Edmonton "volley, fire on my mark" - can it grant melee actions?

[pawlik]

Charles Edmonton has an action "volley fire on my mark". it allows one fireteam in the target squad to take a projectile action. Kings empire allegiance "bayonets" ability allows fireteams to use projectile actions in melee as if they were melee actions, but with a -2 penalty.

Based on this, can Edmonton e.g. target engaged royal rifle corps unit, so that they make additional melee attack on unit they are engaged with? or can they only shoot, for which they would need to be unengaged?

[retnab]

FAQ 23: If an effect would allow a King’s Empire Fireteam to take a  Action, can the Fireteam take the Action as a instead, using the Bayonets Ability?

• a. No.

[Tris]

6 minutes ago, katadder said:

I would debate that as you are confusing the matter.

All kings empire can use  actions in combat but then they use them as  actions with -2 penalty. The royal rifle corps just use them without penalty but I would still say if used in melee in counts as a so still cannot use volley fire on my mark 

From the RRCs Glory side:

Point blank:

Fireteams in this unit may take  actions against targets they are engaged with without penalty.

 

 

It's not the ability from the allegiance card, it doesn't change the attack type, it's still a projectile attack, and they get no penalty for using it.

[Adran]

28 minutes ago, katadder said:

Yes but I assume that is to get rid of the -2 as all kings empire can use  attacks in melee with a -2 as if they were .

Which is why I think there is some debate over it. It doesn't say that the attack remains 

Also as you cant use whilst engaged I believe it still has to make use of the allegiance ability to convert it to but without the negative 

I think you're wrong. the allegance abiltiy allows you to replace the  with a .

The Royal Rifle core in glory does something different. It doesn't change the type of the attack, what it does is give you permission to ignore the rule that says you can't use  while engaged. So it can still do it as volley fire.

[Tris]

12 hours ago, pawlik said:

Charles Edmonton has an action "volley fire on my mark". it allows one fireteam in the target squad to take a projectile action. Kings empire allegiance "bayonets" ability allows fireteams to use projectile actions in melee as if they were melee actions, but with a -2 penalty.

Based on this, can Edmonton e.g. target engaged royal rifle corps unit, so that they make additional melee attack on unit they are engaged with? or can they only shoot, for which they would need to be unengaged?

You can always use it on a gloried RRC though as they have an ability that allows them to shoot while in combat, without the -2 

[katadder]

38 minutes ago, Tris said:

You can always use it on a gloried RRC though as they have an ability that allows them to shoot while in combat, without the -2 

I would debate that as you are confusing the matter.

All kings empire can use  actions in combat but then they use them as  actions with -2 penalty. The royal rifle corps just use them without penalty but I would still say if used in melee in counts as a so still cannot use volley fire on my mark 

[katadder]

10 minutes ago, Tris said:

From the RRCs Glory side:

Point blank:

Fireteams in this unit may take  actions against targets they are engaged with without penalty.

 

 

It's not the ability from the allegiance card, it doesn't change the attack type, it's still a projectile attack, and they get no penalty for using it.

Yes but I assume that is to get rid of the -2 as all kings empire can use  attacks in melee with a -2 as if they were .

Which is why I think there is some debate over it. It doesn't say that the attack remains 

Also as you cant use whilst engaged I believe it still has to make use of the allegiance ability to convert it to but without the negative 

[Tris]

11 minutes ago, katadder said:

Yes but I assume that is to get rid of the -2 as all kings empire can use  attacks in melee with a -2 as if they were .

Which is why I think there is some debate over it. It doesn't say that the attack remains 

Also as you cant use whilst engaged I believe it still has to make use of the allegiance ability to convert it to but without the negative 

But the ability itself overrides the core rules as it clearly says you can use a  while engaged, I assume that the "without penalty" part is just here to clarify that part as they obviously have a very similar abilty on their Allegiance card.

[katadder]

1 minute ago, Tris said:

But the ability itself overrides the core rules as it clearly says you can use a  while engaged, I assume that the "without penalty" part is just here to clarify that part as they obviously have a very similar abilty on their Allegiance card.

And that's the issue, an assumption. You assume that, I assume that it makes use of the allegiance ability but without the penalty. 

[Tris]

4 minutes ago, katadder said:

And that's the issue, an assumption. You assume that, I assume that it makes use of the allegiance ability but without the penalty. 

But it nowhere does it say it may use the allegiance ability without the penalty

[retnab]

Way I read it, the penalty is removed but not the basic rules of engagement (such as no shooting while engaged), so they'd still be using Bayonets, which means no Volley Fire.

[katadder]

6 minutes ago, Tris said:

But it nowhere does it say it may use the allegiance ability without the penalty

Depends on intentions i guess as obviously all kings empire can use whilst engaged but with a penalty and the problem is wyrd dont always like to add extra sentences if they think we can figure the intention

I can see where you are coming from and so I think this does need clarification as it could be looked at both ways but for me (and I think majority of others) this would still be a no

[katadder]

32 minutes ago, Adran said:

I think you're wrong. the allegance abiltiy allows you to replace the  with a .

The Royal Rifle core in glory does something different. It doesn't change the type of the attack, what it does is give you permission to ignore the rule that says you can't use  while engaged. So it can still do it as volley fire.

which is why I think this needs clarifying in an FAQ as I can see people coming down on both sides of this argument