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Flippin' Wyrd George

Ironsides resist trigger: is it so good it's pointless?

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@Flippin' Wyrd Jamie and I played this weekend and I used Ironsides vs his Kirai. I've had a few games with her so far but only this weekend did I really see the full effect she has when the opponent presses the right buttons. Below are the thoughts I submitted to the playtest report:

 

Quote

Ironsides herself is extremely good. She must have taken about 15 hits in melee and never dropped below 8 wounds.

The main problem is that her resist trigger is too good. If she is attacked with close, her built in defensive trigger means she will deal 2/3/5 damage to the attacker and gain an adrenaline token. This is regardless of opponent success. She will often have positive to defence with Unionised which means the opponent is unlikely to hit in the first place. Ironsides killed Ikiryo 3 times and 2 Goryo using her defensive trigger alone. On top of this she gained an Adrenaline token each time in addition to the Adrenaline she gained in her activation, so was consistently hitting Adrenaline 8-10. She could use Pumped Up and Soulstones to effectively negate all incoming damage whilst dealing it back at 2/3/5 each time, even if the opponent missed. Across 15-16 close attacks my opponent was unable to reduce her below 8 wounds. I think this trigger needs to change to "After this model suffers damage". I also think that Pumped Up should change to "May reduce this damage by a maximum of 2"

Jamie called the game at turn 4 as he was so frustrated with the combination of Ironsides and Colette's mechanics and struggling to deal with them. The only answer I could give him was to not attack either of them.

The obvious question is why is the opponent hitting Ironsides with close attacks in the first place? Jamie conceded he would not have done this so much in the future, but we both feel the effects of the trigger are too much. Jamie would never hit Ironsides with close again - this means the trigger is functionally useless as he feels the risk/reward for attacking or taking damage is too high.

Jamie was also concerned he did not have easy access to ranged damage with Kirai

 

I really think this trigger is too good. In all my other games my opponents have read the trigger and just blown a raspberry at the thought of hitting her with close. They aren't going to take the risk - and I agree with them. Why would you ever hit her?

As the Arcanist player, I want my opponent to hit Ironsides with close as regularly as possible, but a savvy opponent will simply ignore her with their close attacks. I suppose we can use Bring It! but I'd like to see the effects of the resist trigger lowered to encourage more close attacks against Ironsides. I don't think the existence of Bring It! on her card is enough to justify the current ridiculous trigger.

 

What do you guys think? Have your opponents been hitting her in close?

 

 

 

Edit: Before we mention stunned, we had both considered it - but stunned does not deal with the issue that when the trigger is available, its not used unless she is hit.

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There are ranged damage options in Kirai and Ressers. Nowhere near enough to get through the + flips and other benefits this crew has though. Probably the hardest faction to take on Toni with. The fact it goes off when she isn't hit added to the + flips she gets makes it pretty insane and once she's got some adrenaline stacked up she's basically unkillable 

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37 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

There are ranged damage options in Kirai and Ressers. Nowhere near enough to get through the + flips and other benefits this crew has though. Probably the hardest faction to take on Toni with. The fact it goes off when she isn't hit added to the + flips she gets makes it pretty insane and once she's got some adrenaline stacked up she's basically unkillable 

I had an easy time taking toni on with a jack daw crew and 10 stones to spam execute....but that was the only way I could have won in melee with ressers against her. Extreame example but possible.

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Definitely not so good it's pointless to attack her.  I could see an argument for changing it to only if she fails the Df duel, but right now it's really her only Adrenaline generation.  Without it, she's going to truly struggle to do much of anything since a good chunk of her card relies on their use (see my breakdown of Adrenaline gain/use in my last game with her here).

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I'm not convinced she's "extremely good", but I wouldn't mind making enemies attack her more. Maybe bring back her old challenge? Also, I don't understand how Stunned doesn't shut it down completely. What do you mean it is only used when she is hit?

If her adrenaline had another more solid source I could see her Df trigger being toned down and having her be more of a straightforward damage master.

Would Yan Lo not be a solid hire to deal with her? In the mid game (turn 3+) he would shred her with stat 7, min 3 targeting Wp, and his Hazardous aura would make her really hate getting close.

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@Flippin' Wyrd George I think you answered in your own post. You said 

Quote

The obvious question is why is the opponent hitting Ironsides with close attacks in the first place? Jamie conceded he would not have done this so much in the future, but we both feel the effects of the trigger are too much. Jamie would never hit Ironsides with close again - this means the trigger is functionally useless as he feels the risk/reward for attacking or taking damage is too high.

This is very similar to the discussion of Colette or some of the other really defensive models. Don't attack Ironsides in MI. Attack her with ranged attacks, blast on her, catch her in Shockwaves, and only go in on her in melee after you have deprived her from focus or early before she gets it with things with high damage. 

She no longer has  Hard to Kill or Armor; she no longer has easy ways of getting armor. I haven't seen any reports of her crew being extremely good, over the top, or running the table consistently. If you focus on the other more killable things or at least push them away then you can also shut down or reduce the impact of Unionized. Even if she is still running around she can't be everywhere at once, doesn't have the movement tricks that were available to Arcanists in M2E, and she can't shut down most of your schemes.

I think she is really survivable and penalizes opponents for attacking her in melee but think she is by no means unkillable, too powerful, etc. I think any of the high damage/high volume shooting/blasting crews would chew through her pretty elite crew without too much difficulty. 

 

The other big thing is going after her with WP duels. Sure she is WP 6 but doesn’t get any resistance triggers against WP fuels or other tests that target other characteristics.

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2 hours ago, retnab said:

Definitely not so good it's pointless to attack her.  I could see an argument for changing it to only if she fails the Df duel, but right now it's really her only Adrenaline generation.  Without it, she's going to truly struggle to do much of anything since a good chunk of her card relies on their use (see my breakdown of Adrenaline gain/use in my last game with her here).

So in agreement with your assessment. My game with her I think she killed one model all game and second wind let her be a scheme runner a couple of turns more effectively.

 

plus you have to look at her in the context of her crew as a whole. 

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I think it should be played more before drawing a hard conclusion.  Please let the dialogue continue... 

Here are some thoughts to consider:

1) is she balanced or completely countered by a range crew? Or a heavy WP attack crew?  Answers may dictate she is not in need of a nerf just that is one with a hard counter. 

2) If your opponent never melee attacks Toni is that so bad?  Does this allow for Toni to perform some other critical actions? Like kill a model? Or scheme run? 

Jamie trying to bash her on the head seems like my experience against Nellie. I thought was so bustedly OP. The next I played her I stopped attacking her Df triggers.  Further I tried to mitigate Press Releae by playing those models more aggressively.  My opponent basically was forced to shoot at a model he knew was destined to die becasusr the model that was press released was too much a threat.  

All in all I’m just saying maybe testing is needed.  

 

 

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Yeah it's pretty easy to circumvent her. Just shoot her, after all, she is just def5+ with concealment and will reduce dmg by 1-3 before SS use. But thats assuming the Captain is nearby, he should go down quickly with def6+, bis 10life, reducing by one and using soulstones. Of course he needs a little helping Hand from fitzsimmons, but thats not hard to do. 

Or attack her wp. 6+ shouldn't be so hard to beat.

 

I am not sure what the arcanist community is smoking all day long. Or maybe there isn't even one half decent player here, but i can't get it in my mind why you wouldn't play Tony with medical training, captain, fitzsimmons and medical automaton.

You get an absolutly unkillable Master (14hp def5+ wp5+, reduce 2 against everything before Captains help or ss or Adrenalin).  And if you are in trouble you have the best healer Ingame nearby 

You have Board control with bring it and cyclone. One is fucking ca7 vs wp, the other is  basically mv14 duel.

Your offence is coverd with intimidation, again a very High TN for the Opponent (between this and cyclone there is also Hand destruction dir your opponent) and this nets Ironsides her second adrenalin she needs to neuter this pesky condition game. Tony and Cap just wear everything down

 

And the best: about 20 Stones left.  Take 2 Sceme models, bank the rest for Cache. You even have 7 activations.

 

Thats totally bonkers. I can give this Crew to a chimpanze and watch him score Top half of most Tournaments...

Easily the one of most (maybe the most) Borken crews remaining. 

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Ok I think I may have given some people the wrong end of the stick.

 

The issue is that her resist trigger is so good that people are not attacking her in close at all.  

It needs to be toned down to encourage more close attacks against her because at the moment, past the opponent's first couple of games vs her, it feels like dead mechanic. 

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1 hour ago, Tors said:

Yeah it's pretty easy to circumvent her. Just shoot her, after all, she is just def5+ with concealment and will reduce dmg by 1-3 before SS use. But thats assuming the Captain is nearby, he should go down quickly with def6+, bis 10life, reducing by one and using soulstones. Of course he needs a little helping Hand from fitzsimmons, but thats not hard to do. 

Or attack her wp. 6+ shouldn't be so hard to beat.

 

I am not sure what the arcanist community is smoking all day long. Or maybe there isn't even one half decent player here, but i can't get it in my mind why you wouldn't play Tony with medical training, captain, fitzsimmons and medical automaton.

You get an absolutly unkillable Master (14hp def5+ wp5+, reduce 2 against everything before Captains help or ss or Adrenalin).  And if you are in trouble you have the best healer Ingame nearby 

You have Board control with bring it and cyclone. One is fucking ca7 vs wp, the other is  basically mv14 duel.

Your offence is coverd with intimidation, again a very High TN for the Opponent (between this and cyclone there is also Hand destruction dir your opponent) and this nets Ironsides her second adrenalin she needs to neuter this pesky condition game. Tony and Cap just wear everything down

 

And the best: about 20 Stones left.  Take 2 Sceme models, bank the rest for Cache. You even have 7 activations.

 

Thats totally bonkers. I can give this Crew to a chimpanze and watch him score Top half of most Tournaments...

Easily the one of most (maybe the most) Borken crews remaining. 

If you dont feel the Arcanist forum are playtesting to your standards, please feel free to test this crew yourself.

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Nah man, i won't waste more of my time with that. Just reading between work and appointments has to do it for me. But i don't expect a balanced outcome any better then the end of m2e anyways.

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Probably @Tors wrote impulsively, but for what is worth, also in our game-group we feel that Ironside is actually the best arcanist master, followed closely by Kaeris.

With this i just want to mean that probably, we could try to improve other masters to same level of tony, or kaeris maybe..

After all, what are beta testing for..

02. Cents

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tors said:

Yeah it's pretty easy to circumvent her. Just shoot her, after all, she is just def5+ with concealment and will reduce dmg by 1-3 before SS use. But thats assuming the Captain is nearby, he should go down quickly with def6+, bis 10life, reducing by one and using soulstones. Of course he needs a little helping Hand from fitzsimmons, but thats not hard to do. 

Or attack her wp. 6+ shouldn't be so hard to beat.

 

I am not sure what the arcanist community is smoking all day long. Or maybe there isn't even one half decent player here, but i can't get it in my mind why you wouldn't play Tony with medical training, captain, fitzsimmons and medical automaton.

You get an absolutly unkillable Master (14hp def5+ wp5+, reduce 2 against everything before Captains help or ss or Adrenalin).  And if you are in trouble you have the best healer Ingame nearby 

You have Board control with bring it and cyclone. One is fucking ca7 vs wp, the other is  basically mv14 duel.

Your offence is coverd with intimidation, again a very High TN for the Opponent (between this and cyclone there is also Hand destruction dir your opponent) and this nets Ironsides her second adrenalin she needs to neuter this pesky condition game. Tony and Cap just wear everything down

 

And the best: about 20 Stones left.  Take 2 Sceme models, bank the rest for Cache. You even have 7 activations.

 

Thats totally bonkers. I can give this Crew to a chimpanze and watch him score Top half of most Tournaments...

Easily the one of most (maybe the most) Borken crews remaining. 

This is very true if a little abrupt haha

The crew is a super hard nut to crack with healing, damage reduction and + flips. Toni is basically untouchable from a resser perspective, to bring enough ranged damage to take her out past the pos flips and healing just isn't going to happen and the fact her trigger goes off regardless of success is nuts. 

And the captain throwing out concealing terrain means if you are attacking at range you need + flips to get a straight to hit and then the ironsides player will be on a + anyway. Take a decent amount of stones and you just aren't touching them

3 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd George said:

If you dont feel the Arcanist forum are playtesting to your standards, please feel free to test this crew yourself.

Shall we use the Howard Langston thread as an example 😋😋 or Colette threads?

I think there seems to be a bit of an underestimation as to how powerful this crew is. Saying just don't attack ironsides in melee shouldn't really have to be the answer when she has an amazing set up to defend against other attacks as well. Which wouldn't be so bad if she did not much else but she is a brawler and her crew has some huge threats in it

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If your Opponent is a bit cagey with Ironsides and cap placing, you didn't need to bother shooting at all. Its -3 dmg reduction... 

Pandoras defensive abilitys weren't half as good and were to much

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We probably need a new M&SU thread to discuss the crew power if we think it's an issue. Ive found the crew does very little offensively. It is tanky as hell and extremely difficult to shift, but doesnt hasnt done much else offensively or scheme wise for me in my games.

 

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50 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd George said:

We probably need a new M&SU thread to discuss the crew power if we think it's an issue. Ive found the crew does very little offensively. It is tanky as hell and extremely difficult to shift, but doesnt hasnt done much else offensively or scheme wise for me in my games.

 

Yeah, I haven't really playtested with Ironsides, but I don't really see the issue with her being unkillable when she has all her support pieces in play. I mean if you're playing against Ironsides and you took Assasinate then really it's your own fault. The issue is if she's still really competent at killing and scheming whilst being impossible to shift.

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47 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd George said:

We probably need a new M&SU thread to discuss the crew power if we think it's an issue. Ive found the crew does very little offensively. It is tanky as hell and extremely difficult to shift, but doesnt hasnt done much else offensively or scheme wise for me in my games.

 

Is this in relation to m2e or m3e because for a keyword that has so much going for it defensively you have 

Ironsides 2/3/5 st 6 with built in trigger for more damage 

Captain 3/4/6 st 6

Fitzsimmins 2/3/4 likely on  + flip 

Gunsmith 2/4/5 likely on a + flip 

Langston 3/4/5 ignoring resistance triggers 

That shapes up on the strong offensive side for m3e tbh. Some big moderate damages and + flips easy to get on a couple of them

 

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53 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Is this in relation to m2e or m3e because for a keyword that has so much going for it defensively you have 

Ironsides 2/3/5 st 6 with built in trigger for more damage 

Captain 3/4/6 st 6

Fitzsimmins 2/3/4 likely on  + flip 

Gunsmith 2/4/5 likely on a + flip 

Langston 3/4/5 ignoring resistance triggers 

That shapes up on the strong offensive side for m3e tbh. Some big moderate damages and + flips easy to get on a couple of them

 

Well we need to get our arses out of the pub and into the testing lab more often 😂

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45 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Is this in relation to m2e or m3e because for a keyword that has so much going for it defensively you have 

Ironsides 2/3/5 st 6 with built in trigger for more damage 

Captain 3/4/6 st 6

Fitzsimmins 2/3/4 likely on  + flip 

Gunsmith 2/4/5 likely on a + flip 

Langston 3/4/5 ignoring resistance triggers 

That shapes up on the strong offensive side for m3e tbh. Some big moderate damages and + flips easy to get on a couple of them

 

Very true but if you have Howard and 2 x Gunsmiths then that is over half your points and that is before you bring  Fitzsimmons, the Captain, the Automaton or a cache as was mentioned above.... that is also without Amina who a number of players (myself included) really like in their crews to enable us to split forces and not just play the boring magic ball of destruction (sarcasm). That’s actually 53 SS with no Cache. 

Dropping Amina is the easy answer which gets you down to 44 giving you a good sized cache or 46 if you take an upgrade somewhere..... of course at that point you are stuck in the magic ball if you want all the defense that is described above and either you can barely move (crawl) to keep things in the bubble or things get picked off individually as the move out of the bubble before the rest of the pieces move up.

Alternately your opponent ignores the ball which can only be one place at a time and can shut down Plant Explosives (bombs spread at least 6” apart), Corrupted Idols (come in everywhere), or Turf War (5 x markers spread way out). There are a lot of schemes that a ball list won’t do well to score or stop either..... Outflank, Breakthrough, Power Ritual, and several others as well. 

Fortunately this isn’t old Hardcore Warmachine where the only thing that won was killing their war caster. Strategies matter, schemes matter, terrain is a thing, pulling/pushing the ball apart with things like Cojo’s Rude Sign Language and then eating the key pieces individually. Irreducible damage is a thing as well.... may still be a challenge against Ironsides herself but as you bust up the bubble those other pieces start dying or you just entertain them long enough to win on points..... which is kinda a thing and usually more important than killing in this game. 

Even Ressers I think you will find that the magical death ball has trouble chasing Necropunks or Crooligans to 3 different corners of the board behind terrain where they are scoring the strategy and schemes while your crawl across the board in formation. 

Sure maybe Ironsides defense trigger should be after damage (which would make sense) or after success if they want to go that way.... but the whole....chicken little approach to some things on this board of doom and gloom is way too much of an overreaction without analyzing how to mitigate or deal with something. 

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38 minutes ago, Primate said:

Yeah, I haven't really playtested with Ironsides, but I don't really see the issue with her being unkillable when she has all her support pieces in play. I mean if you're playing against Ironsides and you took Assasinate then really it's your own fault. The issue is if she's still really competent at killing and scheming whilst being impossible to shift.

"All support pieces" are 2 models and a Upgrade. Non of those are trivial to remove, and you have just everything. Movement of Friends and enemys, almost all relevant stats with 6 and easy achievable positives. And we aren't even talking about grid or h2w from fitzsimmons.

Thats no assassinate bullshit, thats 'here are 3 model, good Game' bullshit. You didn't need half a brain to operate Ironsides and Cpt near by each other and simmons trolling a few inches behind. Thats such trivial placement game as any 12year old GW Fanboy can manage. 

Most Factions can't field such bonkers shit within 50stones! There is exactly Zero downside to this. You didn't even need to get half decent target numbers or think about activation order. Just field, stay close with 2 Models and within a big aura of a third to be untouchable from 95% of your opponents. Great game!

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I personally think you can't have "after resolving" triggers that have such a big impact. It doesn't even make sense for Toni. It's called "Good Shot, My Turn" which suggests she got hit. 

I think the same issue would apply to Colette. Change their triggers to "after failing". This way the impacts for failing to hit aren't "I lost an action and got damaged/distracted" but "I damaged you, you damaged me".

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53 minutes ago, Tors said:

"All support pieces" are 2 models and a Upgrade. Non of those are trivial to remove, and you have just everything. Movement of Friends and enemys, almost all relevant stats with 6 and easy achievable positives. And we aren't even talking about grid or h2w from fitzsimmons.

Thats no assassinate bullshit, thats 'here are 3 model, good Game' bullshit. You didn't need half a brain to operate Ironsides and Cpt near by each other and simmons trolling a few inches behind. Thats such trivial placement game as any 12year old GW Fanboy can manage. 

Most Factions can't field such bonkers shit within 50stones! There is exactly Zero downside to this. You didn't even need to get half decent target numbers or think about activation order. Just field, stay close with 2 Models and within a big aura of a third to be untouchable from 95% of your opponents. Great game!

this is malifaux... you don't win games that way... so the plays that even a 12 year old GW fanboy can manage aren't really much use if you're just straight up outplayed... besides, mind the salt leave some for the icy roads ;)

played ironsides yesterday, and while she is strong against close attacks against def, she is another matter when it comes to Wp, Mv and Sz duels or just any ranged... yes, the extra reduction from fitzsimmons is good, but he is very much a support piece at 8 ss, and if he is locked babysitting ironsides, that's easily alot of your crew bubling up quickly. Opponent scored assassinate yesterday (only first point, but still), so with the right attacks it's definitly possible... matter of knowing the opponent's theme/master and building your crew appropriately to that and the strat/scheme.... unlike the GW fanboy...

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