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Hey, so this is what should be my final thoughts on the faction changes required

After playing loads and loads of games in the beta in a really competitive group of players putting the faction through it's paces 

Overall I'd feel comfortable saying we have probably the most balanced faction in the game right now. There was a real negative feeling about Ressers in m2e and they've received alot of attention in the betas and the result has been a solid faction with no stupid broken stuff (that I've managed to find in over 100 games of m3e anyway, and believe me, I've looked!)

So over the past couple of weeks I've played more games and looked for some last tweaks I think things need before the faction goes to print. Mostly just small changes to actions or abilities. Hopefully you guys can take this into consideration, I'd like to think I've been as impartial to the faction as I can be with my feedback, I'm not trying to make things broken and if stuff is good I've said that and tried to convince others it doesn't need a boost. With that in mind I'm suggesting things I feel add flavour or sort out dud or useless actions and hopefully you guys will consider them before the final cut 

Big intro for a fairly small list to be honest as the faction overall is almost ready to go

 

Carrion Effigy - remove gun from entropic siphon, really simple, everything about this model is short range, having it's attack use a gun icon just doesn't work

 

Flesh construct - +1 wd,  df/wp 4, in my games they get owned soooo quick. +1 wd would help make them feel better without shifting balance 

 

Molly- need to offer opponent card draw on the marker removal still or is that wasted text?

 

Phillip- this has become really obvious to me recently but boring topic bonus action just never ever gets used. This model relies heavily on manipulative to survive so the bonus action is wasted. Can we swap it for something else please. It's a thematic action which I love but doesn't work with manipulative 

 

Grave digger- change field of corpses to be a constant effect. Means can count corpses as schemes any turn and actually a niche reason to hire this guy. Still wouldn't be in many games but it would have a role

 

Bete- honestly not as bad as I thought. Still think +1 wd or a cost reduction by -1ss 

 

Belle- better but still not feeling the value. Could they have a bonus action to give slow?

 

Yin- I'm not sure on her. Not worth her stones and doesn't have a role. Her actions would need to change to give her a role in the crew to make her worth taking. Or a cost reduction to make her a more appealing ancestor 

 

Reva- I'm not sure what people are doing but the heal just doesn't come up often enough to keep her alive. I really believe she needs HTK back

 

Draugr- DF5, that is all

 

Albus Von Schtook- an ability to stop enemy models removing stunned would make his DF set up work. Enemy in LOS tries to remove, albus can inflict 1 wd on a friendly transmortis in 6" to stop it? Something like that. Or 12 wds, or see studied opponent suggestion at the end. He needs something to keep him alive longer 

 

Kirai- super card hungry on the defender, to be honest more cards than she can spare. I don't want to see Urami get card draw as this would push them into too good. Could kirai get manipulative back? She does alot of damage to herself and is often dictated when she must activate by the needs of her crew 

Also, I've got your back is just not being used. I'd like to see it changed to something akin to either swirl spirits or into the spirit world from m2e. A bonus similar to either of these would actually see use 

 

Datsue ba-  siphon power. That's it. I think it stops people hating her, makes her useful, doesn't do anything crazy she can't already do with soulstones 

 

Bone pile- enemy down below to bonus action

Throw em a bone to standard action

Make the heal 1/2/3. Then you have a solid utility model, can heal or remove condition but not both and damages itself to do it

 

Yan lo- split the soul as a trigger on one of his actions. Loads of chatter about doing this since the trigger came into existence. Chiaki needs to not be an auto include as she is a situationally brilliant model but not one for every game. This trigger fixes yans vulnerability turn 1/2 and I like how it plays into the empowering by ancestor theme

 

Guilty- I think we can instantly fix all tormented issues with one thing. Give guilty "by your side" BOOM you have a scheme runner. It uses a resource precious to Jack to keep it in check, and guilty no longer do all the card discarding so stops it being broken. With the change to them last week this now becomes a balanced option which it wasn't before. I also think, quite thematic 

 

And lastly

Studied opponent 

This has got some negativity as a really small buff on a really situational ability that rarely comes up in practice and I agree 

I've got a couple of suggestions that I think work thematically and balance wise to make this a worthwhile keyword ability 

The premise is the same, when one or more suits in an opposed duel match 

- if this model is the defender it reduces damage by +1, if this model is the attacker it increases damage by +1 

Or

- this model may draw a card 

Both a better option than the current one which rarely comes up and even more rarely has an impact. It's something heavily within your opponents control so I don't see an issue with either of these options coming in. Theme wise they both work for a studied opponent 

 

I've really enjoyed playing m3e and am excited about it being released, thanks for the opportunity to feedback and impact the new edition, it's looking great!

 

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3 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

 Reva- I'm not sure what people are doing but the heal just doesn't come up often enough to keep her alive. I really believe she needs HTK back

Draugr- DF5, that is all

Agree on both.

However, they already explicity said that Reva will not be getting HTK back as that would make her tankier than they wish her to be. Given this, I would say to make her 12 wounds again. 

I would also say the Restless Spirit needs +1 to Terrorize so he has an action he may realistically use beyond his :ToS-Fast: action.

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Guilty getting "by your side" sounds great. I'd have settled for Ligeia able to drop markers, but this is better.

Crooked man still dies too easily and Dead Outlaw isn't usable.

Make punishment (or drawn to betrayal) ignore terrain during the push and Tormented can stop being countered by a patch of woods, let alone crew made markers.

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4 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Reva- I'm not sure what people are doing but the heal just doesn't come up often enough to keep her alive. I really believe she needs HTK back

 

As a general rule her corpse candles are summoned near enough that when they die she heals.

You can generally choose to make her 0 action read - Heal 3 damage.  (Have her in a pyre marker so every action she takes gives her burning and then end the activation with this. And you have shielded +1 to counter the burning +1 you end with, and with ethereal reaping you can probably charge into a pyre marker and attack something else)

She has relatively easy to trigger on "anyones activation" healing. (as Corpse candles are fairly easy to kill if you need to)

Her crew has a bodyguard mechanic

and you think Hard to kill would be a good idea? 

I don't think she would ever die!

 

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1 hour ago, Saduhem said:

Guilty getting "by your side" sounds great. I'd have settled for Ligeia able to drop markers, but this is better.

Crooked man still dies too easily and Dead Outlaw isn't usable.

Make punishment (or drawn to betrayal) ignore terrain during the push and Tormented can stop being countered by a patch of woods, let alone crew made markers.

Yeah it wasn't an option for them before because it would have made them busted as hell. Now not an issue

 

1 hour ago, retnab said:

Studied Opponent giving card draw when the suits match sounds solid to me

Yeah it needs to do something else. It doesn't come up often and when it does it so rarely actually decides who wins a duel. You may get 2/3 cards a turn from it like this which is fine. Much less than some crews in other factions are getting but actually makes this ability worthwhile in a very suit hungry crew as well! I'd love to see this change to finish off transmortis as the models (aside from albus survivability) are spot on

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4 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Albus Von Schtook- an ability to stop enemy models removing stunned would make his DF set up work. Enemy in LOS tries to remove, albus can inflict 1 wd on a friendly transmortis in 6" to stop it? Something like that. Or 12 wds, or see studied opponent suggestion at the end. He needs something to keep him alive longer

Great ideas. I agree 12Wds at least would be nice. 

5 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

- this model may draw a card 

Both a better option than the current one which rarely comes up and even more rarely has an impact. It's something heavily within your opponents control so I don't see an issue with either of these options coming in. Theme wise they both work for a studied opponent 

LOVE this idea. Far more useful than the current iteration which simply does not have much impact. Especially compared to other 'theme' abilities which are much more common and useful all game. Please give this a go as it would really make Studied Opponent useful. Opponenets could still cheat to stop it from happening and might actually want to. Right now most of the time you are already winning by enough it doesn't matter or vice versa. 

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Nicodem and the mortuary/zombie keyword. Come on, look at Ramos and all the interactions he has! Every time one of the Electrical creations die, it's 3 cards for him. He has a better structured keyword that works, he supports really good his models. He has a proper hiring pool.

Looks like the Arcanist players did a great work helping on the design of Ramos while the Resurrectionist just completely forgot about him.

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5 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

And lastly

Studied opponent 

...

The premise is the same, when one or more suits in an opposed duel match 

...

- this model may draw a card 

1

So, I don't mind this idea in concept, but if you would want something like this to change, I recommend trying it out in a battle report and letting me see how it goes, beacuse as it stands:

Studied Opponent is in a strange spot for me, 

its fine & does its job, but takes significant amounts of game time (significant relative to other game mechanics) and honestly isn't providing too much to the crew. 

So if anyone wants to do a battle report with Transmortis and try and stress test this (preferably several reports) in the next week before we hit the "final" button, we can see how this goes.

If it's not broken and speeds up transmortis gameplay, I will consider it. Not making any promises just curious to see how it goes.

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Just now, matt said:

So, I don't mind this idea in concept, but if you would want something like this to change, I recommend trying it out in a battle report and letting me see how it goes, beacuse as it stands:

Studied Opponent is in a strange spot for me, 

its fine & does its job, but takes significant amounts of game time (significant relative to other game mechanics) and honestly isn't providing too much to the crew. 

So if anyone wants to do a battle report with Transmortis and try and stress test this (preferably several reports) in the next week before we hit the "final" button, we can see how this goes.

If it's not broken and speeds up transmortis gameplay, I will consider it.

I can certainly get a couple of games in with it on Friday so I'll get some battle reports up then

Thanks for the comment :)

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Carrion Effigy: entropic siphon also affects hollow waifs, who might not mind losing the projectile either (although I personally will be hiding waifs in concealing terrain every time).

Bone Pile: the enemy down below also affects soulstone miners, which currently function well after a few changes of the timing of bury/unbury, so please don’t change enemy down below again!

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1 minute ago, Gnomezilla said:

Carrion Effigy: entropic siphon also affects hollow waifs, who might not mind losing the projectile either (although I personally will be hiding waifs in concealing terrain every time).

Bone Pile: the enemy down below also affects soulstone miners, which currently function well after a few changes of the timing of bury/unbury, so please don’t change enemy down below again!

Enemy down below doesn't need to change. Just move from an action to a bonus action on this model IMO

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1 hour ago, matt said:

If it's not broken and speeds up transmortis gameplay, I will consider it. Not making any promises just curious to see how it goes.

Thanks for considering! I will try and get a game in ASAP. Having a toddler and working finals next week makes it very difficult... stupid adulting....

Hmmm. What should the timing be? After Resolving an Opposed Duel? After declaring the Duel Totals? 

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1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

Thanks for considering! I will try and get a game in ASAP. Having a toddler and working finals next week makes it very difficult... stupid adulting....

Hmmm. What should the timing be? After Resolving an Opposed Duel? After declaring the Duel Totals? 

I'd say after resolving an opposed duel to keep it flowing nicely 

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2 hours ago, matt said:

So, I don't mind this idea in concept, but if you would want something like this to change, I recommend trying it out in a battle report and letting me see how it goes, beacuse as it stands:

Studied Opponent is in a strange spot for me, 

its fine & does its job, but takes significant amounts of game time (significant relative to other game mechanics) and honestly isn't providing too much to the crew. 

So if anyone wants to do a battle report with Transmortis and try and stress test this (preferably several reports) in the next week before we hit the "final" button, we can see how this goes.

If it's not broken and speeds up transmortis gameplay, I will consider it. Not making any promises just curious to see how it goes.

I definitely agree that it takes quite some time to check this rule, especially compared to how often it actually impacts the result.
I don't I'll be able to play test this but huge thanks for people who will, and to Matt for considering this and be ready to check out even more battle reports :)

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I want to bring back again the Nicodem issue, some concerns:

Models in keyword:

  • Vulture:  If you manage to make him survive until the end of the turn, it could be useful somehow. But basically is 3" pulse for heal 1 in undead models.
  • Thomas Rafkin: It's just here for lore purposes.
  • Mortimer: Does his job. Better damage output than Nico, better surivavility and almost better support than Nicodem to undead. Slow but though. Same free action as Nico.
  • Gravedigger: Corpse marker generators. Good support model.

What does Nicodem do for them? Absolutly nothing. What do they do for Nicodem? Bring more corpse markers, whith which Nico can only interact once per turn and that he can bring by himself. So basically nothing. Yes both, support undead models.

Models he can hire (Zombie):
The redchappel ones:
They're built to work with Seamus and benefit from the Wp duels, being engaged while Seamus shoots people for insane damage and movement tricks.

  • Madame Sybelle: She's thought to work with Seamus, ot really with Nico. Useful if you build a Nicodem crew based on attacking by Wp, but that would imply that you won't use Corpse Conductor most of the time, because most attacks that work against Wp do not are melee.
  • Dead Doxy: Mostly the same as Madame Sybelle. They work better with Seamus.
  • Rotten Belle: more of the same.
  • Dead Dandy: More of the same, but they at least provide a cheap way of dealing with enemy scheme markers.

The Experimental ones:
They're just plain better with McMourning, that can give them free poison and help them to achieve their maximum potential. Even with Rafkin, they won't be as good.

  • Flesh Construct: With Df 4 and Wp4, really needs that poison to stay alive and reach CC.
  • Guild Autopsy: At least you can get 5 ss per game if you keep one of this alive close to Nico, but don't count it will do anything else during the whole game.

Others:

  • Rabble Raiser: Plain and simple. Works and does the job, even tho their damage track is not really special. 
  • Mindless Zombie: You're not going to hire this guys. Maximum 5.

Versatile options:

  • Asura rotten: This is a must in order to take some advantage of the Mindless Zombies. She has a better decay than Nico with the built-in Injuried +1. She would be a better master than Nico.
  • Grave Golem: The best choice to get some use for all those corpse tokens. It can heal Nico (1).
  • Bone Pile: Can get use of corpse markers. Solid pick to have some ranged thread. The "Throw them a bone" heal is anecdotic.
  • Sloth: He is a better candidate for using "Rigor Mortis". Would only bring him against a master with a lot of access to healing.
  • Effigy: No reason to bring her, the heal does not affect living models and for the Aura of Decay, Sloth would be better.
  • Carrion Emissary: A decent add to the crew. It's Mv bonus only affects living models, so no Asura, Mortimer, Nicodem or Gravediggers get it, would make the few undead you have get outside of the "Necrotic Font" bubbles. More focused on poison/injured. Exhumation is good, but we already have plenty of ways to bring mindless zombies and the limit is 5.
  • Dead Rider: Best way to move Nicodem around. Decent beater, but doesn't bring anything really interesting.

Models he can summon:

  • 7 Flesh Construct (Experimental)
  • 5 Guild autopsy (Experimental)
  • 6 Rabble Riser (Simple 6ss beater)
  • 6 Dead Doxy (Redchapel)
  • 5 Rotten Belle (Redchapel)
  • 4 Dead Dandy (Redchapel)
  • 2 Mindless zombie (They're to 

Survivality:
Df 4, Wp 7, Hard to Wound and Protected undead. Nothing really special here, since he is living so no access to healing in the faction.


Benefits to his keyword: 0
Benefits to Undead: in 6":aura, :+flip  to Df and :melee actions 
Accomplice: No way to draw cards and most likely won't have past tokens. So not really useful.

Attack actions:

  • Fancy cane: It's just there to have melee range.
  • Decay: Pretty standard attack without anyting special. It can heal Undead models. Mediocre damage.
  • Rigor Mortys: Use a 4+ to exchange a master action for another action in an undead model. Really situational and not at a master level without decent triggers.

Tactical actions

  • Summoning: Very standard, not really interesting pool. Requires a corpse marker for each summoned model. Have to spend a SS to summon an extra Mindless Zombie.
  • Grave robber: Need a 6 to make a corpse marker appear in 2". Is this really a master's free action?
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Just playing Devil's advocate here (As I'm in favor of a rehaul of studied opponent and I like the current idea) but, with many models with armor and Htw, is it possible that cheating low cards to match suits offers card draw with not much negative impact considering that it will also occur (sometimes) as a normal outcome of the duel?

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm in favor, I just want to make sure we're not promoting something that might be too good.

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4 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

Just playing Devil's advocate here (As I'm in favor of a rehaul of studied opponent and I like the current idea) but, with many models with armor and Htw, is it possible that cheating low cards to match suits offers card draw with not much negative impact considering that it will also occur (sometimes) as a normal outcome of the duel?

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm in favor, I just want to make sure we're not promoting something that might be too good.

Possibly. If it's easy to break that way we could always make it after Succeeding an opposed duel rather than Resolving. Then Cheating Low won't help you, but your opponent could do so to block you from getting a card if they are already losing. 

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I'll test it and see. My gut feeling is with how infrequently it comes up it won't be an issue. Not alot of built in suits on the crew outside albus and Anna and at the point you're cheating in to draw a card it's just a card cycle by taking damage which is less powerful than alot of the draw mechanics in the game atm 

Looking forward to testing it and seeing

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The concern is for those duels in which you'd fail anyway, and due to armor and Htw you're not really taking more damage than you would have by not cheating a low matching suit. It might be something to keep track of for the guys that are going out and testing this. Probably not an issue, but better to be overzealous in the scrutiny.

I'm going to have a hectic week and, If i do get a game in, it would probably be one last tormented match. So no Transmortis testing for me :(

Speaking of which, if anyone feels like testing tormented, make sure to include severe terrain or play against any keyword that can create markers. Put crooked men on the table and remember that this edition around pushes don't ignore severe.

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3 hours ago, Saduhem said:

The concern is for those duels in which you'd fail anyway, and due to armor and Htw you're not really taking more damage than you would have by not cheating a low matching suit. It might be something to keep track of for the guys that are going out and testing this. Probably not an issue, but better to be overzealous in the scrutiny.

I'm going to have a hectic week and, If i do get a game in, it would probably be one last tormented match. So no Transmortis testing for me :(

Speaking of which, if anyone feels like testing tormented, make sure to include severe terrain or play against any keyword that can create markers. Put crooked men on the table and remember that this edition around pushes don't ignore severe.

Possibly but your hand is a finite resource and albus normally spaffs a couple on hitting his TNs. I imagine you'd draw 2/3 cards a turn based on how much it came up in my previous games which would be fine, certainly less that other crews are capable of! But we will see, I'll put it through it's paces on Friday in a couple of games and keep a track of how much card draw it nets me 

 

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7 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Possibly but your hand is a finite resource and albus normally spaffs a couple on hitting his TNs. I imagine you'd draw 2/3 cards a turn based on how much it came up in my previous games which would be fine, certainly less that other crews are capable of! But we will see, I'll put it through it's paces on Friday in a couple of games and keep a track of how much card draw it nets me 

 

That's how I think it's going to play out in the end. I just don't want to end up playing a faction that's always considered "broken" or "filth" like last edition. That's partly why I'm a bit cautious about any buffs.

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46 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

To be fair it wasn’t the faction, at the tail end it was Nicodem.

Reva, Molly, and Kirai too for the longest time.

Hopefully this time around it won't be that way, and ideally play Yan Lo and Jack Daw without feeling gimped. 

Anyway, focusing on M3e alone, there is still a power disparity within the faction (which has been reliably addressed throughout the updates). Really hoping the next one will shrink those separations more before the big "Print" button is pressed.

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