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HipsterWhale

Max starting soulstones

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I have played roughly 10 beta games so far and really think that the amount if soulstones a crew can bring is slowing the game down. 

 

Many times I am playing against crews with between 5-10 stones. This allows henchmen to live much longer and masters to live a very very long time. Almost unkillable. 

 

I think reducing the amount of stones you can bring to 5 would allow for quicker games and make players choose when to actually use stones as opposed to always using them. 

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I can't imagine bringing that many soulstones is actually slowing the game down. If they are bringing that many stones, they are definitely down a model or 3. I'm sure those activations that aren't happening are removing more time from the game than the master/henchman staying alive is adding 

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2 hours ago, cbtb11235813 said:

I can't imagine bringing that many soulstones is actually slowing the game down. If they are bringing that many stones, they are definitely down a model or 3. I'm sure those activations that aren't happening are removing more time from the game than the master/henchman staying alive is adding 

Models die so much quicker than stones in my experience. 

Losing a 4ss scheme runner happens in 2 ap of a decent model in 1 turn while you will not spend 4 stones in 1 turns for the same threat coming at you. 

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I'm all in favor of more Cache. Might be just a Neverborn thing but most Masters tend to be relying a lot on triggers. In order to get the maximum performance out of those models you will need to use stones.

Also, I don't think that the game is slowed down considerably by more stones. Yes, models live longer but since you can only spend one stone now a decent effort to bring down a Henchman or Master will still result in the model dying; maybe a couple of activations later than w/o stones but you were going to have those activations anyway.

Slow games are usually more due to inexperience with the models (which should be quite common in a beta) or not really having a plan.

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5 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Models die so much quicker than stones in my experience. 

Losing a 4ss scheme runner happens in 2 ap of a decent model in 1 turn while you will not spend 4 stones in 1 turns for the same threat coming at you. 

Whilst I 'll agree using ss as protection does save more wounds that just hiring a model would do, you are not including the time spent on any actions that model creates during the game.

You probably need to have spent at least 2 stones to have ended in the same place.

 

Personally I've not seen a huge difference in game time between elite crews and swarm crews, if anything I've have said the extra activations take longer. Plus 3-5 ss seem to just be sp[ent on card draw, rather than health

 

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I had an enemy master at 7 out of 10 health who was putting negative flips and then mitigating damage and didn't take a single wound for 3 turns. 

 

I just think that they are better off as real decisions vs something you just always use to counter an opponents whole action. 

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22 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

I had an enemy master at 7 out of 10 health who was putting negative flips and then mitigating damage and didn't take a single wound for 3 turns. 

 

I just think that they are better off as real decisions vs something you just always use to counter an opponents whole action. 

So your opponent used 2 stones per attack, i.e. at the max of 10 stones he was able to block 5 attacks. If you managed only 5 attacks on the enemy master in the attempt to actually kill it then I'd probably be questioning your strategy :)

If you weren't trying to kill the enemy master then you should be pretty happy that he burned all his stones to prevent something you didn't even want to achieve.

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I'm not sure it makes a huge difference to play speed even though I think there might be some effect - you would average 2 damage saved from a ss vs your crew typically costs 1 wound per ss.

I guess the question is if four extra ss buys a pretty ordinary easy to kill minion or gives your most important models another 8 wounds on average, is that the right balance?

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7 minutes ago, Maladroit said:

I'm not sure it makes a huge difference to play speed even though I think there might be some effect - you would average 2 damage saved from a ss vs your crew typically costs 1 wound per ss.

I guess the question is if four extra ss buys a pretty ordinary easy to kill minion or gives your most important models another 8 wounds on average, is that the right balance?

Four extra stones buys two useful upgrades. Or an effigy. 

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We'll keep in mind that you miss some portion of the time or don't always have a window of opportunity to attack a model. 

 

5 stones over one turn might be damning but you have the ability to use them contextually. Giving a negative flip when they're straight vs not needing to use it if they're already negative. 

 

Also keep in mind models still have defensive abilities and this is a layer on top of a model

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5 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

Also keep in mind models still have defensive abilities and this is a layer on top of a model

You're absolutely right. Not to mention the passive effect of a full cache of stones that have the potential to be used.

Still, 3 stones (7 vs. 10) won't make a whole world of a difference in that regard. SS are a finite resource that provides a slight tip on the scale and can sometimes make all the difference - emphasis on sometimes. Most of the time, those 3 stones are spent on cards anyway.

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Right when you look at 7 vs 10 it's a bounty of choice regardless. I think stones should probably be in a place where cycling cards vs damage mitigation vs suits should all pressure one another. 

 

And currently the bounty of stones people can bring makes it so you just get it all

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I would argue that if I see my opponent bringing a Master, especially a typically hardy, high Wd count one (looking at you Ressers), who is also packing a full 10SS, I'm probably going to shift my tactics to work around the Master, rather than attempting to eliminate it. Sometimes you simply run into a situation where killing a model is not worth the resources to achieve. I mentioned in another thread that in a game vs. Pandora I decided early on that I wasn't going to attempt to kill her simply because Terrifying 13 is a resource intensive nut to crack without Ruthless. I'd rather spend my AP elsewhere where it will efficiently earn me VP.

Decreasing the SS cache cap isn't going to speed up the game to any significant degree, because you'll still find yourself in situations like this even at a 7SS cap. Instead try not to put yourself in a situation wherein your opponent gets the opportunity to spend all those SS they're stockpiling. Focus on other means of earning VP apart from killing the Master (or Henchmen for that matter) - better use of AP at that point.

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I only play more than 5SS when I need to buy triggers for my master to work. Such as Asami. With a limit of 5SS (why even less than in m2e???) I wouldn't play Asami currently, because I have no other way to get those mask triggers I need. In m2e I could get them through borrowed time, but I think the new situation is fine/better.

Also I do not agree to the argument that more stones slow down games.

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3 hours ago, nomadicXnightmare said:

Focus on other means of earning VP apart from killing the Master (or Henchmen for that matter) - better use of AP at that point.

I want to be clear I focused on the objectives more readily (and I won) but with souls and his defensive abilities I couldn't crack through lynch

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33 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

I want to be clear I focused on the objectives more readily (and I won) but with souls and his defensive abilities I couldn't crack through lynch

Sounds like this is more about a perceived issue with Lynch's rules rather than a matter of soulstones slowing the game down.

Personally I don't find Lynch too tanky. I play against him pretty regularly and, for the most part, as long as you can target him without having any Brilliance tokens he folds pretty easily (pun intended). Once the tokens start stacking, sure, it gets more difficult to land a blow. Apart from this, soulstone use is basically his only other defensive mechanic. He's got a very modest Df and Wp of 5 and no defensive triggers. Rig The Deck I suppose could be used creatively to help mitigate incoming attacks, but that's true for the whole crew, not just Lynch.

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SS are needed to smooth the probabiltiy and swinginess of the game. 

 

Besides - Having more models on the board would slow down the game way more than an occasional SS use.  That’s two extra Actions and a bonus every turn needless to say the expentional decision trees related  vector / move / order of operations etc calculations. 

SS’s do not slow down the game. 

 

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I just really like that it's an option. I can bring myself another model or upgrade or I can increase the effectiveness and survivability of my most important models. I think unfamiliarity with models and rules is what is slowing the game down and that we will start to see a return to normal in a while.

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The game is just so different. In M2e there was pretty much a way you "had to play" that was mapped out before you even put the crew on the table. Summoners had their engines, other crews aligned their pushes, Yan Lo had his chi farm, others had 4-5 useless models with 1 second activations to set-up an alpha strike.

In the end you saved 2-3 cards for whatever you were setting up for that turn, and the rest was auto-pilot.

Right now, in M3e, pretty much every model has a close and ranged attack, and you have more incentive to use those actions in a meaningful way. Then consider the addition of shockwaves, Terrifying being once per attack, several sources of damage mitigation, the widespread sources of -flips, and the timing on conditions being idiosyncratic, and the lengthening of the game is inevitable.

I wouldn't mind more models that have quick, support activations without opposed duels, but I am not entirely sure that soulstones play a role in the overall length of the game. For me, personally, 3-4 stones always go to card draw and, as some are pointing out, large caches lead to smaller crews and fewer activations (And faster games).

 

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