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Self loathing and obey

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I've been thinking  about it for a couple of days now and I still can't come up with a wording that will allow self loathing to retain it's flexibility while removing the potential abuse factor. The problem with suggestion 2 is that, apart from being hard to read (I understand, it's a horrible thing to try and give a short and precise wording) it would still allow you to put tormented upgrades on themselves, make a model challenge itself and so on.

I really can't see any good solutions other than a complete rework of the ability. If it get's too strong or too weak it can be tweaked in the errata.

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3 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

I've been thinking  about it for a couple of days now and I still can't come up with a wording that will allow self loathing to retain it's flexibility while removing the potential abuse factor. The problem with suggestion 2 is that, apart from being hard to read (I understand, it's a horrible thing to try and give a short and precise wording) it would still allow you to put tormented upgrades on themselves, make a model challenge itself and so on.

I really can't see any good solutions other than a complete rework of the ability. If it get's too strong or too weak it can be tweaked in the errata.

Enemy only <troll face>
 

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14 minutes ago, trikk said:

Enemy only <troll face>
 

disagree, that would solve Zoraida abuse, and that's about it... loads of other problems/issues with selfloathing's interaction with the rest of the game. Or I might misunderstand your point, as it is rather short...

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17 minutes ago, Caspergad said:

disagree, that would solve Zoraida abuse, and that's about it... loads of other problems/issues with selfloathing's interaction with the rest of the game. Or I might misunderstand your point, as it is rather short...

What issues would it create if Self Loathing was "enemy only"?

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6 minutes ago, trikk said:

What issues would it create if Self Loathing was "enemy only"?

eh, you might wanna check the other threads then, I am not gonna repeat it all, but among others how it ignores italics and other restrictions or just common sense (challenging yourself, or robbing jack daw or several curses, as they are placed on himself/his crew), nuking Aionus for 10 dam with two attacks, stick up three times on Parker... so on and so forth, the list goes on about wonky interactions as long as you copy the effect, and most of them are not fixed by enemy only, unless I misunderstand your suggested limitation. I would solve Zoraida abuse, yes, but it's not anywhere near enough.

 

for all the: OH, but I love my Pandora and so on... yes, Pandora is cool, no one says she can't have a decent/good attack, but there is no space for an ability this skewed or broken... (and again, not futureproof... ) I simply can't see why Pandora should get to bypass any and every other restriction in italics, just because... there is a reason for those abilities to have those restrictions, and whole models are often balanced around them.

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3 minutes ago, Caspergad said:

eh, you might wanna check the other threads then, I am not gonna repeat it all, but among others how it ignores italics and other restrictions or just common sense (challenging yourself, or robbing jack daw or several curses, as they are placed on himself/his crew), nuking Aionus for 10 dam with two attacks, stick up three times on Parker... so on and so forth, the list goes on about wonky interactions as long as you copy the effect, and most of them are not fixed by enemy only, unless I misunderstand your suggested limitation. I would solve Zoraida abuse, yes, but it's not anywhere near enough.

I think we agree in general.

 

The issue with Zoraida could be fixed with enemy only. It wouldn't create more issues but it wouldn't solve any other., correct?

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1 minute ago, trikk said:

I think we agree in general.

 

The issue with Zoraida could be fixed with enemy only. It wouldn't create more issues but it wouldn't solve any other., correct?

oh sure. was hard for me to decipher from your earlier post, but like that, yes, Zoraida abuse would be fixed with that restriction, nothing else... 

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1 minute ago, trikk said:

I think we agree in general.

 

The issue with Zoraida could be fixed with enemy only. It wouldn't create more issues but it wouldn't solve any other., correct?

I was reading this thread for a while and don’t see any problems?Why you think all potential cool interactions should be fixed. Pandora was always very tricky master with a lot of possibilities, and they just fixed her. And now you think that she must be nerfed and become unplayable again?)

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13 minutes ago, Daniel Walker said:

I was reading this thread for a while and don’t see any problems?Why you think all potential cool interactions should be fixed. Pandora was always very tricky master with a lot of possibilities, and they just fixed her. And now you think that she must be nerfed and become unplayable again?)

Because gimmicks and tricks are all fun and games but they limit design space and cause unexpected interactions. That's why there is a "cannot attach upgrades or name models" restrictions. This action should also have a failsafe.

If don't want any master to be unplayable, but being playable just on unexpected exploits is not good for the game and new players.

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As a big Pandora fan (and Zoraida for that matter) I don't think the current wording is neither currently good for the game nor futureproof. As it is I don't even think that limitations on triggers, enemy only or the no attaching of upgrades or naming of models is sufficient to weed out potential exploits or rules conundrums. My vote is for a redesign or just to go back to using only the damage track of the targeted model with her own suits activating triggers on the Self Loathing attack itself for Stunned and potentially a couple of other options.

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@Daniel Walker I most definitely don't want all the cool interactions removed from the game, nor do I want Pandora to be weak. Looking at self loathing I see so many potential abuses, plus it means every single attack action that gets added to the he from this point on will need to take self loathing into account. I've been trying and I can't find any way to write this ability so it can't be abused that won't fill the whole card. Personally I would much prefer if the attack gets changed now instead of resulting in a lot of NPE that gets us a horrible fix in the next errata.

Look at what happened to colette when prompt was changed in m2e. Or Levi when his channel was changed. 

 

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1 minute ago, Angelshard said:

 

Look at what happened to colette when prompt was changed in m2e. Or Levi when his channel was changed. 

I agree about Colette but post nerf Levi was still ok to play.

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