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Da Git

Friendly Fire - really weak

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So I had a game with Kaeris vs Hoffman and we both thought that Friendly fire being only a :-flipto the attack duel was very little deterrent from shooting into combat. I have no problem with things like Sniper rifles with Advanced Sights or Expert Marksman being a thing, but there are just so many ways to get :+flip to duels that it really becomes pointless (at least compared to the old randomisation).  There was never a time in our game that the enemy was on a :-flip between Power tokens and Blaze of Glory.

I'd like to see that Friendly Fire became ONE of the following:

  1. a straight :-flip:-flip to the duel (this means that you'd need 2 sources of :+flip to get to the straight flip)
  2. :-flip for each enemy model the target is engaging/engaged by
  3. or (preferably) that models cannot benefit by :+flip flips when affected by Friendly fire (so they always suffer a :-flip to the duel).
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It should at least be a :-flipto the damage flip. 

I like double :-flip:-fliptoo

I don't like option 3 because it's basically "you can't shoot into engagement" in practice.

 

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I disagree. Malifaux sort of needs to determine how they want to treat ranged attacks, and stick to it. For the majority of the game having a ranged icon made the attack subpar, while at the same tine models which had it paid a premium to have that because “range”.  I also don’t think it’s an issue because if you look at competitive models from last edition many of the used ones had  ranged attacks with no icon, or didn’t randomize. So it isn’t as if this is a new phenomenon. 

Yes, gunlines and snipers are not fun to play against, and yet the new edition is so mobile, especially offensively that if we did what you suggest ranged weapons would again be effectively worth less than comparable melee attacks, and if that’s the case why even have them? 

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Besides, that might be a theme bonus distorting the result. If an Augmented wants to attack on a straight flip, it will find enough positive modifiers to make that happen.

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54 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I disagree. Malifaux sort of needs to determine how they want to treat ranged attacks, and stick to it. For the majority of the game having a ranged icon made the attack subpar, while at the same tine models which had it paid a premium to have that because “range”.  I also don’t think it’s an issue because if you look at competitive models from last edition many of the used ones had  ranged attacks with no icon, or didn’t randomize. So it isn’t as if this is a new phenomenon. 

Yes, gunlines and snipers are not fun to play against, and yet the new edition is so mobile, especially offensively that if we did what you suggest ranged weapons would again be effectively worth less than comparable melee attacks, and if that’s the case why even have them? 

The biggest issue of ranged icons in M2E was the :-flipfrom cover and not friendly fire. If cover worked as it does now, I'm pretty sure you'd see a LOT of projectile shooting.

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You misunderstand, we’ve already effectively seen what that looks like in M2E. In M2E the competitive models with ranged attacks that were taken had ranged attacks that ignored cover, didn’t randomize, or just flat didn’t have the icon, and in general those were the only ranged models that were taken. The difference now is only that more models can do it so a larger variety of models will be seen not that they will be more common.

I mean we all saw the collodi/shen gublube lists right? 

I mean I’m not saying the ranged icon game is perfect, or that no changes should be made, but actively making guns bad or unable to fine into combat once again is not something I want to go back to personally. 

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1 hour ago, Da Git said:

I'd like to see that Friendly Fire became ONE of the following:

Where are your battle reports to go along with each of the proposed changes?  😐

Because we all need to be realistic about the fact that this is the last minute changes period.  For instance:

The developers are at GAMA now, then at the end of the month is Adepticon, and the publication deadlines are coming up.

 

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8 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

You misunderstand, we’ve already effectively seen what that looks like in M2E. In M2E the competitive models with ranged attacks that were taken had ranged attacks that ignored cover, didn’t randomize, or just flat didn’t have the icon, and in general those were the only ranged models that were taken. The difference now is only that more models can do it so a larger variety of models will be seen not that they will be more common.

I mean we all saw the collodi/shen gublube lists right? 

I mean I’m not saying the ranged icon game is perfect, or that no changes should be made, but actively making guns bad or unable to fine into combat once again is not something I want to go back to personally. 

We saw attacks that ignored cover/had :+flip/no gun icon because cover was everywhere and shooting on :-flipwas garbage. Now you have:

  1. Focus moving between turns
  2. Models giving out focus
  3. Cover is way more shit compared to M2E

I can tell you that there will be a LOT more shooting models. 

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12 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

The focus is more of an issue for me, and I’ve argued for awhile it shouldn’t last across turns.

It shouldn't but the it would require a lot of rebalancing of models.

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19 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Same thing if friendly fire was changed though. That would require a massive rebalancing of models. And let's be realistic, neither is going to happen before release.

May we never experience another "massive rebalancing of models"!

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25 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Same thing if friendly fire was changed though. That would require a massive rebalancing of models. And let's be realistic, neither is going to happen before release.

I don't really think FF changes are as dramatic as focus.

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Maybe not on a total scale level since not every model has an icon attack and everyone can focus, but it would still be a massive change, and would require rebalancing every single model with an icon attack.

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1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Maybe not on a total scale level since not every model has an icon attack and everyone can focus, but it would still be a massive change, and would require rebalancing every single model with an icon attack.

It really wouldn't IMHO. Right now we could just drop it and it woulnd't change a thing most of the time.  What counters shooting in M2E is stealth, and not engagement.

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I would disagree with that. Engagement countered shooting a ton in my experience, and cover less so. And given how much faster engagement is now guns would be next to useless on anything but a sniper if you couldn’t actually fire into combat with any regularity. 

But regardless it won’t happen because that is not a minor change, even if you accepted that not every single icon weapon would need to change enough of them would that this is not a final last update sorta change.

BtW it feels much better now that we are disagreeing again. It felt,... unnatural agreeing with you all the time. ;)

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While friendly fire in itself might not sound enough of a penalty, it stacks with concealment, distracted, manipulative, and serene countenance. Those are all common sources. The big snipers ignore two of them, but that doesn't have much to do with how friendly fire works. 

 

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I just don't want to see the pendulum swing the other way with shooting becoming too powerful. Pretty much every game I've played, the combat crew has lost to the crew that has some (not all) ranged capabilities.

9 hours ago, solkan said:

Where are your battle reports to go along with each of the proposed changes?  😐

 

Just because they're not posted, doesn't mean they don't happen... I also can't do a turn by turn report or I'd only play 2 turns!

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I think if focus used defensively would also affect the damage flip, it could be enough against shooting crews

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