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bedjy

Improving Reckoning VP scoring

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I really enjoy part of the Reckoning Strategy, it is a very tactical Strat to play with. Killing or not killing a model is a though choice to do. But I have to say it is very hard to score VP in this and most of the game don't score much. I've never heard of a game where someone scored 4, also, I've scored 3 points once at the beggining of the Close Beta. Since then, never more than 2. 1 VP was also quite common

All the games I've played lately in this Strat has seen 2 very Elite crews (5-7 non-insignificant models) filled by expensive models, upgrades and soulstones. They were struggling to kill 2 model in a single turn.

I think there is something to do to make scoring more common and the games more dynamic. Would it be possible to have something like :

  • Master still count as 3 models. (edited)
  • 8+ (or 9+ or 10+)Ss models count as 2 models OR henchmen count as 2 models.
  • Any model with an upgrade count as +1 model.

It would be easier to score points. A lot more interactive, and would open slots for high damages glass cannon crews or at least less Elite ones

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  • Agree 2

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Just now, Adran said:

Masters (and leaders) do count as 3 models when killed.

 

Sure I know. I've just written it again not to remove it. I'll clarify the topic

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1 minute ago, Adran said:

Masters (and leaders) do count as 3 models when killed.

 

Yeah, but I think the point is (or I think it should be) that we need a bit more than that as well.

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Has anyone ever scored 4 ? Or heard of a story of someone who scored 4, even while emptying opponent's board ? Cause If I'm getting this right we need :

  • Turn 2 : 1 model
  • Turn 3 : 2 models
  • Turn 4 : 3 models or 1 master
  • Turn 5 : 4 models or 1 master +1 model.

So that's a total of :

  • 4 models + 2 masters.
  • 7 models + 1 master. 

And everything has to be killed in the proper turn. So that means that the case I'm initialy talking about, an Elite crew with 5-7 significant models, including 1 master can gives a grand maximum of 3VP.

Quite often it's a better idea to not consider the strat (but 1 point, or 2 if there is assassinate), and just try to score Scheme VP.

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18 minutes ago, bedjy said:

Has anyone ever scored 4

Yep. I think I've only scored less than 3 from the current version of reckoning once.
 

19 minutes ago, bedjy said:

So that means that the case I'm initialy talking about, an Elite crew with 5-7 significant models, including 1 master can gives a grand maximum of 3VP.

If you've scored the 3rd point by turn 4 then they shouldn't have enough models left to be there at the end of turn 5 which will get you your last point.
Additionally there's no reason to not kill as much as you can, unless there's no way they won't die the next turn, on turns 2 and 3, since your opponent having no models means you get a point.

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10 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Yep. I think I've only scored less than 3 from the current version of reckoning once.
 

If you've scored the 3rd point by turn 4 then they shouldn't have enough models left to be there at the end of turn 5 which will get you your last point.
Additionally there's no reason to not kill as much as you can, unless there's no way they won't die the next turn, on turns 2 and 3, since your opponent having no models means you get a point.

and were those games interesting enough ? Or just a grand melee of armored models with a huge bunch of soulstones ?

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27 minutes ago, newsun said:

What if it was 1,2,2,3 for number of models killed? This would make it more achievable while still not easy to get the fourth point.

That still doesnt fix the problem tho. You need there to be at least 8 enemy models for you to kill. If the enemy brings a master and 5 henchmen, you just cant score full points

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1 minute ago, Mycellanious said:

That still doesnt fix the problem tho. You need there to be at least 8 enemy models for you to kill. If the enemy brings a master and 5 henchmen, you just cant score full points

You can score full points.

First kill a model, then kill two, then two, then finally the master (worth two-three ideally). In your example you can get it exactly by tabling them which also works if you do it early enough regardless of the number brought.

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14 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

That still doesnt fix the problem tho. You need there to be at least 8 enemy models for you to kill. If the enemy brings a master and 5 henchmen, you just cant score full points

I think you're misreading the strategy rules.

If you kill everyone (everyone not ignored by strategies and schemes), that goes straight to the part where it doesn't matter how many models you killed that turn:

Quote

At the end of each Turn, a Crew gains 1 VP if more enemy models were killed that Turn than it has scored VP for this Strategy, or if there are no more enemy models in play.

There's the separate argument about whether a master and five henchmen is inappropriately more difficult compared to a master and five minions/enforcers.  But

  • Turn 1 kill a model
  • Turn 2 kill two models
  • Turn 3 kill three models (or the master)
  • Turn 4 kill everyone left over (two models, if you killed the master), you get the point for no one being left in play
  • Turn 5 you get the point for no one being left in play

 

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16 hours ago, bedjy said:

 Or just a grand melee of armored models with a huge bunch of soulstones ?

It'd be pretty hard for that to happen considering I play Neverborn with a dash of 10T.

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8 hours ago, solkan said:

 

  • Turn 1 kill a model
  • Turn 2 kill two models
  • Turn 3 kill three models (or the master)
  • Turn 4 kill everyone left over (two models, if you killed the master), you get the point for no one being left in play
  • Turn 5 you get the point for no one being left in play

 

Quote from rules page: 43, 2nd sentence "Remember, no Victory Points can be scored on the first Turn"

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44 minutes ago, Gesuma said:

Quote from rules page: 43, 2nd sentence "Remember, no Victory Points can be scored on the first Turn"

Unless you also think solkan thinks that you can score 5 points for the strategy, he's just detailing a method to kill 6 models and still get full points.

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Pfff.  I can't even keep straight when the game ends without checking at this point.  🤕

I blame the discussion in the other thread about 0-10 blowouts.  :P

But the point is that if they don't have enough significant models for you to kill each turn, that's great because it means you get done early.

 

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2 hours ago, solkan said:

Pfff.  I can't even keep straight when the game ends without checking at this point.  🤕

I blame the discussion in the other thread about 0-10 blowouts.  :P

But the point is that if they don't have enough significant models for you to kill each turn, that's great because it means you get done early.

 

or they just make one survive, (say a master), difficult to catch/kill, with a lot of soulstones and some placement shenanigans, like a mechanical rider with Soulstone Cache, a Colette, a McCabe etc... and you'll end up with a max of 2 points.

Well, but the whole point of this discussion is not to argue if it is possible (yes, in a fighting strat, letting your opponent with 0 models suprisingly makes you win). But is it currently interesting ? I mean, isn't it too hard to score ?

Another point is the number of schemes that require you to keep enemy models alive : 

  • deliver a message
  • take prisonner
  • hold up their forces
  • detonate charges

 

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100% my plan for Reckoning is to buy a 3ss significant Steam Arachnid and plop it down in the safest spot as far away from the enemy is as possible specifically just to try and deny the "enemy tabled" option from coming up.

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I would really like to put a tax on upgrades as they are making some models super tanky. I think a Teddy with butterfly jump or a mech rider with soulstone cache are almost impossible to kill.
The main purpose of my request was to limit Elite crews (with 4 10SS model + upgrades and soulstones), I think upgrades are part of it.

Maybe that could be done like this :

  • any model >= 8 Ss count as 2.

OR

  • Henchmen count as 2 and models with an upgrade count as +1

 

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53 minutes ago, bedjy said:

 

I would really like to put a tax on upgrades as they are making some models super tanky. I think a Teddy with butterfly jump or a mech rider with soulstone cache are almost impossible to kill.

Perhaps you should stop and reconsider.

If you see a combination of models and upgrades that are overpowered what is the correct solution to the issue?

  • Changing the upgrade so that it's no longer overpowered
  • Changing the upgrade so that it can no longer be given to the model that it makes overpowered
  • Changing the scoring of a strategy to punish players for using the combination of model and upgrade that is overpowered

 

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34 minutes ago, solkan said:

Perhaps you should stop and reconsider.

If you see a combination of models and upgrades that are overpowered what is the correct solution to the issue?

  • Changing the upgrade so that it's no longer overpowered
  • Changing the upgrade so that it can no longer be given to the model that it makes overpowered
  • Changing the scoring of a strategy to punish players for using the combination of model and upgrade that is overpowered

 

If it's neverborn then it's all three :ph34r:

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So there I come back to my proposal, since I don't want reckoning to be just a confrontation of expensive struggling to kill each other.

  • Master still count as 3 models. 
  • 8+ Ss models count as 2 models (this includes non-special upgrade cost)
  • Agree 1

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