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3E shenlong advice


yames

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With the closing of the open beta forums i guess here is the next best place. All threw open beta i played Jacob lynch (and have his crew down well). but new edition means new master for me. So looking for thoughts on Shenlong.

 

His crew seems slightly squishy with No armor, hard to wound or the like but i suspect as i dive into him ill discover that Chi are a solid defense trick. They do look to have decent damage output (high rivers), Mobility ( wandering rivers) and healing ( low rivers). Charm waders seem awesome if you know your going up against a summoner (especially San Deep).

Any strat/schemes you find that his crew does well or any that you should avoid with him?

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Only played a few games with the Monk crew, few more with Shenlong as a 2nd master. Used latest beta files for them for all those matches. So squarely in the first impressions camp.

My very tldr experience "Shenlong is a god, monks are glass". Chi is great when it works. Effective-stat7 has its perks. But fact of the matter is all your stuff is health=cost and df 4 or 5. No defensive abilities, other than Chi. And you'd really like to be using that Chi actively in a lot of cases.

For me this crew feels really divided between the master and the crew. Shenlong is really durable. Shenlong is a massive damage dealer if your opponent is relying on any sort of "tricks". His ranged attack ignores hard-to-kill and Demise effects, with blast on a severe. His regular attack can trigger to ignore all damage reduction (remember, in 3e this includes ss use). Drunken Kung Fu (Fermented Style) means you're attacking Manipulative and Serene Countenance models on a :+flipand most damage flips will be straight or better. Give him "Masked Agent" upgrade and you now ignore resistance triggers too. Falling Rave Kick (Fermented Style) means even butterfly jump & similar tricks will rarely keep you from keeping on beating.

That unparalleled disregard for defensive tech is why I've taken him as a 2nd master a few times into specific matches.

Crew by contrast is really quite squishy feeling. I mean I've had models survive really long when Chi, Low River heals and occasional bad flip from the opponent has kept them going. But it's always a tense affair. Any hit that goes through does so at full strength. But they are good at what they do. Specifically I've used High, Low and Wandering Rivers. I'm most suspicious of High River Monks. I've not been disappointed by them per se, (hard to be when they're dealing 4+ hits per activation), but it feels like I'm pumping a lot of synergistic actions into them to get them there. Positioning and deployment is important, having everyone positioned just right to benefit from Sensei Yu's and Low River's auras to get essentially free chi. Can't help but feel like I could just grab a versatile beater and get the same or more for a lot less hassle. Time will tell. I'm not bashing them, that's just my gut feeling based on a few first plays.

There's some promising utility monks (Lotus Eaters, Charm Warders) I haven't got to the table yet.

Overall I'd feel ok bringing Monk crew into any strategy. Most risky would be Reckoning, for their perceived squishiness. On the other hand Reckoning encourages survivable models and monks have a lot of "irreducable damage" triggers so they might counter some go-to models for the strat. Monks like their bubble so matches that allow for that are preferred.

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I've been debating if the obsidion statue helps fill the gap of a large tankyish model for the crew but haven't tried it out yet. It has mild burning synergy and can heal itself with good armor. And you could build up burning on one of your models and use Shen long to transfer it to the opponent I believe. Will hopefully be testing it soon

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1 hour ago, yames said:

I've been debating if the obsidion statue helps fill the gap of a large tankyish model for the crew but haven't tried it out yet.

For that role it looks like a fun model. Probably not our best model for it. I have a hard time seeing competition for Samurai in that slot. But for "fun" builds sure. I could see myself enjoying that particular model. Looks like fun one to paint too.

Other consideration for no frills reasonably durable model is Lone Swordsman. With built-in crit goes up to 3/5/6 with armour+1 and hard-to-kill. 

Report back if you get it to the table.

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So i played my first game with shenlong ( didn't get to bring the obsidian statue as i didn't think he fit the scheme pool well). My first thought looking at the models was that i would have to cherry pick when to use Chi. My experience from this game was so far from that.... i had so much of it that i almost always had some to spare. between the free one each activation, rivers conflux and sensi yus shouting orders. Looking forward to see if this hold true of if it was more of a oddity. 

Aspiring students seem like a really good totem.  the ability to copy shenlongs upgrade action was just gravy. i was against Tara so high rivers ruthless was useful and a totem hitting on stat 5 ( 7 with Chi) for 3/4/5 burning 2 seemed solid. and the ability to push models 6 inches was just as useful when he was in wandering river style. as was healing in low river style.

Sensi Yu. OK other then his Auras what do you tend to do with this guy? i felt like i just wasn't getting 9 stones of value out of him. granted he may of helped why i had so much chi and im just not giving him the credit he deserves.

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I had the same feeling about Sensei Yu. I have a feeling he needs to get into the thick of it more to get value out of him. I know I was sort of in 2e mindset (back when he didn't have charge at all). He's actually decently beaty now, in comparison. And he's got built-in trigger to draw 2, then discard 1 cards. I have a feeling that's where it's at. Get into the front line to cover everyone in chi-when-damaged aura and beat faces for card draw. I don't foresee too many Shenlong games in June, but that's what I'll be exploring once I get back on the monk train.

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Well, i'd be pretty cautious playing Shenlong right now, using the current set of rules. Because he was completely changed until the very last moment of the beta and some things were not "ready to print" in my oppinion.
I think his 4 winds push will get a TN and the totems should be at -2, rather than -1... But that's pure speculation !

Sensei Yu is for me a way to refill my hand, I find him pretty usefull for that. I don't rely on him, and he'll probably die, but he will have the job done (drawing and distributing Chi tokens/fasts)

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14 minutes ago, yames said:

I agree on four winds push needing a TN it felt very odd that it did not have one in my game.  But we will see where it ends up. Idk if it's OP not having one as much as it's awkward and feels inconsistent with other pushes.

There is almost always a TN for the push action, and this is by FAR the best push of all !

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  • 4 weeks later...

Try it out :)

I always bring at least one Wandering Monk that will never see any fight and stays back until it is time to put down some schemes . 

Then I bring at least one Low Monk for the healing and a High for the Versatility . Sensei is obviously a must . The rest depends , usually another High . This leaves out space for 1-2 models (depends on you usual cache).

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Gonna piggy back on this thread.

I'm new to the game (not to miniature games) and have been doing 35 stone games to get used to the game play.  Last game I was running the usual 4 of Shen/Yu/2 Students, along with 2 High River, 1 Low, and 1 Wandering. I ran against an Ortega crew with Perdita + totem, Frank/Nino/Santiago, and a hunter. Here were my take aways from it.

1) Chi is extremely strong and plentiful. Consistently spending turns 1-2 with monks nearby Sensei Yu builds chi quickly, and helps turn bad cards in hand into gas. Even when saving it for defense flips, forcing your opponent to burn cards in hand to win makes even the students extremely resource intensive to kill.
2) Shenlong is absurd on his own. He's more than capable of dropping a Henchmen tier model a turn while being tough as nails. Stances are amazingly versatile and he fills any role in your crew when your guys start dropping.
3) The Low River monk blew me away. With bringing Sensei Yu back from the brink twice and the auto healing aura he made up his 4 points cost easily.
4) The Aspiring Students are a kill on sight for your opponents. "Following in his Footsteps" gives you early game mobility to move your monks into position and keeps these guys dangerous into the middle turns. Case in point for this game, a well timed charge with High River Style on Shen equalled out to a total of 6 damage and burning 2 on Perdita. Not bad for a totem.

I'm very excited to keep at it and filling out the monk models, Thunder Archers especially.

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6 hours ago, Occultist said:

1) Chi is extremely strong and plentiful. Consistently spending turns 1-2 with monks nearby Sensei Yu builds chi quickly, and helps turn bad cards in hand into gas. 

I don't know if you were doing it (it's rather unintuitive I think), but you can trigger Sensei Yu's Brutal Sensei aura even when damaged by friendly models.

Students and Low monks have a 1/1/2 +1 Distract weapons. You can whack Shenlong with Students for 1 chi and 1-2 distract (and damage) per Student. Low monk can then heal Shenlong. This nets Shenlong extra chi and he can use Distract as +flips. And against Perdita specifically I guess it's nice to be just below your max health.

Stat8:+flipFor Shenlong's first few attacks is pretty nice:D

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8 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

I don't know if you were doing it (it's rather unintuitive I think), but you can trigger Sensei Yu's Brutal Sensei aura even when damaged by friendly models.

Students and Low monks have a 1/1/2 +1 Distract weapons. You can whack Shenlong with Students for 1 chi and 1-2 distract (and damage) per Student. Low monk can then heal Shenlong. This nets Shenlong extra chi and he can use Distract as +flips. And against Perdita specifically I guess it's nice to be just below your max health.

Stat8:+flipFor Shenlong's first few attacks is pretty nice:D

I'm gonna level with you, I completely forgot until after the game that Brutal Sensei even existed. 🥵 I was missing that ability every time. Even without it I was heavy on Chi the entire game.

I have definitely pulled off the Distracted tech with students before. Watching the bewilderment on my opponent's face is great when they realize a tied win becomes a 3x:+flipis perfection.

EDIT: In response to what to do with Sensei Yu: keeping him at the center of the bubble is important, but I had no issues throwing him into firing lanes to draw some shots (read, waste enemy activations) from Perdita's crew. He's sticky as hell with HtK and a built in heal, and my low river did the rest. It kept a lot of hate off of my Wandering River monk for scheme running.

I definitely get the sense that the Monk crew lives and dies by keeping it's smaller mooks alive to scheme while the Fab 4 (Shenlong, Sensei Yu, and the two Students) play crowd control and damage soak.

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I'm just a bit sad they didn't give a TN to Wandering river Style punch action. It feels very wrong that the student can do it without any chance to fail.
Shenlong is quite a monster, i'll have to play it a bit more.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 7/1/2019 at 3:17 AM, bedjy said:

I'm just a bit sad they didn't give a TN to Wandering river Style punch action. It feels very wrong that the student can do it without any chance to fail.
Shenlong is quite a monster, i'll have to play it a bit more.

In its defense, the push is on a rotating upgrade that requires you to sacrifice more offensive options, model actions, and chi to perform. That said if it does end up being too strong I can see a TN being the best place to start with balancing it.

I don't have the models for it, but any opinions on a crew with 3x Tanuki and Fermented River Monks for poison and tarpitting shenanigans, or are we missing too much Brewmaster tech at this point?

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Shenlong was my most played in 2E, and is probably currently tied for most played in 3E (with Misaki) of my roster.

 

Chi is one of the strongest mechanics in M3E.  The timing and use of it allows another level control over the duel process, in that you declare it's use for the whole duel after you see your flip, and it only adds to your eventual cheat (if necessary).  Monks themselves are pretty squishy, however we do find occasional defensive abilities that make a few quite resilient (butterfly jump on the Wandering River Monks; too drunk to care on Fermented River) - but 10T have some very defensive upgrades in Stealth; and HtK.  Chi allows some of our chumpiest models in the 10T to actually land critical actions on opponents, or perform critical defenses to bleed out opponent AP efficiency.

 

Shenlong himself: Previously mentioned interaction of having the aspiring students spar on Shenlong to start the game giving him distracted to set up potential plus-flips in his 'fermented river style' when he engages his first target; or he can drop it on an enemy beater without giving them an opportunity to resist.  On the topic of Fermented River Style, the Falling Rave Kick listed on the upgrade is a claw attack action; it can be evaluated at the end of a charge push.  The cost of that action is to discard a chi token and then move 6 inches ignoring other models - that's the cost, then we perform a duel.  Shenlong can make contact with a target 12" away, perform a duel to hit them - turns negatives to plus flips on the attack AND damage, is able to game the duel with Chi - finds himself hitting 3 or 5 damage more often than not.  Opponents will think they can game this at first by putting you at a positive flip (which would then be a negative flip) - and quickly realize it's just not worth wasting resources on trying to control Shenlong.  'The Dragon Commands It', has played a critical role in delivering messages, planting explosives, corrupting idols - you name it - it scores VP. 

 

Shenlong's ability to get around model defenses is second to none; when he goes fermented and uses his regular attack, he can stone or card to be irreducible on a trigger; or to Onslaught and gain another chi with a second attack (given that the Chi is built in, and not a trigger) make him one of the best +1 masters we have in hiring to correct our bad matchup calls - or to take advantage of superb matchups, say if my opponent declares Lucius.  Lucius, and other Masters/Models that rely on negative flips as a sole form of defense become priority targets for Shenlong.  His ranged attack ignores friendly fire, hard to kill, and demise abilities.

 

Sensei Yu: The sparring match that starts off above - where aspiring students hit Shen to give him distracted - Sensei Yu allows Shenlong to gain even more chi during these initial  (critical) activations.  Beyond that, Brutal Sensei is circumstantial.  Yu is more defensively capable than your average monk, his push doesn't have a projectile (can use while engaged, no TN, can fire it into combat), Laugh Off, HtK, Chi, Juggernaut - if he isn't teaching "a simple lesson" which is where his value really comes into play.  The TNs are not always achievable; the circumstances dont always lend themselves to min-maxing this hard; but it is possible after setting up other models, to grant 2 fast to other monks per turn - as Shenlong may 'Dragon Commands It'.  Fast on a Wandering River Monk turn 1 or 2 will be across the board and achieving schemes that then have to be un-done, even if the fragile model folds later those turns (still dictating opponent's AP - putting facts on the ground).  He has HtK, decent stats, Chi, SS user, Laugh Off, and a Df based Push you cannot engage to stop - he goes places, he gets you off of them - he seems to have a great sense of humor.  I will agree that he is one of my less taken monks, he doesn't seem critical to me while still a great option.

 

Tanuki and Fermented River Monks are a nice natural combination.  Fermented can charge eachother early game to work some poison up; and then whatever targets they are able to intoxicate are then less able to target Tanuki.  Tanuki are a great versatile take for certain models, not an always take for me - their TNs are 7; you dont hit that as often as you want without cards from hand.

 

Monks themselves are tools for the job; do I need to get scheme markers down across the board?  Wandering River Monks.  Do I need a unit to remove enemy markers, say against an opponent declared Kirai, or Titania?  Lotus Eaters.  Is the scheme pool heavily into scheme-marker dropping on my half of the board?  An Archer is a fantastic tool against scheme markers at range.  If you want to min-max the benefit of upgrade conflux attachment sparking free Concentrate actions (and I do) my hiring pool generally favors Wandering River Monks and Fermented River Monks; given I seem to find myself in these two styles most often.

 

For out-of-keyword synergy I see Asami as a great +1 for any 10T, and if the vast array of versatile beaters dont suit your needs in hiring Misaki isn't a bad take.  My dual masters in hiring are specific and niche - a declared Zoraida opponent for example, to reduce the number of targets she can Obey.  If a scheme pool is VERY scheme marker heavy I feel Asami is a valuable +1 as she can hang back, removing enemy scheme markers to benefit, and send endless waves of Akaname out to achieve her scheme marker dropping.

 

 

His whole keyword is cool.  Every model has a place, and a reason to be considered for hiring.

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3 hours ago, Outplayed said:

Chi is one of the strongest mechanics in M3E.  The timing and use of it allows another level control over the duel process, in that you declare it's use for the whole duel after you see your flip, and it only adds to your eventual cheat (if necessary).

chi +2 bonus don't apply to cheated cards, only for the flipped card

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1 hour ago, Cursed25 said:

chi +2 bonus don't apply to cheated cards, only for the flipped card

Nope, check the wording.  It does not apply to a flip, it applies to ‘its duel total’.

 

The duel total is calculated after both players have cheated.  Page 10, step D of Core Rulebook.

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Side note, Misaki’s shadow markers will grant Shenlong (and co) concealment; and while Fermented River is equipped, a concealed enemy who is normally on a negative flip to hit with a ranged attack, is now at a positive flip.  

 

Misaki’s concealment benefits shenlong, archers (shadow pin trigger), and is essentially ignored by samurai, snipers, and fuhatsu given the built in plus flips on their ranged attacks.

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