami at the start of the closed beta because she could double summon with her summons not being slowed or much of anything. That did get changed, but not because of my knee jerk comments of her being over powered with the closer deployment zones. My point is, take everyone's advise and play against her again and again until you can prove it is too good. You got this.

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, whodares said:

If Gwyneth was really that obvious, why did I have to keep mentioning it day in/day out for 7 weeks before she actually got it?

Because, plainly put, Mason didn't agree with that. There is however no great insight in "Why does this model have an action that stops her from being able to do anything if it succeeds".
 

4 hours ago, whodares said:

I was the person who started the initial Lynch debate and his eventual Summon mechanic is pretty close to what I suggested. So yes, for that one I do like to take some part of credit as it's almost a copy-paste of my suggestion.

You mean it's a very slightly modified version of what he had at the start of the closed beta, and the only difference between what he has now and what Sonnia has had for the entire beta is that it's based on the number of tokens instead of the cost of the model? Surely this is a feat to be lauded as an indication of your intuition about the game.

 

4 hours ago, whodares said:

Asami, Yan Lo and Zoraida did not get multiple crew-wide overhauls at all. But once again I was at the forefront of the closed beta arguing for changes. I do take an ever so small part of credit for those, just like many of the others who argued for changes can and should do. I do not take credit for what these masters have eventually become, but I do take credit for sparking the debate around their flaws in Closed Beta.

You're right, they didn't. In fact, only Asami really got a crew wide overhaul, and Zoraida just got penetrating stench changed around a few times. But the masters themselves got reworked multiple times. Hell the totality of Yan Lo's changed from the start of CB to now only barely qualifies as an overhaul.

 

4 hours ago, whodares said:

I do not take credit for what these masters have eventually become, but I do take credit for sparking the debate around their flaws in Closed Beta.

I can't remember for certain any but Lynch and Gwyneth, but I can say with 100% certainty that you in fact didn't spark the discussion on their then flaws even in our beta group, let the other 2 that existed at the time.

 

4 hours ago, whodares said:

I still stand by my opinion that Titania was very underrated at the end of M2E and that the Emissary was bringing her to the S-tier of masters. Suitless summoning of Changelings on a 7 should not have been introduced and turned Titania's crew in the semi-summoner territory for outactivating opponents.

And still with that revisionist history. Summarizing your opinion of wave 5 Titania as "she's underrated" when your exact words were that she was a jack of all trades with no weaknesses and that no one should ever take any other master in Neverborn. You know, the faction that had Collodi who was easily top 3 in the game and Lilith who was just barely out of top 5 contention.

 

 

4 hours ago, whodares said:

While I do agree that I'm lacking experience against Titania, some things are very easy to see. I've been playing Malifaux for close to 5 years at this point, which does grant me at least some sort of insight on the functioning of a miniature wargame.

 Do you honestly not hear how arrogant and dismissive you sound right now? You're saying that everyone in this thread that has comparable or better experience with Malifaux, while also having significantly more experience with Titania as she is right now are all wrong because apparently your 5 years of playing has made you a savant of determining the power levels of certain masters because reasons. Obviously you're just a better player than everyone else in this thread, and we should all bow down to your wisdom when you're gracious enough to bestow it upon us.


Either way, I'm done.

[whodares]

16 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Because, plainly put, Mason didn't agree with that. There is however no great insight in "Why does this model have an action that stops her from being able to do anything if it succeeds".

But according to you it was so obvious that anyone who actually read the card could realise this should have been included. Yet one of the game designers needed 7 weeks of persuasion before finally adding it. This is basicly slandering Mason's game knowledge. Apparantly this oh so obvious fact was not so obvious to one of the game designers.

19 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You mean it's a very slightly modified version of what he had at the start of the closed beta, and the only difference between what he has now and what Sonnia has had for the entire beta is that it's based on the number of tokens instead of the cost of the model? Surely this is a feat to be lauded as an indication of your intuition about the game.

If you see it took 5-ish reworks of said Action to finally reach this eventual form, then yes. They tried a lot of different nuances to that Action and eventually they almost copy-pasted the one I wrote down. Sometimes the details are what makes a massive difference and that's what happened here.

21 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You're right, they didn't. In fact, only Asami really got a crew wide overhaul, and Zoraida just got penetrating stench changed around a few times. But the masters themselves got reworked multiple times. Hell the totality of Yan Lo's changed from the start of CB to now only barely qualifies as an overhaul.

Asami herself actually did not really change that much. Her crew-wide Ability got shifted around a bit and she traded the Fast for a Focus. That's basicly it for Asami and the majority of complaints were about her Ability and rocket Jorogumo. A bit later also the everlasting Obsidian Oni, which also got rectified rather fast.

Zoraida herself is actually still pretty close to her first iteration and it was mostly a couple of Actions which were shifted around. They also played around with her Swampfiend-targetting thing, but generally she has remained close to thesame.

Yan Lo was mainly his Reliquaries and upgrades which got changed around. In the end the Reliquaries were still considered to be crap until they added the Chiaki godmode, which majorly impacted the crew.

26 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

I can't remember for certain any but Lynch and Gwyneth, but I can say with 100% certainty that you in fact didn't spark the discussion on their then flaws even in our beta group, let the other 2 that existed at the time.

It would be strange for me to be able to start a discussion in the other groups, consideren you were only allowed to be in 1 group. We seem to have a different memory and perhaps different definitions at what "sparking" a discussion means. One does not necessarily have to be a topic starter to actually get a decent discussion going around a theme. Perhaps the confusion comes from here?

29 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

And still with that revisionist history. Summarizing your opinion of wave 5 Titania as "she's underrated" when your exact words were that she was a jack of all trades with no weaknesses and that no one should ever take any other master in Neverborn. You know, the faction that had Collodi who was easily top 3 in the game and Lilith who was just barely out of top 5 contention.

You call me a revisionist, yet can't even remember the topic themselves. Finding something underrated also does not mean I don't find it overpowered. What I meant with underrated is that people are massively underselling her and that she is in fact pretty damn good, even without the Emissary. Then they added the Emissary suitless Changeling summoning onthere and she instantly went another tier up. A properly played M2E Titania (with Emissary) was extremely hard to stop, to even say impossible for a lot of masters in M2E, if both opponents were on thesame skill level.

Collodi was another master which was on a problematic power level, but he was known to be like that. Titania was underrepresented and underestimated due to her bad Wave 5 reception when these same forums were calling her a bottom 5 master. Lilith I do not agree on to be problematic as her crew had plenty of abusable mechanics.

34 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

 Do you honestly not hear how arrogant and dismissive you sound right now? You're saying that everyone in this thread that has comparable or better experience with Malifaux, while also having significantly more experience with Titania as she is right now are all wrong because apparently your 5 years of playing has made you a savant of determining the power levels of certain masters because reasons. Obviously you're just a better player than everyone else in this thread, and we should all bow down to your wisdom when you're gracious enough to bestow it upon us.

I'm saying I have 5 years of experience playing Malifaux and I'm being pretty much treated as a newbie who doesn't understand shit about this game. I have enough experience to have a proper discussion.

If you look at the convo going on between me and Adran and then look at the rest of the people who are so set in stone that I am wrong, it's a difference of night and day. You can't even comprehend the fact that there might just be even a grain of truth in my assumptions and instead resort to attacks on a personal level to try and get a point across. Perhaps you should look at yourself in the mirror and then the discussion we've been having.

[Kharnage]

Well, I played a game into a Titania player during tournament, and tied out because we couldn't play past turn 3, but it gave me my initial opinions of Titania. Her list waaaas...
Titania w/ Inhuman Reflexes
Gorar
Killjoy
Autumn Knight w/ Blood Sacrifice
Autumn Knight w/ Blood Sacrifice
Rougarou
Waldgeist
10 stones
She seems strong, for sure, not going to act like she's not. Most of her defenses and mechanics are negated by flying Nephilim (Nekima can frenzied charge to keep up with Butterfly Jump from Inhuman, and severe terrain can't slow down fliers) and I went for the Gorar first to prevent the respawn mechanic, and then the autumn knights to not have Killjoy respawn, and then the game ended. Basically I was going to pull it out because most of his crew was on the verge of death, but since hold up their forces got to score twice since turn 3 was "end of game" we tied instead of a Reckoning Victory. That being said, if I'm playing into Titania, I'm either picking ranged troops, flying troops, or incorporeal. If you're not able to make any of that happen, then you're playing right into her capable hands. Footslogging melee crews incapable of doing anything else are relatively rare, so I don't think her target demographic is a wide swathe of crews.

Stacking injured can be scary, and if she can farm the crows she can deal some damage, but for the most part I didn't really have any trouble weathering the storm. I lost a mature, but he spent his life preciously, causing like 12-15ish black blood damage to the 4 surrounding models as he went, and Nekima cleaned up. I guess "bleed on 'em" isn't exactly a universally applicable response, but I feel The Dreamer certainly has the tools in his kit to deal with Titania with a consistently appreciable success rate. Serena heals and removes conditions you dread, Insidious Madness can just waltz through terrain, healing their wounds by just, successfully hitting people, and the near-universal hard to wound Fae possess become less and less of a problem as Lucid Dreams sifts the weak damages out of your deck. The Queen's Command and Challenge from the Autumn Knights is just straight up not available if the Dreamer's in the thick of it, which I believe is his right as a Protected, Serene, Incorporeal model with stone use. 

Teddy IMO was a tall waste of stones here, especially with Inhuman Reflexes, as Titania doesn't really care if Teddy Butterfly Jumps with an 8 inch cast range, and Blade Rush isn't good on a 50mm model fighting severe terrain with a no-whistles Mv 5 walk. Additionally, the Bandersnatch is a cool model visually, and technically goes with Widow Weaver because they both make webs, but doesn't really have any impact on a game in my experience. In my opinion, he would have been much more impactful as an Insidious Madness for the same cost, healing fellow engaged Nightmares by attacking Wp instead of Df and having Incorporeal as a boon. 
Lastly, Widow Weaver is much better suited to a list that, well... provides more scrap markers when they die. Teddy is your only construct and assuming you'll kill one of Titania's models for a Stuffing Token in any meaningful amount of time is high hubris based on their defensive suites, and you have to resolve to a slow, grinding victory as Dreamer.  Instead I would have gone with a Stitched Together and more stones for LCB and Dreamer. 
Obviously you can't take everything, but you had several better choices of models to choose from IMO. Butterfly Jump can't save us, so don't bother taking it. I would have gone with something more like
Dreamer 
LCB
Coppelius
Serena Bowman
Insidious Madness
Insidious Madness
Stitched Together
Daydream
Daydream
7 stones
This way, you've got plenty of Lucid Dreaming to do, your front runners ignore terrain and cause harder-to-dodge WP duels to facilitate summons, and you've got a bit of healing and condition removal in your back pocket to immediately counteract what Titania hoped to accomplish. Is it the 100% answer? Probably not, but I think you'll find quite a bit more success.

Overall, I think you just, didn't adapt to your opponent at all, and it showed. Anything can look overpowered if you fail to prepare for it.

[4thstringer]

2 hours ago, whodares said:

But according to you it was so obvious that anyone who actually read the card could realise this should have been included. Yet one of the game designers needed 7 weeks of persuasion before finally adding it. This is basicly slandering Mason's game knowledge. Apparantly this oh so obvious fact was not so obvious to one of the game designers.

If you see it took 5-ish reworks of said Action to finally reach this eventual form, then yes. They tried a lot of different nuances to that Action and eventually they almost copy-pasted the one I wrote down. Sometimes the details are what makes a massive difference and that's what happened here.

Asami herself actually did not really change that much. Her crew-wide Ability got shifted around a bit and she traded the Fast for a Focus. That's basicly it for Asami and the majority of complaints were about her Ability and rocket Jorogumo. A bit later also the everlasting Obsidian Oni, which also got rectified rather fast.

Zoraida herself is actually still pretty close to her first iteration and it was mostly a couple of Actions which were shifted around. They also played around with her Swampfiend-targetting thing, but generally she has remained close to thesame.

Yan Lo was mainly his Reliquaries and upgrades which got changed around. In the end the Reliquaries were still considered to be crap until they added the Chiaki godmode, which majorly impacted the crew.

It would be strange for me to be able to start a discussion in the other groups, consideren you were only allowed to be in 1 group. We seem to have a different memory and perhaps different definitions at what "sparking" a discussion means. One does not necessarily have to be a topic starter to actually get a decent discussion going around a theme. Perhaps the confusion comes from here?

You call me a revisionist, yet can't even remember the topic themselves. Finding something underrated also does not mean I don't find it overpowered. What I meant with underrated is that people are massively underselling her and that she is in fact pretty damn good, even without the Emissary. Then they added the Emissary suitless Changeling summoning onthere and she instantly went another tier up. A properly played M2E Titania (with Emissary) was extremely hard to stop, to even say impossible for a lot of masters in M2E, if both opponents were on thesame skill level.

Collodi was another master which was on a problematic power level, but he was known to be like that. Titania was underrepresented and underestimated due to her bad Wave 5 reception when these same forums were calling her a bottom 5 master. Lilith I do not agree on to be problematic as her crew had plenty of abusable mechanics.

I'm saying I have 5 years of experience playing Malifaux and I'm being pretty much treated as a newbie who doesn't understand shit about this game. I have enough experience to have a proper discussion.

If you look at the convo going on between me and Adran and then look at the rest of the people who are so set in stone that I am wrong, it's a difference of night and day. You can't even comprehend the fact that there might just be even a grain of truth in my assumptions and instead resort to attacks on a personal level to try and get a point across. Perhaps you should look at yourself in the mirror and then the discussion we've been having.

OP, I think you are right.  Whatever experience we are having, your experience is going to be that you can't enjoy a game against titania in her current form.  I suggest you keep your games to a setting that your opponent will respect that limitation, and you should have a more fun time going forward.

[katadder]

5 years experience by itself doesn't always mean alot. Nick Pratt here in the UK has that much experience but he's our top wooden spoon winner.

If you had 5 years experience in a small pond then it's not necessarily good experience but as we dont know your background then saying 5 years experience doesn't justify anything.

All we have seen is you come on here and moan about a master, completely ignoring all the opinions and options that others offer you comfortable in your opinion that you are right.

The fact that everybody else seems opposed to you and this thread is even being posted as an amusement in other locations doesnt seem to effect your thoughts.

Play against her, learn how to beat her by employing ideas posted here and maybe you will see she is not all that

[whodares]

5 minutes ago, katadder said:

All we have seen is you come on here and moan about a master, completely ignoring all the opinions and options that others offer you comfortable in your opinion that you are right.

The fact that everybody else seems opposed to you and this thread is even being posted as an amusement in other locations doesnt seem to effect your thoughts.

I wish these players much succes in their short-sighted world. They are obviously too incompetent to even challenge existing quota and it becomes too hard for them to think outside of the box. I remember people laughing at me when I started talking about Nicodem. I remember people laughing at me on several occasions. In the end it  turned out I was actually right in most of those cases, yet all these butthurt monkeys don't like to hear that.

Close to nobody has actually stopped and thought about what I was actually saying because "The beta test said no prob so she's ok" followed by "I can beat John Scrub so she must be ok" and eventually a "The top players are not using her, that must mean she's fine". Detach yourself from pre-existing judgement as much as possible and look at all the tools a crew has and how easily they can achieve their winning objectives.

But that's probably too hard for many people and instead they like to go with the herd to feel cool and important. Much easier than actually opening your mind and having a discussion.

[katadder]

6 minutes ago, whodares said:

I wish these players much succes in their short-sighted world. They are obviously too incompetent to even challenge existing quota and it becomes too hard for them to think outside of the box. I remember people laughing at me when I started talking about Nicodem. I remember people laughing at me on several occasions. In the end it  turned out I was actually right in most of those cases, yet all these butthurt monkeys don't like to hear that.

Close to nobody has actually stopped and thought about what I was actually saying because "The beta test said no prob so she's ok" followed by "I can beat John Scrub so she must be ok" and eventually a "The top players are not using her, that must mean she's fine". Detach yourself from pre-existing judgement as much as possible and look at all the tools a crew has and how easily they can achieve their winning objectives.

But that's probably too hard for many people and instead they like to go with the herd to feel cool and important. Much easier than actually opening your mind and having a discussion.

I think when everyone is against you including known top players then theres probably a good chance you may be wrong.

Me I had no problems against nicodem in 2e and actually was always happy when an opponent declared him.

I also have no problems with titania in 3e, certainly not to your level.

There have been lots of people trying to have a discussion with you and maybe open your mind but you have stuck to your guns and pretty much described yourself in the quoted text.

As I said your 5 years of experience doesnt mean much unless it has some background.

Even in 3e I have managed around 2-3 games a day for the last 10 days and more previous. I have played and won with titania, I have played and lost with her.i have played against her and won,played against her and lost 

You talk about closed minds but plenty of people have given you options to beat her but always you have excuses and reasons why she cant be beaten and you are right. Yes there probably is a closed mind here but it's not the people you think

[Gnomezilla]

@katadder

Two-three games a day for several days running? How is this even possible?!?! 

[Flippin' Wyrd Jamie]

This has just sort of turned into a passive aggressive mess now which is a shame 

The cards will be printed already so what it is won't change for release

I think it's pretty safe to assume that Wyrd are aware there will be things that may be a little ahead or behind of the curve upon initial release, there was simply too much to test and too wide a range of opinions being given to have it completely spot on but I personally would rather have it released now and let results show what is "OP" and see Wyrd respond to them with appropriate erratas as needed.

I'm not sure I completely agree on your thoughts around Titaina but regardless I'd like to see you take some time to think about and advice around tackling her in m3e and give it another go. Hell, I know I've been rage filled after being curb stomped by stuff in m3e only to reflect on it and go back and beat it 

[katadder]

3 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

@katadder

Two-three games a day for several days running? How is this even possible?!?! 

Night shift worker and wake up far too early for own good 😂 2.5 to 3 hours per game. Also when off then off for 3-4 days at a time.had alot of free time for last 2 weeks as well

Also vassal so can hit people up in multiple time zones (Britain, polish, Aussies, Americans). 

I have no local meta currently so either go to tourneys when I can or play on there which is why I keep it updated.

Has allowed me to see and try out so many masters and crews so hopefully less gotcha moments in the future

[4thstringer]

2 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

@katadder

Two-three games a day for several days running? How is this even possible?!?! 

I'm assuming college student hitting summer break?  Still, I'm quite jealous.

[dannydb]

so just for a second lets talk about another game. 

 

i've just played vs someone who charged a 10 stone model in to a dead doxy to find it was Disguised, then obey the same model to charge a rotten belle (also disguised) the copy cat killer and proceeded to do nothing next to it 

 

the game was then over when i then between the copy cat killer and seamus murdered said 10 stone model turn 1. 

 

why is all this important, because my opponent didn't know what my crew did and walked right in to it. we sat and discussed things after the game and agreed what could have been done differently. and then agreed to have another game some time. 

 

by the sounds of it you  have played a couple of games of m3e at most and have walked in to something and lost because of it. 

 

if you want to throw in the towel after this then malifaux probably isn't the game for you cos there are lots of models that can surprise you and its not going to get any better. 

 

as said by multiple people before Titania isn't that busted, she cant charge and get 3 attacks unlike some masters. she is a defensive 5 master with no armour or shielding. yes butterfly jump is a very very good ability and I think thats more of an issue than anything else in titania's crew, and thats the same with neverborn in general vs titania's crew. 

if you think titania is busted then as said have fun playing vs zorida who can make your models walk and drop explosives from 24 inches away or make you kill your self by throwing idols on to yourside of the battlefield. 

 

or yan lo who by turn 3 is a completely unkillable monster and can summon back half his crew with a single action that doesn't even make him flip

 

or hoffman who can bring an entirely armour 2 crew which cant be reduced.

 

thats just 3 masters 

we haven't talked about seamus and his teleport, focus shoot teleport stuff. or sandeep who can draw stupid amount of cards and dump a focus 2 golem on your face turn 1 or any other silly stuff in the game. 

 

and as for 5 years of experience, your point is compleatly irreverent. m3e is a compleatly different game to m2e and so no one has more than 6 months to a year experience of m3e 

 

if you want to throw your toys out of the pram because you played one game badly and lost fine... I'm sure there are lots of people who would take they toys off your hands for you. yes m3e has issues, there is stuff that is going to have to be errated and FAQ ed and twerked in the next few months probably. I'm not sure titania is one of them

[whodares]

5 minutes ago, katadder said:

I think when everyone is against you including known top players then theres probably a good chance you may be wrong.

Me I had no problems against nicodem in 2e and actually was always happy when an opponent declared him.

I also have no problems with titania in 3e, certainly not to your level.

So basicly you are saying that you were playing against lesser skilled opponents and won, so certainly there was no problem. That's pretty much what you're saying here, considering Nicodem got a major nerf and even then still remained one of the top masters in his faction. It's like I would be saying Yan Lo in M2E was fine for tourneys because I could beat the extremely casual players with it.

8 minutes ago, katadder said:

There have been lots of people trying to have a discussion with you and maybe open your mind but you have stuck to your guns and pretty much described yourself in the quoted text.

You talk about closed minds but plenty of people have given you options to beat her but always you have excuses and reasons why she cant be beaten and you are right. Yes there probably is a closed mind here but it's not the people you think

Plenty of those options have been "Don't go near her markers Turn 1 and 2", which is not a viable solution for such a problem. If you can't touch half the board for several Turns because otherwise you fall into a trap, there just might be a problem.

Other options have been more serious and I have given them feedback on why I do not agree with those options. You know, a discussion. It seems like your idea of a discussion is that there is this magical answer and not being convinced by it means I know nothing and must be a stubborn idiot.

I think Titania is too resource-efficient for the amount of power she can bring to the table. Only Adran actually challenged that by providing other alternatives with similar options and I returned my opinion on why I agree/disagree with him with more examples.