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Kharnage

Underrepresented and In Need of Attention?

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So the Neverborn threads have seen some Nephilim talk, some Zoraida talk, some Fae talk.... and it's more a pile of rotted meat now than a dead horse for Pandora, but other than the Frozen Trophy thread, we haven't seen a whole lot of action for the other Neverborn themes/masters lately. Is there anyone that needs looking at that hasn't gotten attention yet, or do we feel like for the most part we're all in a good spot? 
For reference, from top to bottom:
Marcus
Titania
Nekima 
Dreamer
Euripides
Zoraida
Pandora
Lucius

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Marcus: no clue. I've followed the discussions in arcanists and I can't see anything in neverborn that would make him a lot better. Maybe some interactions with doppel or changeling? 

Titania: She's ready to go.

Nekima: remove grow or fix it. That's what's missing. 

Dreamer: after the changes to stitched he's good to go.

Euripides: I think he's fine. As I see it the thread was about a specific list and not him in general.

Zoraida: adjust her cost and her crew works. I would like to see more interaction and synergy in her keyword, but I doubt it'll happen. 

Pandora: change self loathing and I'm happy. 

Lucius: Good to go. 

Other models: effigy is horrible and needs to change. I see no reason to take it. 

Half bloods are a bit too niche. 

Ancient pact. I think this upgrade is a tad too weak. Not sure how to balance it. 

All in all I think neverborn is just about ready to go. 

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I am more casual/fun player even at tournaments.

My 3 cents for selected options (own or intersted in):

Masters:

Marcus - didn't have opportunity to test, but i'm thinking about Rougarou with or even without (because of Feathered Wings) Inhuman Reflex might be interesting option for the beater. Eventually Will o'Wisp with stealth mutation - possibility of lots of conditions and there is a chance to evolve into Adze - with armor or stealth it might be nice scheme runner. Fix his mutation to be equal interesting choices.

Titania - wish that the rest of crew had more fun and interaction with underbrush even if i know that would get more complicated rules/triggers etc.

Nekima - Observing the changes and i'm totally not interested in this crew, most aspects just repel me from them.

Dreamer - no opinion and that something that would sell his crew to me.

Euripides - wish that Euripides have Frozen Vigor.

Zoraida - totally agree with more interaction and synergy in keyword. Also even with wonderful Eyes in the Night i miss a little Raven Form. Otherwise probably one of the best Master changes comparing to Zoraida from 2nd ed.

Pandora - no opinion what to improve, but looking fun.

Lucius - agree, he is ready to go.

 

Other models:

Effigy is horrible, even with option to grow into Emissary so i can hire it with Will o'Wisp for the same price.

Razorspine is weird - it want to be close to the enemy so he can't escape, but it is more effective just to kill Razorspine rather than escape from it.

Miss incorporeal for Will o'Wisp and Adze (i know, they have flight which in some case are great, lost incorporeal probably because of Voodoo Doll).

Half bloods as above - almost no interest to hire them.

Voodoo Doll - with Will o'Wisp it is wonderful, but even with them it still leaves weird taste when i'm looking at it's stat card.

 

That's probably all from me.

 

PS. Grootslang - please give him alternative model.

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Masters:

Marcus - Gearing up to playtest this guy, on paper at least I believe he is FAR SUPERIOR in Neverborn than Arcanists.

Titania - No complaints.

Nekima - No interest, doesn't seem to have overmuch synergy, maybe she is just the "starting the game" master?

Dreamer - No complaints. Wonderful job on last change to Stitched.

Euripides - Wish that Euripides had Frozen Vigor (in place of Future Sight?). As is, he pays for The Old Ways out of hide, while the rest of his crew have a way to mitigate it.

Zoraida - No experience.

Pandora - No idea. I actually thought she was fine coming out of Closed Beta, and watching Open Beta has given me whiplash.

Lucius - If you have not played this guy, do so. His ability to scheme is wholly unique from any other Neverborn master, you will not be disappointed.

Others:

Razorspine - Too many other models compete with its role and are better. I had once offered up a ranged spray acid attack to differentiate it from some melee beasts?

Ancient Pact and Eldritch Magic - They need to be in the discussion at the minimum.

Geryon - Shoulder Rush is ridiculously too complicated. 

  • Push the model up to 6.
  • If it encouters an Ice Pillar, measure the distance that it pushed to that point, then push the ice pillar that measured distance.
  • If it or the Ice Pillar touch another model, then they take a Mv duel equal to the duel total to trigger the action.

Destructible Terrain - Nothing in the faction save the Poltergeist (which is a totem) has an ability to counter destructible terrain.

Unburied - Nothing in the faction has the ability to unbury a buried model. (In the sense of avoiding a Pine Box)

---------------------

So out of 64 models in the pdf...I am complaining about 1.5?

Good job to Wyrd!

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I like Nekima and the Nephilim. The guy I play with is taking a break from wargaming so my only source of playtesting is with my wife, but I might have to get her to play a game with me this week so I can test the new Grow. I think I like the change - a common complaint from me throughout the beta has been that Grow only happens at the end of activation, leaving the new more-powerful model somewhat vulnerable. Now it can potentially happen in the middle of the activation, giving the option to get the new model somewhere safe, heal some damage, etc.

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I would say that if the intention of "Quick Feast" is to eat the corpse marker the killed model just dropped (I wasn't sure when I read it if that works out timing-wise), then it really should be called "Eaten Alive" or something.

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I'm just echoing my thoughts on the thread addressing the new growth mechanics, but it stopped me from eating like 4 different previously-edible keywords. Amalgam, Academic, Augmented/Machina, Foundry, and quite a few one-ofs like Taelor, Flesh Constructs, Rogue Necromancies, Scorpius, Envy, Von Schill, Hannah, Arik, Phiona Gage...
There's a lot, okay. There's a lot of people I used to be able to eat that I can't now because "haha eat scrap markers instead" is a thing. Please reconsider this change @glorious dev leadership.

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2 hours ago, dzlier said:

I would say that if the intention of "Quick Feast" is to eat the corpse marker the killed model just dropped (I wasn't sure when I read it if that works out timing-wise), then it really should be called "Eaten Alive" or something.

Yeah, Quick Feast sounds lame no matter what it does. Should be something like 'Live Prey', or you know, just bring back the old grow mechanic. 😋

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I think they should change Quick Feast so that gain a grow token after killing something. Not forcing you to use Grim Feast means that you can kill a 50mm model without your opponent placing the corpse on the other side of the base and denying you your token.

Another alternative is just letting you grow after killing something, it's only 3ss and you don't heal after doing it, Mature Nephilim are crazy weak to ranged anyway and only hit a tiny bit harder than Young Nephs.

If that is too good maybe we could have a combination of the Mature ability and quick feast, by giving you 1 grow token for killing something weaker than you and 2 for killing something stronger.

Or just remove growth altogether and stop penalising Nephilim for it, they are all so weak to ranged, it hurts.

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47 minutes ago, LexLock said:

I think they should change Quick Feast so that gain a grow token after killing something. Not forcing you to use Grim Feast means that you can kill a 50mm model without your opponent placing the corpse on the other side of the base and denying you your token.

Another alternative is just letting you grow after killing something, it's only 3ss and you don't heal after doing it, Mature Nephilim are crazy weak to ranged anyway and only hit a tiny bit harder than Young Nephs.

If that is too good maybe we could have a combination of the Mature ability and quick feast, by giving you 1 grow token for killing something weaker than you and 2 for killing something stronger.

Or just remove growth altogether and stop penalising Nephilim for it, they are all so weak to ranged, it hurts.

I'm on board with returning Grow to be automatic when you kill something, it would seem to solve this issue. And then keep the part where it can happen during your turn.

In this way, if you kill something that drops a corpse marker, you have a chance to heal up after by eating the corpse, but if it drops a different marker, you still Grow, you just don't get the heal (but you still have the opportunity to get the model to safety if you have an Action left). Seems like a nice tradeoff.

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Marcus- for me lost oportunity, dosent need much to be in a good spot. Change 2 useless mutations into some utility ones and do something about his keyword models as initiates, moleman and bears are underwhelming. 

Titania- imo good to go

Nekima- imo failure, nothing exciting about 3ap henchman and for me her keyword is plain bad and overcosted

Dreamer- imo good to go

Zoraida - the voodoo curse and doll need rework otherwise no complains

Lucius- overall ok but Iam worried about chaining obeys into drawing. I have seen him draw new hand in one activation. The argument is his keyword is fragile and low damage but i think sooner or later someone will breal the engine with out of keyword models.

Euripides - seems good and fun, just rework thoon a bit

Pandora- no clue, too many changes from the games i played with her

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On one hand, I'm hoping all this negative opinion of Nekima will get her some more strength, on the other... it hurts reading people bad mouthing my girl 😢 @ the devs, please please please do not have some "Nicodem vs Lady J, vote now!" style "Lilith came back to fight Nekima, who gets control of the Nephilim" BS because this means that I'll lose my favorite model in the game. 

After my upcoming Jack Daw game, I'm wondering if Marcus in Neverborn might be my next foray.

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Really don't understand why most of the people says Titania in ready to go.

I played over 15 matches in the open beta and I ALWAYS lost or draw with Titania, maybe won once.

Now, for sure i'm absolutely not the most good gamer in the history of malifaux but that's a fact!

The last 3 games i lost 5-1 vs Tara with scion that stay buried and do anyway actions and evocations, vs Asami that summon 3 spiders during the game and other 3 models, vs Zipp that eat my scheme marker in a game where unfortunately i haven't pick kill schemes.

I played once vs Pandora, i let my friend play and i watched the game!

in the crew the very op things are titania and the rogarou with inhuman reflex, but if you want to try to play the game you have to spend 2/5 of your points in 2 minion with upgrade imho there's something wrong!

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19 minutes ago, Massi1989 said:

Really don't understand why most of the people says Titania in ready to go.

I played over 15 matches in the open beta and I ALWAYS lost or draw with Titania, maybe won once.

Now, for sure i'm absolutely not the most good gamer in the history of malifaux but that's a fact!

The last 3 games i lost 5-1 vs Tara with scion that stay buried and do anyway actions and evocations, vs Asami that summon 3 spiders during the game and other 3 models, vs Zipp that eat my scheme marker in a game where unfortunately i haven't pick kill schemes.

I played once vs Pandora, i let my friend play and i watched the game!

in the crew the very op things are titania and the rogarou with inhuman reflex, but if you want to try to play the game you have to spend 2/5 of your points in 2 minion with upgrade imho there's something wrong!

Beginning of turn 1 fly, germinate with trigger, use Queen's command with a low mask. That's 1-2 auto-damage to multiple models. Such models are now in concealing and severe terrain, which puts you on + flips with awakened hunger. Cast that.

Enemy crew now has half their movement taken away as they're already sitting on markers, and you likely damaged and injured a model in the process, and that's not counting the damage from Queen's command. Titania is also sitting in concealment due to germinate + Trigger.

Let your Mv6+Deadly pursuit models get where they need while your opponent wrangles out of the 6+ underbrush markers all around their deployment zone. Even your totem can start dropping markers before your opponent can.

Rogarou are some of the best anti-mitigation models in the game, having both the triggers you need against any layer of defense. Incorporeal, Armor, terrifying, serene countenance etc are all countered by taking a single big attack, and these guys are always hitting severes. They're also doing a single guaranteed point of damage through blade rush from Inhuman reflexes on top of that.

Titania is not OP by any means, but really good. Between her existence and Euripides', people are going to have to declare incorporeal/flight crews against neverborn.

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6 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

Beginning of turn 1 fly, germinate with trigger, use Queen's command with a low mask. That's 1-2 auto-damage to multiple models. Such models are now in concealing and severe terrain, which puts you on + flips with awakened hunger. Cast that.

Enemy crew now has half their movement taken away as they're already sitting on markers, and you likely damaged and injured a model in the process, and that's not counting the damage from Queen's command. Titania is also sitting in concealment due to germinate + Trigger.

Let your Mv6+Deadly pursuit models get where they need while your opponent wrangles out of the 6+ underbrush markers all around their deployment zone. Even your totem can start dropping markers before your opponent can.

Rogarou are some of the best anti-mitigation models in the game, having both the triggers you need against any layer of defense. Incorporeal, Armor, terrifying, serene countenance etc are all countered by taking a single big attack, and these guys are always hitting severes.

Titania is not OP by any means, but really good. Between her existence and Euripides', people are going to have to declare incorporeal/flight crews against neverborn.

You mention the only two models that is good: titania and rogarou!

speaking of kill joy is just one model without ss that is easy to slow! autumn knight without any type of action that let you change the game.

imho FAE is a flat crew.

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7 minutes ago, Massi1989 said:

You mention the only two models that is good: titania and rogarou!

speaking of kill joy is just one model without ss that is easy to slow! autumn knight without any type of action that let you change the game.

imho FAE is a flat crew.

No, Titania just happens to screw the other crew so that yours can go on with the game and start scoring.

Aeslin scores entire schemes on her own with Study and Draw out their secrets, and a scary damage track with the built-in suit.

 Bultungin are Mv6 scheme runners with Deadly pursuit for 5 stones and can deny markers with forage!

Knights can't keep up with Titania, and that's abouy as big as a problem Fae have right now.

Killjoy punishes you for killing him because that bultungin in your deployment zone can become a murder machine.

The crew is crazy fast, has scheme manipulation, slows the opponents to a crawling mass, the damage is really good across the board, and the totem gives Rogarou an extra life, coming in with stacks of focus. 

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I think thinking that the totem giving a rougarou a second life is a little limited in usage as well.

 

Could be a Hooded Rider, Killjoy, Doppelganger etc. Of course, it could also be a Rougarou, but still. I think having versatile models with unimpeded in this crew could be very strong.

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4 hours ago, Wenshai said:

I think thinking that the totem giving a rougarou a second life is a little limited in usage as well.

 

Could be a Hooded Rider, Killjoy, Doppelganger etc. Of course, it could also be a Rougarou, but still. I think having versatile models with unimpeded in this crew could be very strong.

It can’t actually come back as killjoy. KJ never actually dies, he just gets buried.  Unless of course you put Killjoys upgrade on it.

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True. Mb. Though it was the same kindve condition as Juju.

 

Either way. Gorar looks like a baller model to me, so long as he can stay out of the enemies way.

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I can really only give input on 1 of those in the list

 

The Dreamer

Dreamer himself I find still lacking in identity, as far as summoning masters go… I think he’s probably one of the worst if not the worst.

His summoning mechanic is overly conditional and still adds negatives to the summoned model. And summoning is really all he’s got on his cards that worth anything…the rest of his abilities are really lackluster.  

"Twist Reality" imo needs have its range increased a bit…. Dreamer isn’t a piece that’s played forward on the field…or his health needs to be increased to justify him being forward.

Ok, now I would love to see the following….put “BAM! Your Turn!” on “Twist Reality” or “Your Nightmare

All of the sudden you’ve got a play making master, that can get his crew into the fight at range. Take into account that nightmares aren’t really known for their ranged options and you’ve got some great play making mechanics and decent amount of added mobility that is badly needed.

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7 hours ago, Saduhem said:

No, Titania just happens to screw the other crew so that yours can go on with the game and start scoring.

Aeslin scores entire schemes on her own with Study and Draw out their secrets, and a scary damage track with the built-in suit.

 Bultungin are Mv6 scheme runners with Deadly pursuit for 5 stones and can deny markers with forage!

Knights can't keep up with Titania, and that's abouy as big as a problem Fae have right now.

Killjoy punishes you for killing him because that bultungin in your deployment zone can become a murder machine.

The crew is crazy fast, has scheme manipulation, slows the opponents to a crawling mass, the damage is really good across the board, and the totem gives Rogarou an extra life, coming in with stacks of focus. 

Titania can't stay alone vs all the enemy crew! you must give other target to the enemy.


The good thing of aeslin is the trigger on the attack, the study action is useless, or maybe casual: not all the crew drop corpse or scrap and the opponent chose where to put them!

bultungin are very good runner but they have 5 wounds, anyway the model is good!

knights are the worst in the crew.

killjoy should have some ability to reach the enemy faster, or maybe something to never get conditions. It's the only enforcer of the crew, he should be a obviously choice, he's not always!

"Scheme manipulation"??????????????????

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