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Flippin' Wyrd George

Ironsides resist trigger: is it so good it's pointless?

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guys calm down. M&su is slow, predictable and incredibly easy to counter. I can't hear it anymore. All that complaining about mediocre crews from people, who seems not to be willing to think around the corner or searching for answers on their own. 

No, I don't want to blame anyone. But for christ sake, please think about possible counterplay (and yes, it exists) , before raging here. 

That's a reason, why  that whole open beta thing just don't works in my opinion. Because most of the complains in all factions are pure emotional reactions, after getting beaten up, by crews that look super strong at the first glance . And most of the time, it's simply the surprise Effekt. And nothing more. 

What a shame. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Winterfeld said:

guys calm down. M&su is slow, predictable and incredibly easy to counter. I can't hear it anymore. All that complaining about mediocre crews from people, who seems not to be willing to think around the corner or searching for answers on their own. 

No, I don't want to blame anyone. But for christ sake, please think about possible counterplay (and yes, it exists) , before raging here. 

That's a reason, why  that whole open beta thing just don't works in my opinion. Because most of the complains in all factions are pure emotional reactions, after getting beaten up, by crews that look super strong at the first glance . And most of the time, it's simply the surprise Effekt. And nothing more. 

What a shame. 

I really enjoy when people think everybody has an emotional reaction and can't play but they, themselves, are totally unbiased and logical.

If M&SU is slow, predictable and easy to counter but Ironsides has a trigger people don't find fun to play against and it turns out they are not willing to attack her, maybe what needs to be done is make them less slow, less predictable, harder to counter but change Ironsides trigger?

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My experience with Toni is Ophelia almost single handingly killing Toni up close and personally thanks to Ophelias utility with a blast to get fire on Toni followed by crazy damage with a flamethrower and a bit of luck with the cards...

I would not rate Tonis crew in top tier, but they can compete with the top crews in my opinion.

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14 minutes ago, trikk said:

... don't find fun to play against and it turns out they are not willing to attack her...

Yes. That trigger is somewhat tricky. I can't use my generic beatsticks to deal with her. That's waaaay to strong. 

Really? I mean, there are some masters out there, who can really give you a hard time. But Ironsides? 

You can ignore her completely most of the time, if you position you crew right. It's not, that her crew is super fast, or so. 

You can still pressure her with range attacks, if you have to. You even can obey her crew to attack her in melee. 

But if you keep on throwing melee models in the bubble, you deserve to get your ass kicked. 

The whole crew is super prone to control effects and enemy movement tricks. I just don't get all the complaining about her Def Trigger. 

To be honest, I don't even use her in m&su. In my opinion the captain and even Amina are the way more flexible leaders. 

 

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We'd better change Lady J's attack too while we're at it. 8ss for Fitz's damage reduction vs 2ss for LLC for the same value of protection, and while J's isn't built in its min 3 and stoning for an auto-hitting min 3 is 100% worth it. Don't forget to remove Vengeance too, auto-hitting from infinite range if the attack does damage, or Black Blood blowing up your crew for hitting them.

There are a bunch of "counterattack" effects in the game. Are we going to nerf all of them?

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7 minutes ago, Winterfeld said:

Yes. That trigger is somewhat tricky. I can't use my generic beatsticks to deal with her. That's waaaay to strong. 

Really? I mean, there are some masters out there, who can really give you a hard time. But Ironsides? 

You can ignore her completely most of the time, if you position you crew right. It's not, that her crew is super fast, or so. 

You can still pressure her with range attacks, if you have to. You even can obey her crew to attack her in melee. 

But if you keep on throwing melee models in the bubble, you deserve to get your ass kicked. 

The whole crew is super prone to control effects and enemy movement tricks. I just don't get all the complaining about her Def Trigger. 

To be honest, I don't even use her in m&su. In my opinion the captain and even Amina are the way more flexible leaders. 

You kind of missed the rest of my post. It just doesn't make an interactive game if you're better off ignoring the enemy master. It doesn't mean the crew is OP. It just doesn't seem... fun? If Amina and Captain are more flexible Leaders then a) Ironsides is too one-dimensional or/and b) Amina and Captain have too much stuff on their cards"

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6 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd George said:

If you dont feel the Arcanist forum are playtesting to your standards, please feel free to test this crew yourself.

Absolutely! That is what results in relevant feedback balanced through the lens of different games, strategies, and experiences and actual attempts to mitigate the affects of a perceived issue in the game. This was the same type of argument we were having during the closed beta with Molly and Kirai when people wouldn't actually adapt their crew, play, etc to deal with them and were instead just convinced that they were the problem. 

6 hours ago, Tors said:

Nah man, i won't waste more of my time with that. Just reading between work and appointments has to do it for me. But i don't expect a balanced outcome any better then the end of m2e anyways.

So the loudest opponent is the self admitted refuser to play test...definitely reminds me of Molly in the closed beta. 

2 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Ironsides 2/3/5 st 6 with built in trigger for more damage 

Captain 3/4/6 st 6

Fitzsimmins 2/3/4 likely on  + flip 

Gunsmith 2/4/5 likely on a + flip 

Langston 3/4/5 ignoring resistance triggers 

That shapes up on the strong offensive side for m3e tbh. Some big moderate damages and + flips easy to get on a couple of them

and none of the models in the back of the formation will be contributing their attacks due to their short melee ranges and inability to attack through other models. All the dudes on the front of the formation, except maybe Toni, are susceptible to melee attacks which the Captain's ability doesn't reduce.

When you look at the defensive pieces mentioned earlier through the lens of your Kirai experience, Shikome eat Mice and Medibots and Ikiryo to the face causes all kind of problems for Fitzsimmons (actually not many models like irreducible damage).....and even if you lose them in return they (Shikome (or two) and Ikiryo (or two) didn't even cost you anything except a card....

Even if Toni is really strong and defensive she doesn't do much by herself....she has no ranged attack (Bring It can be mitigated easily) and can't charge more than once per turn. Most of the time she will kill one model per turn on turns 2-4 (sometimes less) especially in something like Kirai where you have expendable/renewable resources you don't really care and you beat her on points. 

1 hour ago, Tors said:

"All support pieces" are 2 models and a Upgrade. Non of those are trivial to remove, and you have just everything. Movement of Friends and enemys, almost all relevant stats with 6 and easy achievable positives. And we aren't even talking about grid or h2w from fitzsimmons.

Thats no assassinate bullshit, thats 'here are 3 model, good Game' bullshit. You didn't need half a brain to operate Ironsides and Cpt near by each other and simmons trolling a few inches behind. Thats such trivial placement game as any 12year old GW Fanboy can manage. 

Most Factions can't field such bonkers shit within 50stones! There is exactly Zero downside to this. You didn't even need to get half decent target numbers or think about activation order. Just field, stay close with 2 Models and within a big aura of a third to be untouchable from 95% of your opponents. Great game!

earlier you ere talking 4 models including the Automaton not 3....however, the concept doesn't change. It might make a tough nut to crack if you just approach it with brute force, poor target priorities, and in a manner that plays into the strengths of the other crew (the M&SU ball)../but once again that isn't what wins the game in Malifaux and the ball is not chasing down the all the thing sin the game that are scoring points as it rolls around the table getting jammed up with terrain and a well place model to stall every once in a while. 

Malifaux has always been a paper/rock/scissors game not just from a crew selection/list decision standpoint but from an employment strategy standpoint as well. Look for the vulnerabilities and figure out ways to exploit them whether that be melee, ranged, WP, shockwaves or blasts, or avoidance and good scheme selection. The Magic M&SU Ball can't do 3/4 of the strategies near as well as a crew with greater speed and maneuverability. 

 

 

I am not opposed to her trigger being "after damage" thematically it makes plenty of sense and if actual play testing shows it is too much then I think that would be a good change. However, as always I usually recommend PLAYING the game and actually trying to actively mitigate the perceived issue through approach, selection, etc to see if it is really as significant as it seemed at first glance. In this case I would argue it probably isn't. It is about tradeoffs and the crew trades speed, maneuverability, the ability to disperse and affect multiple zones of the board, and effectively she,e in order to tank in this manner. 

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1 minute ago, thewrathchilde said:

So the loudest opponent is the self admitted refuser to play test...definitely reminds me of Molly in the closed beta. 

I playtested enough during the last few beta tests and closed beta, but i am tired of arguing against wall of texts and a sea of people who can't seem to grasp basics of concepts of competetive gaming. I am no native speaker, so typing in english is rather bothering, double so if you argue with said people. 

So all i can do is shake my head and throw some snarky comments in. As said earlier i don't have any hope that my effords would change anything- so why bother? I just hope the result somehow playable. I lived with Nico before errata, i am sure i will live with m3e toni, too. Just a matter of time till the first errata hits.

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26 minutes ago, Tors said:

. I am no native speaker, so typing in english is rather bothering, double so if you argue with said people. 

Well thanks for the effort and input. I understand and tend to write war and peace myself so will try to be more succinct. 

26 minutes ago, Tors said:

So all i can do is shake my head and throw some snarky comments in. As said earlier i don't have any hope that my effords would change anything- so why bother?

Don’t give up on it. In the closed (I was in Blue) there were definitely times where we were at an impasse but most of that was when the two sides wouldn’t make the effort to actually consider the other POV and one side wouldn’t (in some cases) even bother actually testing the things that could mitigate the issue/problem.

That is all I encourage here. If time allows take the concept you think it too much (M&SU Ball) and dissect it. 

How would you attack it? What things (concept) would you do to take it apart and neutralize it? What tools (capabilities) would you need to execute the plan. How would the M&SU player try to counter. How do you mitigate that? What other approaches can neutralize it (avoidance, stall with chaff) and still enable you to win on points? How do you adapt this to different factions/crews?

That is the lens through which I try to determine if something is too much. If I can successfully go through the above and figure out ways to mitigate it then it isn’t an issue. If no other approach will work, no tools/counterpucks/ strategy will be effective and it can do all that and score points then maybe it’s too much. 

I don’t think that’s the case here.

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Can't imagine we speack about Toni...

Play it several time and the only things i can said is: Give her a real Adrenaline engine and a way to stop opponent auto escape...
Certainly not change his def trigger... ^^

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Ironsides is kind of odd in that she should really be survivable enough to rarely die, whilst actually encouraging people to attack her and not the others. Maybe give her some kind of downside, so if you hit her, one of her abilities turns off for the round, or something weirder like good shot my turn giving the attacked model a focus. Then you it's more upside for the attacking model whilst still not compromising Toni's survivability.

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For be more explicit last 3 time i play toni was very similar...
I chose her for a fight party (reckoning + a lot of fight shceme...) so globaly my adversary do the same and generaly have really tanky crew...
Because my adversary are generaly pertinent and good at play they alway's take push or lure models... and know how to play again'st Toni...
So my toni spend all the game to run away after almost nothing...
A toni turn look like:
Walk, taunt + coutner attack, fight one time (because generaly no more adrenaline) some time 2 fight...
My adversay evacuate the models... with lure or what else...
Toni run again... or double run... have no adrenaline... or 1 +1 from mouse (if he is not dead ;) ).

Like i wan't to say is you play toni in particular game... and your adversary play the same way of models (generaly tanky one...) and if he's good in his choice and he know toni... you certainly spend your game in an eternal walk/taunt... and don't do incredible things with your Toni :(
 

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ironsides is min damage 2 though isnt she? and kirais crew have alot of incoporeal plus vengeance meaning that most the time ironsides will do 1 damage and receive 1 back, and unlike ironsides defensive trigger, vengeance cannot be turned off by being stunned (or require card draw like some auras do for triggers)

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I personally think Ironsides (rather the M&SU) is right at the bottom of the pile of the Arcanist crews. Sure, they are resilient (unless you have enemy positioning shenanigans). But if they aren't scoring points, who cares? Having all of your models withing a 6" bubble is terrible in 3e for actually scoring points. She is basically a dead pick into 3 of the 4 strategies, and a good majority of the schemes are in the same spot

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From theory crafting, both iron sides and Colette have the same issue (maybe slightly less for Colette as she can help with scheams as well with her speed and presto charge)

both of them are rather underwhelming if your opponent ignores them.

 

Colette can at least bury on her 0 action to do her AOE distracted and stunned, however iron sides struggles to generate Adrenalin without getting hit and she doesn't have the challenge order of old. 

the best thing from the opponents point of view is ignore them and pick scheams that requires spreading out, especially vs iron sides as she promotes death balling which only realy helps with reckoning.

 

honestly iron sides is the weakest master in my opinion with the current strategies and even in reckoning, shoot down ironsides and amina and the crew lose grit and so drop off a lot

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27 minutes ago, cbtb11235813 said:

ISure, they are resilient (unless you have enemy positioning shenanigans). But if they aren't scoring points, who cares? Having all of your models withing a 6" bubble is terrible in 3e for actually scoring points. She is basically a dead pick into 3 of the 4 strategies, and a good majority of the schemes are in the same spot

There is some real merit in this. Aside from being the trundling ball of death, the crew doesn't do anything else. It can't spread out quickly to scheme run or score the strategy. The only reason I scored points vs Jamie was because I hired Colette as a second master.

 

Its difficult to know what to do with M&SU. I do think something has to change with Ironsides, particularly with the resist trigger and Pumped Up, but otherwise I think the crew is in an ok place in M3E terms. Perhaps more testing is needed to prove otherwise because at the moment its mostly theory.

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3 hours ago, cbtb11235813 said:

But if they aren't scoring points, who cares? Having all of your models withing a 6" bubble is terrible in 3e for actually scoring points. She is basically a dead pick into 3 of the 4 strategies, and a good majority of the schemes are in the same spot

Turf war: 

".....When a friendly model kills an enemy model.."

Plant Explosives:

"..If a model with one or more Explosives Tokens is killed.."

Reckoning

"..if more enemy models were killed.."

I'd say maybe one dead pick on four.

Anyway before changing her, just try to bring at same level the others crew.

Kirai (since her "vengeancedestroyertheworldsability" has been taken for example more than once) actually could be compete with her just in corrupted idols..and i'm not too sure about this either.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd George said:

There is some real merit in this. Aside from being the trundling ball of death, the crew doesn't do anything else. It can't spread out quickly to scheme run or score the strategy. 

Three other similar complaints across different crews this week. Deathball crews could use a bit of diversification within keyword.

I can only speak for Tormented (which is ungodly slow on top of things), but there is only so much you can do by having all of your tools in a 6 inch radius murdering everything. You end up having to hire out of keyword a lot. Lately, that's been 10-22 stones out of keyword for me.

I would expect deathball crews to do everything as well as Dreamer or Zipp, but there is a lot of redundancy in having all of your stuff beat everything to a pulp. It gets a lot worse when your opponent has the tools and the option of pretending that the deathball isn't there.

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7 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd George said:

There is some real merit in this. Aside from being the trundling ball of death, the crew doesn't do anything else. It can't spread out quickly to scheme run or score the strategy. The only reason I scored points vs Jamie was because I hired Colette as a second master.

Its difficult to know what to do with M&SU. I do think something has to change with Ironsides, particularly with the resist trigger and Pumped Up, but otherwise I think the crew is in an ok place in M3E terms. Perhaps more testing is needed to prove otherwise because at the moment its mostly theory.

Generally I respect your opinion a lot...but in this case you go from agreeing there is merit to the M&SU crew struggling to scheme and even state that aside from the "trundling ball of death, the crew doesn't do anything else" and then you immediately transition into Ironsides' resit trigger and Pumped Up have to change and otherwise the crew is in an ok place. Those statements are at complete odds with each other.....changing Ironsides triggers and Pumped Up doesn't change anything about the issue that you identify as the issue/deficiency with the crew. 

Aside from your post here- and you and Jamie both admit that he took the completely wrong approach to the game and played it terribly with poor target priorities, overall strategy, etc- and a tiny minority (mainly one respondent) of the feedback on the board none of these items are an issue with the crew. Sure I don't have a problem with changing her Defense trigger to "after damage" even though generally I would say take other approaches to neutralizing her or mitigating her affects instead...but if there is a problem with the crew why aren't you focused on that (can't scheme, no speed, terrible in a number of strategies) instead of changing something that is only an issue when your opponents takes entirely the wrong approach to dealing with it.

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3 hours ago, thewrathchilde said:

Generally I respect your opinion a lot...but in this case you go from agreeing there is merit to the M&SU crew struggling to scheme and even state that aside from the "trundling ball of death, the crew doesn't do anything else" and then you immediately transition into Ironsides' resit trigger and Pumped Up have to change and otherwise the crew is in an ok place. Those statements are at complete odds with each other.....changing Ironsides triggers and Pumped Up doesn't change anything about the issue that you identify as the issue/deficiency with the crew.

I do sometimes have the habit of speaking in exaggerations, but I stand by the point: Ironsides' crew works, but there a couple of things on her card which are too good.

I think it's mostly good to go because it does what it does very well. It's by no means an autopick crew due to its mobility for schemes, but there are definitely pools where you would hire it and do very well in. Aside from the M&SU models you can hire a couple of non-M&SU scheme runners and the crew will compete in many settings. Isn't this the point of M3E, select hiring where no one crew does everything? When I say the crew doesnt scheme run well I mean it isn't mobile enough to do them all - there are still a couple it excels at. The keyword doesn't necessarily need better mobile scheme runners than we currently have when there are decent others available for cheap out of keyword. The Union miner will do a job for many enemy related scheme marker jobbies too.

The crew is ok. A couple of minor tweaks to Ironsides and we are there, in my opinion.

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I disagree concerning the trigger. Triggers are there to mean something, and some of them are very good under the right circumstances... don't attack yasunori against df or mv when you have 6+ cards in hand, don't attack ironsides df with close attacks, plan for zoraida ending your activation and so on... if the opponent has a good trigger, work around it like everything else. Is it too good, I don't think so. is it very good, yes IF you play into it. Playing against for example misaki, who brought minako rei, that def trigger giving the upgrade and thereby insuring Ironsides would beat herself half to death on her, meant I didn't touch her with a ten foot pole... was that restrictive, yes, could I play around it, yes...

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Liking or not liking Tonis Def trigger is more about whether you like how you need certain models to counter your opponent or if you like having to change how you play a game depending on such a trigger.

It goes against the grain, but not killing a model is a way to win as well (personally I have a hard time with that, but I can accept it and try to adapt to it).

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Wow what the hell happened in here?

So to clarify my issues because you're right I can see that attacking ironsides in melee was incorrect and that is a thing that can happen across many keywords in m3e, if you play it wrong you're in for a world of hurt

My concern is how do you approach this? 

So assuming the advice of "just ignore ironsides" isn't good enough, I don't feel there should be any model in the game where you don't have a viable way to deal with it. It leads to negative experiences and bad interactions when people discover combos outside of keyword 

So as an opponent you just straight up can't attack her in melee, that sucks but it is what it is

So the option is to attack her at range? 

Well between + flips, healing and concealment this is really bad economy and very unlikely to yield results for most ranged threats (I'm sure there are things that could do better, Leveticus for example can get around this) 

I'm not sure I agree the crew is slow, not quick but certainly average speed

I also don't think it's a death ball. It can easily pair off to have the benefits of unionised but otherwise not really needing to stay clumped up especially once they've moved up the board 

There is another issue in this game in that Ironsides and Colette then present 2 models that are just a super negative experience to attack. So at that point how are you stopping your opponent scoring points when the 2 models doing most of the work have a warning label saying just avoid them 

Hopefully gaining grounds would prevent dual master at a competitive level as this only leads to bad interactions but assuming it doesn't that creates an issue. Ironsides can go around killing stuff and being untouchable for the strat and Colette can score you 4 scheme points with impunity. I guess when I reflect on it a big part of my issue is dual masters and specifically masters you would take in almost any game to just score you points or shut down enemy crew and are amazing without the keyword around them ( Colette,, Seamus, Nellie etc) 

I appreciate there are counters to the model. There are a few models that ignore resistance triggers which would help, stunned would be okay until it got removed, ranged models with innate + flips but I do feel there are currently too many layers to her DF set up. The + flips, concealment, fitzsimmons, healing and condition removal and the trigger. It just seems to be too much. Going to play more games though so we will see

 

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sorry, but negative play is being thrown around like there's no tomorrow... It's not negative play experience to have to counter something or play according to the obstructions your opponents put up... else every condition, piece of terrain, trigger, aura and so on that affects your opponent would be negative play, hell why play malifaux then? I really honestly don't understand how you got through 2ed, if that is your definition, and that is in no way meant as a: 2huh, learn to play" kinda way, but as honestly baffled how you could stand playing against any of that mombo-combo every master and their granny could field...

 

If it's the 2nd master stuff that bugs you, fair, just think that's a whole other discussion that really hasn't anything to do here, but a valid point. I like the options it opens as I think 3ed is already reeled in by so much, that a lot of the list-planing and building is lighter and a bit less fun than before, so 2nd master as an option opens that door a bit again, and I find the concept fun yet not broken, but if it is, increase the super solo masters cost... simple fix, as it won't affect anything when using it as single/primary, and if you use it as a second then you're charged even more, but the option is there, but thats a question of balance, not negative play...

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8 minutes ago, Caspergad said:

I really honestly don't understand how you got through 2ed

Haha to be fair I always struggled in 2nd edition 😂 

I'm not sure you're reading what I said correctly

As she is currently she can lead to a massively negative experience. I had one! Now that's not to say there aren't some ways around it which as I said there are and from a competitive point of view the challenge and diversity is great. Does that mean I think she is fine as she is? No not really, I still think there are too many layers to her DF set up and that the trigger should only be when she gets damaged.

 

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