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Kharnage

Gravity So Strong I Can't Grow

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So uh... gravity well prevents place effects unless generated by friendly models. This means RAW that no replace effects happen. So uh, nephilim can't grow, pigs can't grow, Ferdinand Vogel can't be a werewolf, Coryphee are duct-taped together (or apart!), Sandeep gamin can't go all power rangers combine into a golem... I feel like this isn't working quite as intended. Shouldn't we reword this to not include replace effects?

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2 minutes ago, retnab said:

It also blocks all unbury and summons, which is pretty decent.

Yeah, which we saw coming. But gravity countering werewolf is dumb, IMO. 

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6 hours ago, Gesuma said:

Why?

Because a Gravity Well is historically in Sci Fi about teleport/warp drive prevention. In so many space battle games Gravity Well Generators are designed to prevent enemy warships from escaping using Faster-Than- Light drives. An example here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Gravity_well_projector

So something like this preventing "on your heels" triggers or unburying/summoning makes a bit more sense because it's preventing a tear in reality, or a warping of the normal laws of physics. 

I also buy it as making it harder to fly, maybe, but it shouldn't prevent transformation or growth, because you happen to have to "place" in base contact with yourself.  

That's why I think it's dumb. 

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I wonder if the intent was to stop replace and summon effects.  It’s seems like it’s supposed to stop folks from moving models around the board with place effects. Obviously it currently does all the above. 

Its darn near a hard counter for Dreamer since his summons must be placed in BtB with an opponents model. Other summoners have a more freedom to place summons outside a gravity well. But if a Friekorp player keeps his models close to Arik then Dreamer can’t really put summons into play. 

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11 minutes ago, Yajnho said:

I wonder if the intent was to stop replace and summon effects.  It’s seems like it’s supposed to stop folks from moving models around the board with place effects. Obviously it currently does all the above. 

Its darn near a hard counter for Dreamer since his summons must be placed in BtB with an opponents model. Other summoners have a more freedom to place summons outside a gravity well. But if a Friekorp player keeps his models close to Arik then Dreamer can’t really put summons into play. 

That is an unbury, not a pure place effect—shouldn’t unburied Dreamer and Tara models within a gravity well instead pop in the deployment zone as the bury rules specify? (That won’t help nephilim though. There seems to be no allowance for forbidden replace effects.)

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4 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Because a Gravity Well is historically in Sci Fi about teleport/warp drive prevention. In so many space battle games Gravity Well Generators are designed to prevent enemy warships from escaping using Faster-Than- Light drives. An example here: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Gravity_well_projector

So something like this preventing "on your heels" triggers or unburying/summoning makes a bit more sense because it's preventing a tear in reality, or a warping of the normal laws of physics. 

I also buy it as making it harder to fly, maybe, but it shouldn't prevent transformation or growth, because you happen to have to "place" in base contact with yourself.  

That's why I think it's dumb. 

Transformations and near instant growth and that is not a tear in reality?
How is that like normal laws of physics and not warping of such?

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36 minutes ago, Gesuma said:

Transformations and near instant growth and that is not a tear in reality?
How is that like normal laws of physics and not warping of such?

Well, casting ancient words and "twist reality" attacks still work, so my argument, and your rebuttal, break down there, but the core idea is that it's supposed to prevent movement. Growth and transformation is not supposed to be movement. It's *technically* movement because that's the way we wrote it, and that technicality is my problem.
It's fine, cunning players will just block off the aura with a big model in the generator's face and grow/transform in the shadows, which is also not how gravity works.... but also there are no freikorps/academic players in my area, so it's no sweat off my back. 

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6 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Well, casting ancient words and "twist reality" attacks still work, so my argument, and your rebuttal, break down there, but the core idea is that it's supposed to prevent movement. Growth and transformation is not supposed to be movement. It's *technically* movement because that's the way we wrote it, and that technicality is my problem.
It's fine, cunning players will just block off the aura with a big model in the generator's face and grow/transform in the shadows, which is also not how gravity works.... but also there are no freikorps/academic players in my area, so it's no sweat off my back. 

I see it as a Magical Gravity Well - as in it sucks out the magical energies near it. Preventing magical transformations, summons and models appearing out of nowhere (unbury).

think of it like a black hole, but not for light for certain magical properties :)

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22 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Well, casting ancient words and "twist reality" attacks still work, so my argument, and your rebuttal, break down there, but the core idea is that it's supposed to prevent movement. Growth and transformation is not supposed to be movement. It's *technically* movement because that's the way we wrote it, and that technicality is my problem.
It's fine, cunning players will just block off the aura with a big model in the generator's face and grow/transform in the shadows, which is also not how gravity works.... but also there are no freikorps/academic players in my area, so it's no sweat off my back. 

Now try looking at it from the opposite direction.  In M2E, the aura only prevented enemy place effects, and had specific exceptions to allow unbury and summon effects to position models in the aura.

Try explaining to someone what good a Place-effect prevention effect is that can be bypassed by summoning and unbury effects (and Replace effects).  Especially when there are models like Misaki that use Unbury as a two-step Place mechanic.

If you've got separate arguments for each, or only have arguments concerning some of them, that's fine.  But keep in mind:

  • Unbury actually uses Place with a capital P in its rules description.
  • The Replace rules include text describing/creating the situation where Replace fails if the replacement(s) cannot be little-p placed as specified.

 

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Apparently Gravity Well makes the Mounted Guardsman disappear into obliviom after his horse dies too :(

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1 hour ago, Carecalmo said:

Don't worry, the Gravity Well is an aura, so he can just place behind his horse.

You're right!

However it still feels a weird interaction.

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On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 7:30 PM, Kharnage said:

Yeah, which we saw coming. But gravity countering werewolf is dumb, IMO. 

Gravity on earth is strongly affected by the moon.

Werewolves are strongly affected by the moon.

I propose Werewolves are strongly affected by Gravity.

 

Gravity stops you getting further from the earth.

Growing bigger makes (part of) you get further from the earth.

I can see reasons why in a strange gravity environment you can't instantly grow bigger.

 

And if you can't see why altering with gravity can't stop things from dancing together or apart, then I have no hope here.

 

(If you have a good rules reason that's good, but I read this as a case of "it feels like gravity shouldn't do these things, so lets get rid of it". I have no idea of the intent, but I'm not convinced by the fluff arguments.)

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1 minute ago, Adran said:

If you have a good rules reason that's good, but I read this as a case of "it feels like gravity shouldn't do these things, so lets get rid of it". I have no idea of the intent, but I'm not convinced by the fluff arguments.

Gravity Well RAI I figured was for anti movement, especially since the similar ability from M2E in Anna Lovelace specifically made such exceptions. If we don't care, then we don't care. Just tryna get people to think about stuff out here. 

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Perhaps this is another case of streamlining to remove exceptions.  I like that you bring it up because as it stands, it is something nephallim and summoners need to be aware of. I haven't heard others bemoaning it as breaking their games yet though so I think its going to remain unless there is a big outcry or as I think you first supposed, it was a accident for it to work on replacement effects.  Jury is still out.

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