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Angelshard

Increase cost on Zoraida

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Seems to me Zoraida is the most used secondary master in neverborn. 

Personally think her cost should increase to 18. She doesn't have to pay for her totem and her efficiency is quite independent from her crew. On top of that it seems most of the really nasty combos people find involves her. Increasing her cost would make those combos less efficient without harming her own crew. 

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Problem is that you get her totem for free, so unlike any other master she doesn't have to pay the extra tax for that, making 17 really low for a master plus totem. 18 before tax would put her more in line with other masters plus totem. 

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44 minutes ago, Rift said:

totem is only relevant if enemy is within 12 of z. and you give them pass tokens.

Which you probably have plenty of yourself since fielding a second master most of the time does not result in an overboarding model count in your own crew.

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

Problem is that you get her totem for free, so unlike any other master she doesn't have to pay the extra tax for that, making 17 really low for a master plus totem. 18 before tax would put her more in line with other masters plus totem. 

I agree and I probably wouldn't even be complaining if it would be 19 plus tax. Zoraida is crazy good on her own even though some people seem to argue this fact.

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The argument becomes what the intent behind hiring 2 masters is? I personally don’t want certain masters in any faction to basically become the Nekima of this edition. If you are seeing the same master hired as a 2nd master all the time, than it’s a problem.

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56 minutes ago, Rift said:

I don't think anyone is saying shes not good

There are some that do. Or did - at least there has been a thread a couple of weeks ago where there's been a somewhat heated argument on whether she is the best or the worst NB master currently.

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@Rift A pass token for the opportunity to throw irresistible conditions at an opponents master or key beater is a non cost. No one is ever going to not summon the doll because of a pass token if there's an enemy model within 12".

Also it's besides the point. The issue is that you get both master and totem for 17 stones, making it a much cheaper package than almost any other master. Add to that the fact that she's a really good secondary master and I would argue her cost needs to go up. This way she won't recieve any nerfs that affects her own keyword or herself as leader, but would still tone down how good a secondary master she is. 

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Rift said:

doesnt that speak of a problem with our master pool...and their respective "power level"?

Surely the only thing hiring a second master would speak of is the relative power of that second master vs the other choice in faction, since that's what you are comparing it to. Always Hiring Zoraida as a second master is unrelated to the power of the first master, it would be related to the power of Zoraida vs the other options you could hire for that cost.

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Hmmm, i dont know so much. If the 1st master was strong enough on its own it wouldn't need the support from Zoraida as the second.

 

She helps my dreamer a lot with friendly model positioning which I think Dreamer really lacks on his own.

 

Imo...she brings unpredictable threat to whichever crew is supporting, and that is her strength.... and I really like it.

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13 minutes ago, Rift said:

Hmmm, i dont know so much. If the 1st master was strong enough on its own it wouldn't need the support from Zoraida as the second.

 

She helps my dreamer a lot with friendly model positioning which I think Dreamer really lacks on his own.

 

Imo...she brings unpredictable threat to whichever crew is supporting, and that is her strength.... and I really like it.

Surely every master will get some support from the crew you hire. And regardless of the Masters power you will hire the most powerful crew for that Master that is available.

Once you are hiring the crew, in many ways it doesn't matter what station the model holds, its about does it give you a worthwhile result for the cost of it in stones.

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17 minutes ago, Rift said:

Hmmm, i dont know so much. If the 1st master was strong enough on its own it wouldn't need the support from Zoraida as the second.

 

She helps my dreamer a lot with friendly model positioning which I think Dreamer really lacks on his own.

 

Imo...she brings unpredictable threat to whichever crew is supporting, and that is her strength.... and I really like it.

That's kind of the issue. Zoraida is a very strong choice on her own but her own Keyword has limited options.

Zoraida as a second Master complements all other NB Masters and improves them by a considerate margin. A margin which you probably (or surely) won't get when you hired other models.

The comparison to M2E Nekima is actually pretty good. There was almost no NB crew in M2E that was built without Nekima or at least the consideration to hire her. She brought so much to the table that her steep cost of 13 stones was almost always worth the investment - even without pass tokens and the risk of being outactivated.

 

@Angelshard is completely right: Zoraida on her own is fine enough so she does not need nerfs in order to be in line with other first master picks. She is however such a versatile second master pick that the only thing necessary to bring her in line would be to simply raise her cost (which obviously would not affect her as a first master).

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25 minutes ago, Rift said:

Hmmm, i dont know so much. If the 1st master was strong enough on its own it wouldn't need the support from Zoraida as the second.

 

She helps my dreamer a lot with friendly model positioning which I think Dreamer really lacks on his own.

 

Imo...she brings unpredictable threat to whichever crew is supporting, and that is her strength.... and I really like it.

I don't like the "respectfully disagree" without comments, so I'll be more specific.

 

A secondary master is just a normal model from your hiring pool. It has nothing to do with power level. I think specific powerful masters will hire secondary ones. I know Lucius + Dashel was a thing and Justice was hired as a secondary even with masters that don't struggle with power level.

 

Now if a non-versatile and non-keyword model is hired regularly in any crew, then it might be potentially too good. 

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2 minutes ago, trikk said:

I don't like the "respectfully disagree" without comments, so I'll be more specific.

 

A secondary master is just a normal model from your hiring pool. It has nothing to do with power level. I think specific powerful masters will hire secondary ones. I know Lucius + Dashel was a thing and Justice was hired as a secondary even with masters that don't struggle with power level.

 

Now if a non-versatile and non-keyword model is hired regularly in any crew, then it might be potentially too good. 

A master is a non-versatile and non-keyword model? :)

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Just now, Gesuma said:

A master is a non-versatile and non-keyword model? :)

What I meant is non-versatile out-of-keyword model. Sorry for the confusion.

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Anyways Zoraida as support for a dreamer crew is very powerful. Zoraida gets totem, sacs for card draw and more importantly a scrap that weaver uses to summon the strong stiched models.
And then after that Zoraida provide a ton of neat tricks for an already strong dreamer crew, but at least the dreamer crew is strong without that help.

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4 minutes ago, Gesuma said:

Anyways Zoraida as support for a dreamer crew is very powerful. Zoraida gets totem, sacs for card draw and more importantly a scrap that weaver uses to summon the strong stiched models.
And then after that Zoraida provide a ton of need tricks for an already strong dreamer crew, but at least the dreamer crew is strong without that help.

I got traumatized by Zoraida when she discarded a RJ, a 12R, 11R, 10 from my hand :(

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7 minutes ago, Gesuma said:

And then after that Zoraida provide a ton of need tricks for an already strong dreamer crew, but at least the dreamer crew is strong without that help.

Again, that's the issue here. Dreamer could play on his own, but when Zoraida makes him and his crew considerably better then it's a no-brainer to include her.

You could replace "Dreamer" with "Neverborn Master" and it would still apply.

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6 minutes ago, bsm86 said:

Again, that's the issue here. Dreamer could play on his own, but when Zoraida makes him and his crew considerably better then it's a no-brainer to include her.

You could replace "Dreamer" with "Neverborn Master" and it would still apply.

A lot of other masters got something that makes them a lot less valueable if not leader. She is missing that. Maybe her ability to summon the Totem should be leader only. It is not like she does not have a ton of other support abilities to do instead.

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8 minutes ago, bsm86 said:

Again, that's the issue here. Dreamer could play on his own, but when Zoraida makes him and his crew considerably better then it's a no-brainer to include her.

You could replace "Dreamer" with "Neverborn Master" and it would still apply.

Are neverborn crews so bad that they don't have models worth 17ss instead of Zoraida? As a Bayou player I don't have such problems, so realy curious.

Zoraida is a good secondary master and can do a lot of things. But 17ss is already 1/3 of crew. Making her 19ss to hire (18+1) will make her not worth hiring at all.

If you want good models never step out of keyword, then why not ban out-of-keyword hiring and secondary masters? Or make the tax 3or 5 or 10 stones?

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1 minute ago, Scoffer said:

Are neverborn crews so bad that they don't have models worth 17ss instead of Zoraida? As a Bayou player I don't have such problems, so realy curious.

Zoraida is a good secondary master and can do a lot of things. But 17ss is already 1/3 of crew. Making her 19ss to hire (18+1) will make her not worth hiring at all.

If you want good models never step out of keyword, then why not ban out-of-keyword hiring and secondary masters? Or make the tax 3or 5 or 10 stones?

This is exactly why I don't like secondary master hiring. They either become not worth the investment or go to basically auto-picks. 

I would make the "swap hands" Leader only. She still obeys, summons and can put conditions on but her crazy card draw is out.

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