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Kyle

Putting a Fork (or Giant Spoon) in It!

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If that means Tormented models get a few more tweaks to be in line with the rest and be playable in more scheme pools :}

Also sounds like we're talking about the Dead Outlaw

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2 hours ago, Kyle said:

Hey everyone,

We are still reading feedback and battle reports. You have spoken, and we're listening.

We are taking some extra time to address some of the corner-case models and Crews that we've heard since this announcement as "definitely not ready." This is very much not an update for things that are nice to have, but rather, an update to address models that are considered never worth putting on the table

Expect a stealth update that covers only a few models, and another update of similar size in two weeks. 

But then... we're done! Definitely this time! Seriously! I mean it!

 

Reva gets HTK confirmed?

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17 minutes ago, matt said:

So I want to take a moment and address this specifically and why she won't be adjusted in this way. 

Hard to Kill is a very useful ability that is the third most common ability in the game showing up on 59 models/Upgrades. In the past, we have used this ability as a game-design crutch of "this model dies too fast" so we put HTK on it and called it good.

We don't see this as the best Approach for Reva, as she is a master who has several options to burst heal herself or her crew, (Final Veil, Embrace the Flame, Feed on Greef) and plays a very mid-line gameplay, hiding behind her own crew and using her Pyres to block for her. In this state, we feel that Hard to Kill combined with her burst and Passive Healing (Final Veil) could result in a NPE for her opponent as well as pushing a very tanky gameplay style that we do not intend for Reva.

Couldnt agree more. 

I played against her last night... she was able to get Manos reliquary upgrade on her as well... (regen +2 and Undying) It. Was. Brutal. Not NPE, but it felt strong with her speed, healing, and pyre positioning. She healed a lot with Embrace the flame, feed on grief,  Final veil, regen, and she died a few times to come back with undying.. :) LOL. Htk wouldve made me very sad in that instance. 

She is fast, she is a mid backline master with pyre marker placement with plenty of reach. She absolutely doesnt need HTK if players are optimizing her crews design.  

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Any chance of getting abilities re-named so that the name means what the ability does?

 

Misaki's Waldo today has two perfect examples:

Charge Through: She doesn't charge through anything, she hits it really hard. Confusing, since there are abilities that actually let you charge through stuff in the game, and there are a hundred other names that would signify hit harder on a charge.

Extended Reach: She doesn't get a longer reach, enemy stuff can't take charge attacks. Call it Protected Ground or Web of Steel or Offensive Defence or something, because at the moment the name sounds like she has extended reach when she attacks or something.

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18 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

Couldnt agree more. 

I played against her last night... she was able to get Manos reliquary upgrade on her as well... (regen +2 and Undying) It. Was. Brutal. Not NPE, but it felt strong with her speed, healing, and pyre positioning. She healed a lot with Embrace the flame, feed on grief,  Final veil, regen, and she died a few times to come back with undying.. :) LOL. Htk wouldve made me very sad in that instance. 

She is fast, she is a mid backline master with pyre marker placement with plenty of reach. She absolutely doesnt need HTK if players are optimizing her crews design.  

There are a few questions raised about how this was allowed to happen, what with the reliquary and all, but that feels like it would require a BatRep.

To claim that she doesn’t need HTK if being optimized is incorrect. Burst healing is only good so long as you are able to live to heal back up because you cannot heal from being dead. Once you are dead the burst healing doesn’t matter.

Players are not going to go into Reva blindly, and will prepare accordingly once she is declared. Leaps and ranged attacks will easily overcome 11 wounds and Def 5.

Also, Pyre Marker placement means nothing for defense. If i can suffer a Burning or two, which means I take take 1 damage at end of Turn, to kill your master, I am going to do it. 

Edited by TheJoyInGaming
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6 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

There are a few questions raised about how this was allowed to happen, what with the reliquary and all, but that feels like it would require a BatRep.

To claim that she doesn’t need HTK if being optimized is incorrect. Burst healing is only good so long as you are able to live to heal back up because you cannot heal from being dead. Once you are dead the burst healing doesn’t matter.

 Its not incorrect, you disagree.

That's just part of playing the game... Use SS to mitigate damage, bring extras knowing its your only Df tech available. Use Shield bearers,  and make them come to you. Dont just throw Reva up the board into the teeth of enemy crews. Use her mobility to keep them chasing, use corpse markers to attack from range. She has plenty of mid line options and should, for the most part, be out of danger when optimizing her strengths.

In regards to reliquary game last night...  

Flank Deployment with Outflank in the pool. Bushwhacker is deployed FTS in a corner. Manos Walks, leaps, charges Bushwhacker and drops him to 2 health. Rooster gets hollered by Lass to move in that direction. Asura summons a mindless zombie on a table edge right next to Manos. Manos gets slaughtered by the BW disengaging and shooting him in the face, then a rooster focuses and shoots twice (reckless). I had a RJ and a 13 in hand to get through 6 damage on the focused shot, then shot again. Manos got shot 3 times early and with a 6 damage RJ he was dead. Reliquary went on to the mindless zombie. Reva moves up and mindless zombie gives the reliquary to Reva with the action printed on the upgrade. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

 Its not incorrect, you disagree.

That's just part of playing the game... Use SS to mitigate damage, bring extras knowing its your only Df tech available. Use Shield bearers,  and make them come to you. Dont just throw Reva up the board into the teeth of enemy crews. Use her mobility to keep them chasing, use corpse markers to attack from range. She has plenty of mid line options and should, for the most part, be out of danger when optimizing her strengths.

In regards to reliquary game last night...  

Flank Deployment with Outflank in the pool. Bushwhacker is deployed FTS in a corner. Manos Walks, leaps, charges Bushwhacker and drops him to 2 health. Rooster gets hollered by Lass to move in that direction. Asura summons a mindless zombie on a table edge right next to Manos. Manos gets slaughtered by the BW disengaging and shooting him in the face, then a rooster focuses and shoots twice (reckless). I had a RJ and a 13 in hand to get through 6 damage on the focused shot, then shot again. Manos got shot 3 times early and with a 6 damage RJ he was dead. Reliquary went on to the mindless zombie. Reva moves up and mindless zombie gives the reliquary to Reva with the action printed on the upgrade. 

 

Opponents will optimize killing Reva quickly. Just because Reva has healing doesn’t mean she isn’t squishy. It means that should they fail for some reason then she can recover.

Also corpse markers can only be used from range if she is unengaged last I checked. She also has no means of disengaging beyond her mask trigger on an attack or wasting an action to disengage. So if I am an opponent, and i throw some model at her to kill her and fail, it means thats she won’t be able to use her range as effectively. It also means she has to kill it, good luck if it has armor, or use the disenegage action, which is not what you want to be doing with a Master’s action.

Frankly, the idea that Reva is a midline Master is kinda off given everything I have mentioned. She is more of a backfield master with low ranges.

Also, if she had the demise ability from the reliquary from Manos, didn’t she already have a form of HTK with additonal healing? And didn’t you just say that that wasn’t an NPE?

Seems like an argument in HTK’s favor...

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4 hours ago, Kyle said:

Hey everyone,

We are still reading feedback and battle reports. You have spoken, and we're listening.

We are taking some extra time to address some of the corner-case models and Crews that we've heard since this announcement as "definitely not ready." This is very much not an update for things that are nice to have, but rather, an update to address models that are considered never worth putting on the table

Expect a stealth update that covers only a few models, and another update of similar size in two weeks. 

But then... we're done! Definitely this time! Seriously! I mean it!

Is the update today? This week? Next week?

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@matt that's a really helpful insight as to the underlying design philosophy behind Reva (albeit in that particular case I'd have accepted "reva with hard to kill can get in the sea" ). Flippancy aside, it is genuinely helpful.

 

Without wishing to open the flood gates can I ask for your comments on the philosophy behind the current version of the bayou gremlin? There's obviously been a lot of chat about this on the bayou forum re their role and a general, albeit not unanimous, desire for them to be capable of interacting even if it meant a higher cost (with some other tweaks)? 

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1 hour ago, Rosskov said:

@matt that's a really helpful insight as to the underlying design philosophy behind Reva (albeit in that particular case I'd have accepted "reva with hard to kill can get in the sea" ). Flippancy aside, it is genuinely helpful.

Agreed. I do appreciate this insight offered by devs.

And while I do think Reva needs HTK, I think she is still in a good spot and an absolute BLAST to play.

Though if HTK is out of the question can she at least go back to 12 wounds?

Edited by TheJoyInGaming

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2 hours ago, Fixxer said:

 Its not incorrect, you disagree.

That's just part of playing the game... Use SS to mitigate damage, bring extras knowing its your only Df tech available. Use Shield bearers,  and make them come to you. Dont just throw Reva up the board into the teeth of enemy crews. Use her mobility to keep them chasing, use corpse markers to attack from range. She has plenty of mid line options and should, for the most part, be out of danger when optimizing her strengths.

In regards to reliquary game last night...  

Flank Deployment with Outflank in the pool. Bushwhacker is deployed FTS in a corner. Manos Walks, leaps, charges Bushwhacker and drops him to 2 health. Rooster gets hollered by Lass to move in that direction. Asura summons a mindless zombie on a table edge right next to Manos. Manos gets slaughtered by the BW disengaging and shooting him in the face, then a rooster focuses and shoots twice (reckless). I had a RJ and a 13 in hand to get through 6 damage on the focused shot, then shot again. Manos got shot 3 times early and with a 6 damage RJ he was dead. Reliquary went on to the mindless zombie. Reva moves up and mindless zombie gives the reliquary to Reva with the action printed on the upgrade. 

 

 

2 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Opponents will optimize killing Reva quickly. Just because Reva has healing doesn’t mean she isn’t squishy. It means that should they fail for some reason then she can recover.

Also corpse markers can only be used from range if she is unengaged last I checked. She also has no means of disengaging beyond her mask trigger on an attack or wasting an action to disengage. So if I am an opponent, and i throw some model at her to kill her and fail, it means thats she won’t be able to use her range as effectively. It also means she has to kill it, good luck if it has armor, or use the disenegage action, which is not what you want to be doing with a Master’s action.

Frankly, the idea that Reva is a midline Master is kinda off given everything I have mentioned. She is more of a backfield master with low ranges.

Also, if she had the demise ability from the reliquary from Manos, didn’t she already have a form of HTK with additonal healing? And didn’t you just say that that wasn’t an NPE?

Seems like an argument in HTK’s favor...

I agree with @Fixxer here. Reva is in a pretty good spot, and given her HtK would put her quite over-the-top. On the other hand, rising his wounds to 12 would be a better approach in my opinion, but I think that she is already fine, and this is why:

  • Really good movement with unimpeded
  • Easy access to shielded +1
  • 4 different ways to heal herself
    • Final veil
    • Feed on Grief
    • The unquiet dead
    • Embrace the flame
  • Being able to attack through pyre markers/corpse markers/models with shielded.
  • She can punish the enemy by putting pyre markers on the charge line
  • Shieldbearer can take hits for her

Definetly, HtK should be out of the table.

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2 hours ago, trikk said:

Is the update today? This week? Next week?

We hope to have a small update tomorrow, and another one the week of the 18th. Next week, we'll be at a convention, so we'll have Waldo watch over the forums.

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1 minute ago, ShinChan said:

 

I agree with @Fixxer here. Reva is in a pretty good spot, and given her HtK would put her quite over-the-top. On the other hand, rising his wounds to 12 would be a better approach in my opinion, but I think that she is already fine, and this is why:

  • Really good movement with unimpeded
  • Easy access to shielded +1
  • 4 different ways to heal herself
    • Final veil
    • Feed on Grief
    • The unquiet dead
    • Embrace the flame
  • Being able to attack through pyre markers/corpse markers/models with shielded.
  • She can punish the enemy by putting pyre markers on the charge line
  • Shieldbearer can take hits for her

Definetly, HtK should be out of the table.

Fixxer's mini BatRep where Reva obtained Manos' reliquary doesn't show HTK to be op. Mind you, the two abilities are not exactly the same but they do both provide the same speed bump to killing Reva in one activation. He himself even explicitly stated it wasn't over-powered. You are also not taking into account exactly how all of the methods she has to heal practically play out:

  • Really good movement with unimpeded (No extra movement abilities, hampered if engaged)
  • Easy access to shielded +1 (only if she lights herself on fire in Pyres or is near Pyres, which are generally close to enemies. So you likely need to be in Melee range. Either that or not heal anybody else but her with her bonus. If you don't reduce Burning from bonus then you will be suffering damage from Burning at each subsequent end of Turn.)
  • 4 different ways to heal herself
    • Final veil  (Good)
    • Feed on Grief (Situational)
    • The unquiet dead (Need to be near Pyres. Also costs a Pyre Marker. Also only heals 1. Also means need to be near enemies who will be punching you.)
    • Embrace the flame (Good)
  • Being able to attack through pyre markers/corpse markers/models with shielded. (Ethereal Reaping is hampered by being engaged, thus nullifying Corpse and Shield nodes.)
  • She can punish the enemy by putting pyre markers on the charge line (This is not a good punishment. Pyres don't even deal immediate damage.)
  • Shieldbearer can take hits for her (Only while within 2". At the cost of a card. When Revenants have no innate card draw. Why is a Shieldbearer midfield with Reva when they are designed as a close combat model? Or why is Reva in close engagement with Shieldbearers next to enemies punching her?)

Hard to Kill clearly would not be OP. Not that that matters, given that this isn't being considered anyways.

At the very least Reva should go back to 12 wounds.

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I absolutely get that my experience last night with the Reliquary on Reva is anecdotal. I've played against here a few times in the beta and never felt like she was squishy. Im just stating that it happened and was a pretty strong combination, if HTK would've been on the card also, it wouldve been too much. 

3 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

Also, if she had the demise ability from the reliquary from Manos, didn’t she already have a form of HTK with additonal healing? And didn’t you just say that that wasn’t an NPE?

Seems like an argument in HTK’s favor...

 It would've added another layer of 2 more attacks needed to kill her. She'd hit 1 wd HTK, hit her again to kill, demise, back to 4 health, another HTK to get through. Its basically 2 more actions that need to hit, this is a huge deal. 

 

 

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Just now, Fixxer said:

I absolutely get that my experience last night with the Reliquary on Reva is anecdotal. I've played against here a few times in the beta and never felt like she was squishy. Im just stating that it happened and was a pretty strong combination, if HTK would've been on the card also, it wouldve been too much. 

 It would've added another layer of 2 more attacks needed to kill her. She'd hit 1 wd HTK, hit her again to kill, demise, back to 4 health, another HTK to get through. Its basically 2 more actions that need to hit, this is a huge deal. 

 

 

I don't think that is a problem with HTK on her though. It is either too circumstantial so its combination with Manos' Reliquary needs to be dismissed, or Manos' reliquary needs looked at. That Demise on a non-Yan Lo Master seems silly. (Don't hate me if something happens to Manos, Yan Lo players. I know he just got buffed...)

I fully accept that my experiences may not be the norm (I chiefly play 10 Thunders, esp Misaki). I accept that this is a concern of the game designers and they do not want it back on her, and I really do appreciate that they are looking at the game like this for potential issues before being implemented. Again, kudos to you guys.

I still think she is too squishy though, and feel 12 wounds would help us Revenant players feel like she won't go down to a stiff breeze, at least not as quickly...

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@matt sorry Matt for this boring question, only if you have time, can i ask you in brief, your opinion about Urami/Kirai? 

Everyone here are agree that she  is perfect, i find  her crew really bad designed.

I'm not asking this, for change her, i just would like to ear an opinion of a dev. only if possible.

Thank you!

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4 hours ago, Kyle said:

We hope to have a small update tomorrow, and another one the week of the 18th. Next week, we'll be at a convention, so we'll have Waldo watch over the forums.

Will there be any forums when you get back?

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On 3/2/2019 at 8:07 AM, Kuruk said:

I second this. There are quite a few people who where interested in playing but got repeled by the lack of german playing material (especially stat cards). So  please give us localised versions. You guys made such a great game, please let it become big everywhere now. 

I'm surprised its not a default honestly. Like you look up Malifaux on twitter and theres a lotta japanese folks playing. I know stuff like Chaosiums Call of Cthulu is popular over there as a 'trpg' and got a native jp translation but do they have to puzzle their way through an english copy by default?

I mean hey i'm English so an english language version isn't a personal problem and i get a smaller product can't pull off the same stuff GW does with ease but i assumed multi language options would be the norm. Its more regions buying models at the end of the day right?

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The announcement page confirms multiple languages on launch:

Quote
  • An Accessible Rules Manual: M3E's rules and stat cards will be released online for free at release. The rules and stat cards will also be translated in seven languages at release as well: English, French, German, Italian, Polish, Russian, and Spanish. 

 

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4 hours ago, dope_danny said:

I'm surprised its not a default honestly. Like you look up Malifaux on twitter and theres a lotta japanese folks playing. I know stuff like Chaosiums Call of Cthulu is popular over there as a 'trpg' and got a native jp translation but do they have to puzzle their way through an english copy by default?

I had once traveled to Japan and had some good games with the community there. Henchman and some players there had made their own Japanese version rule book and GG18. I as well had translated some content to my local language (not the whole rule book though).

Wyrd may run some player-base translate program that let players provider their translation and others can vote the most proper one. 

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19 hours ago, retnab said:

The announcement page confirms multiple languages on launch:

 

Right!
But what about it? Where's it at? Any progress so far? Have professional translators been hired already?

Not to be agressive in any way, but you should have seen the mess that' s been done for M2E before we got something decent... (again, I'm speaking for my fellow players here in France. I am teaching English in France, and I have a degree (well not up to a real PhD, but something in-between) in English literature. So I can't say I'm concerned about my having a local version. It's just that if we don't get a local version, people around here won't play... And a player is a customer... Just saying...

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I found in Portugal when playing warmachine all the players had very good English and there was a large community. 

They said this is because all the films they liked over the years were in English (things like star wars, star trek, marvel) and all the rulebooks for the games were never translated into Portuguese.

Was a very welcoming community and I'm just glad that it worked out that way. It also seems that most people asking for translated books are doing so in perfect English.

I'm hopeful for you guys that they do books in your language but it seems you have no problems with them (or the beta files) in English so this would seem be a secondary concern to getting 3e out in a timely manner 

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6 hours ago, katadder said:

... It also seems that most people asking for translated books are doing so in perfect English.

I'm hopeful for you guys that they do books in your language but it seems you have no problems with them (or the beta files) in English so this would seem be a secondary concern to getting 3e out in a timely manner...

If I must communicate a question in my second language (which I do not know well enough to, for example, read a rule set), I don’t rely on my knowledge of the language, I get someone who can speak it to ask the question for me. Same phenomenon here, I think.

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On 3/13/2019 at 8:34 AM, katadder said:

I found in Portugal when playing warmachine all the players had very good English and there was a large community. 

They said this is because all the films they liked over the years were in English (things like star wars, star trek, marvel) and all the rulebooks for the games were never translated into Portuguese.

Was a very welcoming community and I'm just glad that it worked out that way. It also seems that most people asking for translated books are doing so in perfect English.

I'm hopeful for you guys that they do books in your language but it seems you have no problems with them (or the beta files) in English so this would seem be a secondary concern to getting 3e out in a timely manner 

An English-only game in France will have about as much success an a Spanish-only game in the US. There'll be a small motivated community, but the general public will look elsewhere. This is much less of a problem in smaller countries, because there's less choice. But if a French player wants a miniature game in French, the offer is huge, the market is already saturated. There is absolutely no need to make the effort of playing in English. And that is before mentioning how difficult is to buy Malifaux in France, when every bigger town has a Warhammer store.

Also, non-native English speakers registered here do not represent the entire player base and even less the potential player base. We registered here, because we already speak English well enough to follow the forums. Members are not asking for the translated version of the rules for themselves, but for all those potential players that will simply refuse to play a game that's only in English.

 

P.S.: No, I am not French, just an observer :D

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