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HipsterWhale

Rooster rider

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I've Played 2 50 point games with rooster riders now and I really don't think they are reasonable. 

 

I know Gremlins had less people in closed beta and as playtesters I feel it's our duty to correct models such as this. 

 

So currently we have a 3 action model with a 14 inch gun that ignores cover and if it gets wounded for 3 damage it can self propel itself into grit and double all it's duel and damage flips. 

 

In addition this model moves 7 inches, can charge multiple times and scampers away on any cheat inside a 6 inch aura. 

 

Because of it's very long range and triple action roosters can often double or triple shoot a model off the board in a single activation. 

 

If they are wounded it's almost guaranteed. 

 

I think the models look amazing. And I love the concept of cavalry but I think they could be redesigned to fill a different role. 

 

I would remake the roosters into mobile scheme runners. Or anti scheme runners. 

 

I would drop their points to 5 or 6, keep their movement, add charge and shoot, keep scamper, replace reckless with free loot, remove grit, remove multicharge. 

 

I think their melee is fine, and I think their gun is not close to reasonable. I would swap it for the good ol boys gun. 

 

Cover exists for a reason. Our models shouldn't ignore it. 

 

As it stands I think I start all my lists with 3 riders in mah, and very likely 3 riders in other crews regardless of tax!

 

Am I offbase here? What are your thoughts on the riders??

 

What would design them to do? What should their role be??

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I feel the bigger issue with Mah is half her crew just isn't good which makes rooster riders seem far better than they actually are. 

Personally I don't like your idea as bushwhackers are already pretty good denial / anti scheme runners. If anything Mah needs more quick beaters to join her on the front which is what I use roosters for. 

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4 hours ago, HipsterWhale said:

I've Played 2 50 point games with rooster riders now and I really don't think they are reasonable. 

 

I know Gremlins had less people in closed beta and as playtesters I feel it's our duty to correct models such as this. 

I'd argue all models need to be looked at, regardless of their faction-playercount ;)Still, always good with fresh eyes.

 

4 hours ago, HipsterWhale said:

So currently we have a 3 action model with a 14 inch gun that ignores cover and if it gets wounded for 3 damage it can self propel itself into grit and double all it's duel and damage flips. 

 

In addition this model moves 7 inches, can charge multiple times and scampers away on any cheat inside a 6 inch aura. 

 

Because of it's very long range and triple action roosters can often double or triple shoot a model off the board in a single activation. 

 

If they are wounded it's almost guaranteed. 

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. Yes, you have a model that hurts, but it also has 0 survivabillity. It has DEF 5 and WP 4 - That is it. They are glass-cannons that will be obliterated the very second, they get caught. That is their function, that is their task. I could see their range get reduced to 12, so that they do not outrange other models, but other than that I think that they are fine.
 

4 hours ago, HipsterWhale said:

I think the models look amazing. And I love the concept of cavalry but I think they could be redesigned to fill a different role. 

 

I would remake the roosters into mobile scheme runners. Or anti scheme runners. 

I do not see the reason to change Rooster Riders from their role, when other options are available to fill that task. Their role is clearly defined damage dealers with little to no survivabillity.
 

4 hours ago, HipsterWhale said:

Cover exists for a reason. Our models shouldn't ignore it. 

I disagree. The entire TRICKSY-theme is based around scampering the area, taking cheap-shoots at the enemy while, if caught, being easy to take down themselves. 

I might have missed the mark myself, but that is my own impression of the crew. 

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43 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

I think you're looking at this from the wrong perspective. Yes, you have a model that hurts, but it also has 0 survivabillity. It has DEF 5 and WP 4 - That is it. They are glass-cannons that will be obliterated the very second, they get caught. That is their function, that is their task. I could see their range get reduced to 12, so that they do not outrange other models, but other than that I think that they are fine

And how you are supposed to catch 7 inch moving 3 action model with 14 range that at least in pack of three kills basically any model (or multiple) you send their way? 

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5 hours ago, wizuriel said:

I feel the bigger issue with Mah is half her crew just isn't good which makes rooster riders seem far better than they actually are. 

Riders struck me as a WTF model. If half of Mah's crew is bad, move some Rooster power into them :)

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20 minutes ago, JiimK said:

And how you are supposed to catch 7 inch moving 3 action model with 14 range that at least in pack of three kills basically any model (or multiple) you send their way? 

Kind of a broad question, but I'll give my counter argument.

Shooting is a given - Many models have options available to them that'll hurt a Rooster Rider, since it only has DEF 5 and WP 4. Grit (Frantic) only kicks in when it hits 4 or less, at which point they become a lot more powerful, but also very close to death. Remember that Reckless requres them to take 1 DMG, which will also reduce their total survivabillity (don't get me wrong - 1 HP for Fast is a great trade)

Most of my opponents have simply caught and killed my Rooster Riders fast, so I don't get to take full advantage of their Grit.

Willpower is also an obvious choice - You'll win most duels if you try, since they have next to no willpower.

And to specifically counter your situation: Ignore them. You go' under the assumption that 3x7 models without Grit, and a Shoot 5 ranged attack will win the game - I disagree. In your scenario he will be forced to spend 1 or 2 of his 3 actions to move, in order to avoid your retaliation. They are born and bred for melee combat - If you deny him that option, he will be forced to only utilize 60% of his model. That is 42% of his SS-pool being miss-used. 48% of you are in a different theme.

Either he enters melee, or looses the board. Shoot 5 with a damage track of 2/3/5 will not clear the enemy team.

I'm not saying Rooster Riders aren't good - I'm just saying they aren't OP.

 

 

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I really don't think they are melee models. 

 

And keep in mind if your opponent does 3 to them they can self ping to turn grit on. There was a point zavros could take a shot at one and didn't because I already had two grit roosters and instead charged a utility piece henchman into it to lock it down. 

 

Once grit is active they do 4 damage on shots more often than 2.

One one of my turns, I activated a rider. Double tapped a full health model and put it in the ground and then shot a 3rd model across the melee scrum in the middle who was try to disengage and corpsed it. 

 

I really think that's not ok. I think we have to be very very careful with 3 action models 

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56 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

I really don't think they are melee models. 

 

And keep in mind if your opponent does 3 to them they can self ping to turn grit on. There was a point zavros could take a shot at one and didn't because I already had two grit roosters and instead charged a utility piece henchman into it to lock it down. 

 

Once grit is active they do 4 damage on shots more often than 2.

One one of my turns, I activated a rider. Double tapped a full health model and put it in the ground and then shot a 3rd model across the melee scrum in the middle who was try to disengage and corpsed it. 

 

I really think that's not ok. I think we have to be very very careful with 3 action models 

Think I'll need a bit more information before I can judge the situation accordingly. Which "Full health" model did it kill?

Maybe this is based on different experiences with different opponents - Perhaps others have similar experiences and feel like Rooster Riders are unbalanced. I agree that 3-action models are strong and should be balanced accordingly - In this situation however, I feel that it is.

 

2 hours ago, trikk said:

Riders struck me as a WTF model. If half of Mah's crew is bad, move some Rooster power into them :)

This could be a solution... I guess?

 

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2 hours ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

I'm not saying Rooster Riders aren't good - I'm just saying they aren't OP.

Name better model with same ss cost or even one higher that moves faster or hits harder in cc? Name a nonmaster non shockwave model that realistically does more damage in one activation with shooting than rooster? (even when it does not have grit) On top it has huge threat range on its own.

Yes they are fragile if you suicide them into close combat.  They are insane when they get to kill models from places where there is little to none reataliation chances by opponent. That can be done pretty easily with actions and movement they have.

If nothing else 3 unactivated roosters lower greatly the opposing players choises for safe model placement.

They are kinda balanced with the support side tricksy crew offers after roosters. In a vacuum though i dont see how that model is not op as hell.

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56 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Think I'll need a bit more information before I can judge the situation accordingly. Which "Full health" model did it kill?

An illuminated at full health in cover 

 

 

Keep in mind grit is so powerful that my opponent was worried about hitting a rider and not killing it instantly. 

 

The only effective strike was hungering darkness soulstone to get extra flips and one shotting a rooster 

 

Every other time @zavros hit a rooster I would trigger reckless and shoot weakened models across the board killing activations. 

 

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37 minutes ago, JiimK said:

Name better model with same ss cost or even one higher that moves faster or hits harder in cc? Name a nonmaster non shockwave model that realistically does more damage in one activation with shooting than rooster? (even when it does not have grit) On top it has huge threat range on its own.

Yes they are fragile if you suicide them into close combat.  They are insane when they get to kill models from places where there is little to none reataliation chances by opponent. That can be done pretty easily with actions and movement they have.

If nothing else 3 unactivated roosters lower greatly the opposing players choises for safe model placement.

They are kinda balanced with the support side tricksy crew offers after roosters. In a vacuum though i dont see how that model is not op as hell.

Is this what Malifaux is though? I hate to compare X to Y without any context for survivabillity, situation, crew or synergy. Still...

Cyclops.

They have The Old Ways, to better ensure a win during the duel, and can reach their Grit (Aggressive)-threshold. This combined with Hard to Kill and Frozen Vigor ensures they are more survivable and still punishing. They have a range of 2 on their melee attack, and a damage track of 3/4/5. 

or

Thalarian Queller.

They are 1 Soulstone cheaper, can use Soulstones, Higher WP. Arcane Shield and Counterspell. They are without a doubt more survivable and have a damage track of 2/3:blast/4 :blast:blast with a trigger that can add burning +1, effectively making it 3/4/5, or force a card discard (with you gaining one). Lower range but Stat 6.

They also have more options on the board than damage, but I'll ignore that aspect.

I simply cannot see why 3x7 high damage but squishy models forcing an opponent think twice about his model placement is a bad thing.

If you disagree with me, then fine - I'll submit to the ruling of the majority :D

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7 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Is this what Malifaux is though? I hate to compare X to Y without any context for survivabillity, situation, crew or synergy. Still...

Cyclops.

They have The Old Ways, to better ensure a win during the duel, and can reach their Grit (Aggressive)-threshold. This combined with Hard to Kill and Frozen Vigor ensures they are more survivable and still punishing. They have a range of 2 on their melee attack, and a damage track of 3/4/5. 

or

Thalarian Queller.

They are 1 Soulstone cheaper, can use Soulstones, Higher WP. Arcane Shield and Counterspell. They are without a doubt more survivable and have a damage track of 2/3:blast/4 :blast:blast with a trigger that can add burning +1, effectively making it 3/4/5, or force a card discard (with you gaining one). Lower range but Stat 6.

They also have more options on the board than damage, but I'll ignore that aspect.

I simply cannot see why 3x7 high damage but squishy models forcing an opponent think twice about his model placement is a bad thing.

If you disagree with me, then fine - I'll submit to the ruling of the majority :D

Df5 with 8 Wds and Scamper for 7SS isn't exactly squishy. Yes, they have Wp4 but this is their only downside.

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1 hour ago, JiimK said:

Name better model with same ss cost or even one higher that moves faster or hits harder in cc?

Pigapult can attack from 12 or 18" away 

swine cursed can get fast pretty easy in a Wong crew for 1 damage, has more defense than a rooster rider and can do irreducible damage

 

There isn't many 7SS models that are as glass cannony as rooster riders (most other 7SS ranged models bring a lot more support instead of pure brute strength). 

at 8SS you're comparing rooster riders against the sow and for 1SS difference I believe you do see a gap between them. 

 

While I do agree that Rooster Riders are on the upper end of 7SS, they aren't a 8SS model. Personally would either buff them and increase cost to 8SS or nerf their Grit to only give :+flip on charge attacks. 

 

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2 hours ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Kind of a broad question, but I'll give my counter argument.

Shooting is a given - Many models have options available to them that'll hurt a Rooster Rider, since it only has DEF 5 and WP 4. Grit (Frantic) only kicks in when it hits 4 or less, at which point they become a lot more powerful, but also very close to death. Remember that Reckless requres them to take 1 DMG, which will also reduce their total survivabillity (don't get me wrong - 1 HP for Fast is a great trade)

Most of my opponents have simply caught and killed my Rooster Riders fast, so I don't get to take full advantage of their Grit.

Willpower is also an obvious choice - You'll win most duels if you try, since they have next to no willpower.

And to specifically counter your situation: Ignore them. You go' under the assumption that 3x7 models without Grit, and a Shoot 5 ranged attack will win the game - I disagree. In your scenario he will be forced to spend 1 or 2 of his 3 actions to move, in order to avoid your retaliation. They are born and bred for melee combat - If you deny him that option, he will be forced to only utilize 60% of his model. That is 42% of his SS-pool being miss-used. 48% of you are in a different theme.

Either he enters melee, or looses the board. Shoot 5 with a damage track of 2/3/5 will not clear the enemy team.

I'm not saying Rooster Riders aren't good - I'm just saying they aren't OP.

 

 

So if shoot them it will get them into grit range if I hit. I also have to take actions to move up to them because they outrange most other ranged models. They also benefit from cover while I don't.

How is anyone catching a rooster rider and killing it early enough when it's at least 14in away. A mobile master like lady j or misaki could do it, but most models are only mv 5/6 with maybe 1in reach. They are shooting you the entire time your trying to get close and you can't use cover. If you just double mv to get closer, they can move away again on their turn and take 2 shots on you again. If I survive all those shots and get in range, 1 attack from a charge is probably triggering grit.

Most damaging spells don't quite have the range, so again I'm probably triggering grit by moving then casting. 

If I ignore them, 3 actions and 7 mv lets them easily do objectives. For example turf war, if they activate later in the turn they could run over to a point and take it scoring them points and denying points from me. They are still taking shots at my scheme runners and at least killing 1 of them a turn, so I can't compete on the same level doing objectives since they are out activating me.

The Thalarian queller only has 2 actions, doesn't ignore cover, and is range 12. That guy is doing some stuff pretty efficiently but is still playing within the rules of the game.

The cyclops doesn't shoot you from across the board and only has 2 actions. It still needs to spend time moving into position to be effective.

This is where the problems are, the riders can spend all of their actions doing something impactful with their mobility and range. The opponent needs to spend extra actions moving to be able to interact with them because they are so far away. Interacting with them enables grit, which makes their actions twice as impactful. Not interacting with them lets them out scheme you for free. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, zavros said:

So if shoot them it will get them into grit range if I hit. I also have to take actions to move up to them because they outrange most other ranged models. They also benefit from cover while I don't.

How is anyone catching a rooster rider and killing it early enough when it's at least 14in away. A mobile master like lady j or misaki could do it, but most models are only mv 5/6 with maybe 1in reach. They are shooting you the entire time your trying to get close and you can't use cover. If you just double mv to get closer, they can move away again on their turn and take 2 shots on you again. If I survive all those shots and get in range, 1 attack from a charge is probably triggering grit.

Most damaging spells don't quite have the range, so again I'm probably triggering grit by moving then casting. 

If I ignore them, 3 actions and 7 mv lets them easily do objectives. For example turf war, if they activate later in the turn they could run over to a point and take it scoring them points and denying points from me. They are still taking shots at my scheme runners and at least killing 1 of them a turn, so I can't compete on the same level doing objectives since they are out activating me.

The Thalarian queller only has 2 actions, doesn't ignore cover, and is range 12. That guy is doing some stuff pretty efficiently but is still playing within the rules of the game.

The cyclops doesn't shoot you from across the board and only has 2 actions. It still needs to spend time moving into position to be effective.

This is where the problems are, the riders can spend all of their actions doing something impactful with their mobility and range. The opponent needs to spend extra actions moving to be able to interact with them because they are so far away. Interacting with them enables grit, which makes their actions twice as impactful. Not interacting with them lets them out scheme you for free. 

Alright.

The question presented was to compare other models with the Rooster Rider, and could function on similar areas - I don't think you can find a single model that functions 100% like a Rooster Rider, because this isn't Chess. This is Malifaux, where there are different models that serve different functions. I presented two models that has the same output in DMG (range and melee).

I'd argue that most, if not all objectives, requires the model to move towards you - They can scheme run, yes, but they aren't blurry Flash-models that avoid every single interaction in the game. If they need to get to point A, you are able to react to it and get in the way.

You also keep saying "across the board". It isn't. I've already agreed that Range 14 is quite a bit, and could see them get that reduced. Is that still too far, and "across the board"? 

Also - If the Rooster Rider spend 2 of his 3 actions moving, then you are not loosing the fight. Hell, if you ignore him it'll take 4 turns for him to get into "Grit"-range. Are you saying a 7-cost model with 1 Shot with a Stat 5 gun is OP?

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@GrumpyGrandpa the point of the thread was to pick others brains in regards to what they should and shouldn't have. 

 

Honestly I think they need a redesign. They do way way too much. I think zavros points are all accurate and valid. I can't think of anything similar. 

 

And while not chess I think the game should absolutely have design rules and structures it follows. For equivalent point and rules valuation. X rule costs 1 soulstone etc. 

 

I would argue that a 14 inch shot is effectively the whole board. A rooster placed in the center of that circle has a 28in+ 40mm circle zone of shooting.

 

That's not touching the corners but it's not missing much else. 

 

I'm saying a 7point 8 health model with plus to duel and damage and 3 shots is OP.

 

It's not one shot. It almost never is? Have you had them on the table yet?

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

@GrumpyGrandpa the point of the thread was to pick others brains in regards to what they should and shouldn't have.

And I've expressed my opinion.

14 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

It's not one shot. It almost never is? Have you had them on the table yet?

Yes. Several times. Are you gonna focus on my argument, or try to belittle my opinion instead? I've already conceded that I'll follow the experience of the masses - Prove me wrong.

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32 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

Agree to disagree, I guess.

December Acolyte:

7 Wds, 5Df, 5 Wp

Blessed (considered a very strong model):

6 Df, 5Wp,  8 Wds, HtW, no ranged attack 

Firestarter: 

7 Wds, Df5, Wp5

Nino Ortega:

7 Wds, Df5, Wp5

Guard Sergeant:

7 Wds, Df5, Wp5

 

Seriously. There is a lot of models that have similar survivability for the same cost. I'm not saying the roosters are tanky, but they aren't super squishy compared to other non-construct models

 

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I have no intention to belittle your opinion @GrumpyGrandpa I'm just trying to understand the disconnect from my experiences and yours. 

 

Maybe we're playing them entirely differently? Maybe me and my opponent value actions and economy differently than your meta. 

 

For there to be such a vast difference of opinion there's gotta be other content involved. 

 

Just looking for how other communities think of this model and others. 

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17 minutes ago, trikk said:

Seriously. There is a lot of models that have similar survivability for the same cost. I'm not saying the roosters are tanky, but they aren't super squishy compared to other non-construct models

Okay.

I'm sorry, but I still don't agree with you - Hopefully we can, like I said, agree to disagree.

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13 minutes ago, HipsterWhale said:

Maybe we're playing them entirely differently? Maybe me and my opponent value actions and economy differently than your meta.

Oh yeah, that or we've come against different crews? A lot of factors for sure. Guess I'll keep my eyes out for some battle reports 😉

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They have stats of 5 for both their attack actions. They have a 0" engagement. Their bonus action hurts them and helps them get to their grit ability.

I really cannot see an issue here whatsoever.

They're definitely going to suffer if they go to 8ss. At that point you'd really need to raise their attack stats to 6 and possibly their health to 8 (to be consistent with other 8ss beaters across factions)... would you prefer that instead? 

 

 

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