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yool1981
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Any examples in particular?

I just looked at Colette and her M3 box appears to be the same cost as her M2e box with the same number of models in. [EDIT- I Can't count, you are right its exchanged 2 manniquins for 1 performer].  It looks like all are now $50, which was the price of all the wave 4 masters.

Sommer has gone up $5 and replaced 4 gremlins with 3 good old boys, as the only 1 I have seen that is fewer models in the crew box this edition.

So yes, in some cases the prices have gone up from the price it was 5 years ago.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Adran said:

I just looked at Colette and her M3 box appears to be the same cost as her M2e box with the same number of models in. It looks like all are now $50, which was the price of all the wave 4 masters.

I went into more details:

  • Colette's crew lost the equivalent of 1 mini am I wrong? So same price but less minis
  • Seamus went up 5USD for the exact same box
  • Perdita actually went down since Abuela is added but the increase is just 5 USD (Abuela's mini is imho worth more than 5USD)
  • Sonnia went up 5 USD for the exact same box
  • Justice went up 5 USD
  • Marcus did not change but the content is not the same. It actually went up because the former box included big minis.
8 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

For the emissary/rider price bracket you’re wrong, those went down in cost I noticed. If I am remembering correctly, the only boxes which increased were M2E wave 1 crew boxes went up to $50 to match later waves’ crew boxes.

I just checked the crewboxes, for the other boxes I haven't checked. Colette is not Wave 1, it is Wave 2.

 

19 minutes ago, Adran said:

So yes, in some cases the prices have gone up from the price it was 5 years ago.

For existing minis, how come since the moulds are fully amortized by now, the process automatized (so less inpact of the labour cost) and oil prices are unless I am wrong below those from 5 years ago (https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/crude-oil)?

For new minis, they all have simpler sculpts and larger features which should decrease the mould cost (although I guess they use a bit more material.

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Yup, you're right, that's all that goes into developing and running a company - we should probably just go ahead and price those at cost and put them out there. 😐

Not to mention warehouse/office, development, design, packaging, print, labor, shipping, hardware/computers - and the assumption all of which have somehow miraculously not increased over the years, much less the tariffs, trades - etc. 

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1 minute ago, yool1981 said:

I went into more details:

  • Colette's crew lost the equivalent of 1 mini am I wrong? So same price but less minis

 

  • Marcus did not change but the content is not the same. It actually went up because the former box included big minis.

I just checked the crewboxes, for the other boxes I haven't checked. Colette is not Wave 1, it is Wave 2.

 

For existing minis, how come since the moulds are fully amortized by now, the process automatized (so less inpact of the labour cost) and oil prices are unless I am wrong below those from 5 years ago (https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/crude-oil)?

For new minis, they all have simpler sculpts and larger features which should decrease the mould cost (although I guess they use a bit more material.

I forgot the old Colette had 2 performers and 2 manniquins. not 3 performers.  Yes, its fewer models. 

For the Marcus box  its not really easy to compare the cost based on size, as its not the size alone that is cost.

I don't know all the costs involved in making the product. But I think its increased at a slower rate than the rate of Inflation would have suggested.

I also think they have decided to make all crew boxes the same price to try and even out for the players, so it may well be that The Sonnia box is cheaper to make, because of reasons, but they are using some of the extra profit from that to balance out the costs of other boxes. I think there was some moaning about crew boxes being differently priced before.

 

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Also remember that 1) Its a business and does need to make money and 2) all previous sculpts from M1,M2, etc are fully game legal. You don't need to buy the new stuff if you don't want to./don't like how they look. All the old boxes are still available somewhere.  I also know of people who really want the new stuff and are willing to sell their old models.

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Yeah I have no worries about the change in model counts. That's like saying gremlins should never be played cause most their boxes have smaller models. Editions change and prices go up. Sadly it's the way of the world.  If a couple dollars or model removed lets wyrd recruit and keep art / design / etc talent. Go for it.  I'd rather a game that can stay competitive in the space than one that cuts off its future for near term benefits.

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So it sounds like a handful of crew boxes caught up to the normal price for them, and a couple lost minis. I'm fine with that, the company needs to make something, and $5 here or there isn't going to break me. On the other hand though, many things are now cheaper than they were. At first glance, more things got cost reductions than increases. Riders/A&D went down $5, the Emissaries now come with free Effigies at the same cost as before (so an $11) drop. Plus, more things are being bundled into keyword packs, which are almost always cheaper than buying the minis individually. So, not to worry, the sky is not falling

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2 hours ago, Nathan Caroland said:

Yup, you're right, that's all that goes into developing and running a company - we should probably just go ahead and price those at cost and put them out there. 😐

Not to mention warehouse/office, development, design, packaging, print, labor, shipping, hardware/computers - and the assumption all of which have somehow miraculously not increased over the years, much less the tariffs, trades - etc. 

For the full monkey's paw result of having each box cost represent what the model cost, instead of spreading the development cost of the edition evenly, remember to have the developers figure out how much time they spent on each model and/or crew (especially ones that went through multiple revisions) and add that to cost.  (Per project billable hours, go!  😱)

"Sorry, Faction X, your masters were more difficult to balance, so you're all going to be spending extra for your new models."  🤬

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So...  I had to make this comment on a Games Workshop forum somewhere else, but here's the deal:  the absolute worst thing you can do for any miniatures game is have boxes cost an amount based upon the amount of plastic in the box.  This is because not all Keywords are created evenly.  Some are designed to work around swarming with more models at a lower cost, while others have more elite models at a higher cost.  If you charge per the amount of plastic in the box, new players will gravitate towards the cheaper boxes, and you end up with runs on certain items while others just sit on warehouse shelves.  The best thing you can do is to make prices based upon value in the game.  Everybody spends the same amount of real world money on the same size of a crew.  Some people will pay more per model.  Some people will pay less per model.  Everybody spends the same amount to field a 50ss crew.  In return, more things get played by new players.  :)

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20 hours ago, Nathan Caroland said:

Yup, you're right, that's all that goes into developing and running a company - we should probably just go ahead and price those at cost and put them out there. 😐

Not to mention warehouse/office, development, design, packaging, print, labor, shipping, hardware/computers - and the assumption all of which have somehow miraculously not increased over the years, much less the tariffs, trades - etc. 

I am on a company board also so I have an idea of how a company is run :D 

I however can very hardly increase prices for old things without a good reason on the direct production costs (overheads are usually considered to have to be absorbed by more efficiency and economies of scale).

To increase prices easily I have to do better than before.

Additionally if I make simpler products (like the new M3E sculpts), I cannot expect to rise my prices easily either.

Different industries I guess. Looking at the reactions on this topics it does not bother your customers. I wish I had the same luxury :D

But anyhow I can understand why in terms of marketing the crew box prices should all be the same, even if some are old ones.

if some prices other than crewboxes have decreased then it is good indeed.

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1 hour ago, yool1981 said:

I am on a company board also so I have an idea of how a company is run :D 

I however can very hardly increase prices for old things without a good reason on the direct production costs (overheads are usually considered to have to be absorbed by more efficiency and economies of scale).

To increase prices easily I have to do better than before.

Additionally if I make simpler products (like the new M3E sculpts), I cannot expect to rise my prices easily either.

I have to assume that you don't work for a software company, game company, or company in a similar market.

Where, exactly, could you imagine "efficiency" and "economies of scale" exist in an industry that produces wargaming miniatures?  There's a reason why you see small game companies run Kickstarters that are essentially "Give us the money to make the plastic injection mold for this model and you can have the models for very small amounts of money."

Software (and video games) is the same way.  There's this huge initial production cost and then an nominal (and completely unrelated) per-unit reproduction cost.  And then continuing costs for product improvement and product support.  So how much do you charge for a copy of a game?  And what's really, really telling is when you watch someone who's gotten used to consumer software pricing get confronted with the pricing for small-market niche software that costs ten to a hundred times what they're used to paying. 

1 hour ago, yool1981 said:

Different industries I guess. Looking at the reactions on this topics it does not bother your customers. I wish I had the same luxury :D

Double dare you to try that side of the fence if you think it's greener.  😈  

 

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Now cards are more expensive to make as well. But the same principle could be applied for clothing, for example, all sizes cost the same even though the amount of fabric needed to make each one is different. But yes, I can't understand how survivors or changelings cost the same as wardens and those are quite more detailed (and 2 sprues vs 1...)

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2 hours ago, solkan said:

Where, exactly, could you imagine "efficiency" and "economies of scale" exist in an industry that produces wargaming miniatures?

By increasing your sales I would guess and improving your project management process to be able to actually be on schedule on your releases, thereby improving your working capital.

I know the market is saturated but Wyrd’s visibility in LGS is non existant around here. You have to really want their products to purchase them. The way I see them their marketing and business development ability is really poor.

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4 hours ago, yool1981 said:

By increasing your sales I would guess and improving your project management process to be able to actually be on schedule on your releases, thereby improving your working capital.

So you have no idea how the miniature production industry works.

Thanks for identifying your problem.  

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7 hours ago, solkan said:

So you have no idea how the miniature production industry works.

 Thanks for identifying your problem.  

It is obvious that on your side you have infinite science and wisdom.

I am very sorry I have offended your highness and will stop bothering you with my idiotic questions.

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On 5/17/2019 at 4:40 PM, Nathan Caroland said:

Yup, you're right, that's all that goes into developing and running a company - we should probably just go ahead and price those at cost and put them out there. 😐

Not to mention warehouse/office, development, design, packaging, print, labor, shipping, hardware/computers - and the assumption all of which have somehow miraculously not increased over the years, much less the tariffs, trades - etc. 

How very dare you try to make a living and successful business out of this game, dont you know we expect all our toys for free 😂😂😂😂

Guys, I dont think anyone has room to complain when the rules and cards are being released for free online. Remember Wyrd is a business and is there to make money as well as actually provide a wage for its employees. We are not in a cheap hobby and prices do have to rise sometimes

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2 hours ago, katadder said:

Guys, I dont think anyone has room to complain when the rules and cards are being released for free online. Remember Wyrd is a business and is there to make money as well as actually provide a wage for its employees. We are not in a cheap hobby and prices do have to rise sometimes

Yep the rule thing is cool. I have always purchased the books from Wyrd to sustain the development work and IP (I never used any copy or shared books with others).

The special order things is cool also and very thoughtful of Wyrd. I like the new bundle packaging.

I started the topic on crewboxes only and the price has indeed risen, even for existing boxes. However, some posters also noted that crewboxes excepted, some prices had decreased.

My original complaint was:

_ Stuff that have existed for a long time and for which the original production investment has been amortized (or at least I hope for Wyrd) have seen their price risen. I am more used to seeing rises in price going along with resculpts (and resculpts being far superior to the former minis - see below). I understand inflation and all but this still does not make sense to me (I am a Kaizen kind of guy).

_ Much more subjectively: New stuff that I find less appealing than before (or at least less innovative in terms of sculpts and probably easier to mould than many M2E stuff) being more (or as) expensive than the older bolder stuff was. The new minis are imho inferior to the former ones.

So overall, I have a feeling of a stagnation or a downgrade in Wyrd's minis along with a price increase for the newer sculpts and some older crewboxes.

Hence my discomfort.

But it seems that I am in the minority about this so everything is fine for Wyrd :D.

 

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20 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

Yep the rule thing is cool. I have always purchased the books from Wyrd to sustain the development work and IP (I never used any copy or shared books with others).

The special order things is cool also and very thoughtful of Wyrd. I like the new bundle packaging.

I started the topic on crewboxes only and the price has indeed risen, even for existing boxes. However, some posters also noted that crewboxes excepted, some prices had decreased.

My original complaint was:

_ Stuff that have existed for a long time and for which the original production investment has been amortized (or at least I hope for Wyrd) have seen their price risen. I am more used to seeing rises in price going along with resculpts (and resculpts being far superior to the former minis - see below). I understand inflation and all but this still does not make sense to me (I am a Kaizen kind of guy).

_ Much more subjectively: New stuff that I find less appealing than before (or at least less innovative in terms of sculpts and probably easier to mould than many M2E stuff) being more (or as) expensive than the older bolder stuff was. The new minis are imho inferior to the former ones.

So overall, I have a feeling of a stagnation or a downgrade in Wyrd's minis along with a price increase for the newer sculpts and some older crewboxes.

Hence my discomfort.

But it seems that I am in the minority about this so everything is fine for Wyrd :D.

 

Even existing products require materials and labour and as wages go up and materials go up then prices have to match.

I am with you on not liking new models  but again they require design work and moulds.

Plus let's not forget all the time put into  new rules etc require staff who do require to eat/pay bills etc

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