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Kharnage

Can Chiaki Split Her Own Soul?

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Chiaki's Magic Flute or whatever has the Split Soul trigger to hand a model within range, a reliquary upgrade of another model within range. It's a pulse. Does she count as being within the 4 inch pulse, despite being the center of it, or is Chiaki herself not actually able to split her own soul because she's "within range but not part of the area of effect" because the center of pulses aren't affected by the pulse?

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She is not in range of the pulse, so she won't get the push, and likewise she isn't in range to either gain a reliquary upgrade, or for others to get her upgrade.

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4 hours ago, Adran said:

She is not in range of the pulse, so she won't get the push, and likewise she isn't in range to either gain a reliquary upgrade, or for others to get her upgrade.

"All models inside the Pulse’s area or overlapping the object generating the Pulse, excluding the object that created the Pulse, are affected by the Pulse as long as they are in the generating object’s Line of Sight."
She isn't affected by the pulse, but that's not to say she's not in range. I would argue that she's in range, she just gets a pass on being affected by the pulse, and thus could split her own soul. Even in the definition of pulse, it acknowledges that the object is in range of itself, but that it is unaffected. Being affected by the movement effect, and having your soul split, I argue are mutually exclusive. One is a pulse, sure, but the other simply selects models within the range for a different effect entirely.

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5 hours ago, Kharnage said:

"All models inside the Pulse’s area or overlapping the object generating the Pulse, excluding the object that created the Pulse, are affected by the Pulse as long as they are in the generating object’s Line of Sight."
She isn't affected by the pulse, but that's not to say she's not in range. I would argue that she's in range, she just gets a pass on being affected by the pulse, and thus could split her own soul. Even in the definition of pulse, it acknowledges that the object is in range of itself, but that it is unaffected. Being affected by the movement effect, and having your soul split, I argue are mutually exclusive. One is a pulse, sure, but the other simply selects models within the range for a different effect entirely.

What do you think the purpose of putting the pulse symbol on the range number is, then?

After all, the effect of that action is “Friendly Retainer models within range may move up to 3”.”  And Chiaki is a retainer.

So you appear to be claiming that she’ll be affected by the action, and that it’s completely irrelevant that the range of the action has the pulse symbol on it.

 

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3 hours ago, solkan said:

So you appear to be claiming that she’ll be affected by the action, and that it’s completely irrelevant that the range of the action has the pulse symbol on it.

I'm not claiming she'll be affected by the pulse, merely that she is within range. In the same way that a trigger on the Flute action could say "enemies within range suffer a point of damage", doesn't predicate that they were affected by the pulse, merely that they were in range.
Consider inversely, Brutal Emissary's aura, Cage For All.
"A Cage for All a3" 6 - 10 Until the End Phase, enemy models that Activate within range must each pass a TN 13 Mv duel or gain Slow. R Bolster Strength: Friendly models within range Heal 1."
We understand that it has a range, and is an aura, and is therefor up for a duration; until the End Phase. The Trigger however, is separate in its resolution from the action. Friendly models that wander into range later don't get healed, because the trigger is resolved differently than the action itself. I would argue the same at the very least could be true of Chiaki's action.

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21 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I'm not claiming she'll be affected by the pulse, merely that she is within range.

Please see the definition in Actions where the symbols are mentioned:

Quote

Range comes next, which may have an icon denoting its type (:melee is Melee, :ranged is Projectile, :new-Pulse: is Pulse, :aura is Aura) and the range in inches, which is the maximum distance the Action can affect.

The Range of the Action is specified as :new-Pulse:4".  That applies the Pulse rules to range.

Chiaki IS NOT in range of herself for that Action or its triggers.

Likewise, in order for a model to be "in range" of an effect that has a range specified as :auraor :new-Pulse:, both line of sight and distance are required.

If those requirements are not present, the effect would not include those symbols in the range.

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4 minutes ago, solkan said:

Please see the definition in Actions where the symbols are mentioned:

I uh, I did, and I quoted part of it, but I'll do it again.
Page 31, Core Rulebook. Under pulses.
"The Pulse icon (p) means the Action or Ability affects an area around the object that has created the Pulse. A Pulse always extends out in all directions from an object a number of inches equal to the Pulse’s effect, as measured from the edge of the object's base. Pulses are immediate ‘burst’ effects that have no game effect after they are resolved. All models inside the Pulse’s area or overlapping the object generating the Pulse, excluding the object that created the Pulse, are affected by the Pulse as long as they are in the generating object’s Line of Sight."
The underlined sentence, to me, acknowledges that while the generator of the pulse isn't affected by the pulse itself, it is in range. That to me says "Yes, the object generating the pulse is in range, but don't affect it with the pulse."
And just like how the Bolster Strength trigger doesn't act like the aura Cage For All action it's on, Split the Soul doesn't act like the pulse Spirit Flute action it's on, it merely adopts its 4 inch range. 

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If you want a comparison, see Kick Up Dust.

Quote

Drop a 50mm Concealing, Severe Dust Cloud Marker anywhere within range. During the End Phase, remove the Dust Cloud.

The action is specified as Range 3".  What does that mean?  You don't need line of sight to where you place the marker.

Yasunori's Wind Wrath:

Quote

Move this model and other models in range 1" in any direction.

with a range of :new-Pulse:3".  Why does that action specify "this model and other models in range"?  Because "this model" isn't in range of the action.

 

Likewise, compare abilities like Ride the Rails (which specify distances without symbols) to abilities like Power Converter (on the Peacekeeper) which specify "It may remove a Scrap Marker within :aura3 to gain a Power Token."

The Pulse and Aura symbols are being used as short hand, and the limitations of the effects matter.

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No, within range refers to within pulse range. This is why the Mech Rider's ult was changed, because it only used to apply to models within the pulse. Similarly, the other two triggers are still limited by the pulse, so the Mech Rider cannot use Innovation to give herself Tomes because she's not within range of the pulse

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5 hours ago, Kharnage said:

I uh, I did, and I quoted part of it, but I'll do it again.
Page 31, Core Rulebook. Under pulses.
"The Pulse icon (p) means the Action or Ability affects an area around the object that has created the Pulse. A Pulse always extends out in all directions from an object a number of inches equal to the Pulse’s effect, as measured from the edge of the object's base. Pulses are immediate ‘burst’ effects that have no game effect after they are resolved. All models inside the Pulse’s area or overlapping the object generating the Pulse, excluding the object that created the Pulse, are affected by the Pulse as long as they are in the generating object’s Line of Sight."
The underlined sentence, to me, acknowledges that while the generator of the pulse isn't affected by the pulse itself, it is in range. That to me says "Yes, the object generating the pulse is in range, but don't affect it with the pulse."
And just like how the Bolster Strength trigger doesn't act like the aura Cage For All action it's on, Split the Soul doesn't act like the pulse Spirit Flute action it's on, it merely adopts its 4 inch range. 

To me that underlined sentence tells me that the model isn't in range.

The range determines which models are affected, and the range of a pulse is everything within x" that can see the object but excludes the object itself. 

I can see what you're saying, as a possible reading" this model is in range, but we don't do the affects on it", but it can be read more easily as "this model isn't in range". At least to me. Its more straight forward, leads to clearer rules and I would also say is more intutative.

 

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