The ongoing quality issues and Wyrds lack of responsibility.

[Smeagle]

 

Recently a number of people within my gaming group and the larger community have bought or received items from Wyrd for the new game "The Other Side".

Upon opening the boxes it is a common, almost garuanteed occurrence that at least one model within the box will be bent beyond the ability for it to be used for its intended purpose, and/or so poorly assembled that it again requires a level of repair that should not be expected in a game touted heavily as "ready to play, fully assembled miniatures".

Upon contacting Wyrd regarding a piece, bought at retail pricing of AUD $95, which had bent wheels/chassis so bad that without a large amount of work to repair is completely unusable.

A reply was received from Wyrds "customer service" department, providing a link to a thread in this forum with instructions on how to fix/repair your own models using hot and cold water, bending them and /or freezing them.

No responsibility is being taken by Wyrd addressing the issues a large number of customers around the world have with these sub par models.

I understand that the models were always going to be fully assembled PVC. But for the price point, the models should be complete, with no or very, very minimal issues. And where there ARE issues, Wyrd should be rectifying them as is expected of a company providing sub par and inferior faulty goods or services.

Within this response is the gem - "I apologize for the trouble with your warped plastic. It's not an uncommon issue with certain kinds of plastic, and thankfully there is an extremely simple fix!" - 

If this is the case, Wyrd, why do you insist on using this medium, and continuing to charge such blatantly exorbitant prices for it?

In any case, these fixes are frequently temporary in nature, and should also not be the first response from a company providing the fault in the first place.

Reaper miniatures has similar issues, however these are not attempting to pass them off as premium or charging premium prices for the experience. 

In Australia, consumers are protected by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission. This gives consumers certain rights when it comes to purchases, and requires suppliers, distributors and manufacturers to abide by certain obligations. 

A few things are required of products sold here. 

<Products must be of acceptable quality, that is:

-safe, lasting, with no faults
-look acceptable
-do all the things someone would normally expect them to do.
-Acceptable quality takes into account what would normally be expected for the type of product and cost.

Products must also:

-match descriptions made by the salesperson, on packaging and labels, and in promotions or advertising
-match any demonstration model or sample you asked for
-be fit for the purpose the business told you it would be fit for and for any purpose that you made known to the business before purchasing
-meet any extra promises made about performance, condition and quality. 

You can claim a remedy from the retailer if the products do not meet any one or more of the consumer guarantees, with the exception of availability of spare parts and repair facilities.

The remedies you can seek from the retailer who sold you the product include a repair, replacement, or refund and in some cases compensation for damages and loss.

The retailer can’t refuse to help you by sending you to the manufacturer or importer>

So essentially, if Wyrd is able but not willing to help. Or visa versa then consumers should go directly to the FLGS that sold the products for refund or replacement.

Essentially Wyrd is now passing the buck onto the local stores, as it's all a bit "too hard basket" for them it seems.

This is disappointing from a company known for the quality of its models.

If Wyrd is not able to change the plastic used, at the VERY least, it could review its packaging methods. Having said that, I don't think that would suffice, due to the woeful quality of this material.

This is absolutely losing Wyrd customers for ToS, and the lack of support is losing them customers in general. 

What is Wyrds response to this issue? 

[katadder]

Price point is definitely an annoying issue as these models are priced at hard plastic prices (see gw squads for comparison) but the plastic is massively inferior 

[AverageBoss]

They were going to be even higher at MSRP, but they lowered those prices to match the kickstarter prices last minute (in a few instances the new prices are actually less than the backer "discount" price). Probably would have been quite a few more complaints had they stuck with the old advertised prices.

[marke83]

Minis are NEVER ready from the pack, unless someone has spent some actual careful work on them. While I strongly feel they shouldn't have pre-assembled the miniatures, the actual casting quality doesn't seem bad.

Minis always require work to make them look like intended. IME most people don't do that work; not removing mold lines properly, not filling gaps etc. While not my business, it's hard to take people seriously who  barely paint their models. Not to mention the total lack of preparation. Not saying you are one of those people, but I hope you get my point.

The material then? HIPS (hard) plastic is not superior automatically. Malifaux (and also GW) models suffer from minor undercuts and/or too many pieces in order to avoid obvious undercuts. Sculpt design can be occasionally clunky, and while the detail, holding of shape and workability can be very satisfactory, the material and the casting techniques are far from perfect. 

When it comes to pure aesthetics,  (broad statement) resin is vastly superior material for making miniatures. It also produces toxic dust, requires cleaning, filing, sanding, puttying etc. and can be brittle. Resin models tend to be very expensive as well.

PVC or similar mixes aren't a bad compromise. These type of minis can be quite durable, hold fair amount of detail (especially if sculpt is big) and are acceptable (but not fun) to clean from mold lines. The real problems start to appear when sculpts are designed with too small details, running through the seams. Lesser problems are bent weapons, but they are fixable. In my books, a very tiny problem and nothing compared to often clunky sculpts and gap filling of HIPS models.

I hope you don't take this personally. I'm just sometimes a bit frustrated with these rants. You have every right to be disappointed and unhappy, but some perspective wouldn't hurt. Bent weapons and mold lines are small problems honestly. They're not even problems. Bad casts due to slipped molds (misaligned halves) and badly pre-assembled models are another issue, and I really hope Wyrd would sell TOS models in parts..

[DuBlanck]

53 minutes ago, marke83 said:

Bent weapons and mold lines are small problems honestly. They're not even problems.

17 hours ago, Smeagle said:

Upon opening the boxes it is a common, almost garuanteed occurrence that at least one model within the box will be bent beyond the ability for it to be used for its intended purpose, and/or so poorly assembled that it again requires a level of repair that should not be expected in a game touted heavily as "ready to play, fully assembled miniatures".

For what Wyrd are charging for these models, advertised as "ready to play out of the box", the flaws in their models is a problem and not a small one.

Quality control is not up to the standard of the price.

As the guy said.

[Apost4te]

v

5 hours ago, marke83 said:

Lesser problems are bent weapons, but they are fixable. In my books, a very tiny problem and nothing compared to often clunky sculpts and gap filling of HIPS models.

http://imgur.com/a/I4Xmdsu Is this a Lesser issue because of the way this model is designed it will be near impossible for me to fix but wyrds response has been "tough shit" but in many more words. How am i meant to straighten these models many many warped pieces while not allowing the pieces that are bending under their own weight now before being submerged in hot water from becoming warped messes. Perspective would be nice but its wyrd who need to adjust theirs not us 

[solkan]

12 minutes ago, Apost4te said:

v

http://imgur.com/a/I4Xmdsu Is this a Lesser issue because of the way this model is designed it will be near impossible for me to fix but wyrds response has been "tough shit" but in many more words. How am i meant to straighten these models many many warped pieces while not allowing the pieces that are bending under their own weight now before being submerged in hot water from becoming warped messes. Perspective would be nice but its wyrd who need to adjust theirs not us 

How do you do that without dealing with boiling water?  A $40 dollar variable speed heat gun (the sort you find in a hardware store for stripping paint, but which also gets used for thermoplastic crafting for cosplay) and a set of a pliers.  It works a lot better than the boiling water technique because you’ll actually have control over the temperature.

(I couldn’t get a consistent temperature with water, if my notes are right the temp to shoot for is around 150 to 175C.  A two speed heat gun is going to get too hot really fast.)

Feel free to ask me about my two boxes of Bothoso Cavalry where I straightened the spears, and repositioned half of the horse legs, if you want advice.  In comparison, I think I only needed to straighten two ankles out of two starter boxes.

 

[Smeagle]

 

 

The issue is that all of these factors combined, added to the fact that Wyrd seem to think a generic "just bend them back" is a suitable remedy for a nearly 100 dollar model that fits inside the palm of my hand. 

 

These models are barely worth the money in the state they are provided in. 

 

If the game is to continue, Wyrd need to address the manufacturing and quality control issues. 

 

Already people who have bought models in our group have said they are done with buying TOS models. 

 

Which is a shame, because the game is amazing.

[marke83]

6 hours ago, Apost4te said:

v

http://imgur.com/a/I4Xmdsu Is this a Lesser issue because of the way this model is designed it will be near impossible for me to fix but wyrds response has been "tough shit" but in many more words. How am i meant to straighten these models many many warped pieces while not allowing the pieces that are bending under their own weight now before being submerged in hot water from becoming warped messes. Perspective would be nice but its wyrd who need to adjust theirs not us 

Sorry to see you got that kinda crap. Are all your models like that? Anyway.. you already got an advice from someone else, but this seems like an issue with the pre-assembly. If the figures only came in pieces, these type of problems (while not nice) would be much easier to fix and perhaps even appear less (?). BTW, the water doesn't need to boil. I guess this depends on the country, but here in Finland tapwater temperature has been sufficient for PVC. It just takes a bit longer, but I rather do it slowly than melt the plastic.

I still have to say again, fixing those type of parts is not a biggie (in my books), but then again we might have different experiences with our minis in general. I've bought and commissioned models from.. umm.. I don't know.. 20something manufacturers at least, and every single time they're a pain to prepare to the standard I'm happy with - almost regardless of the material they come in.

@Smeagle - you might have something there, I'm not saying that. The price - quality ratio is always something very personal.  Opinions and emotions change too. For example, I would currently take bent PVC any day over GW plastic at the moment, simply because I've assembled so much GW stuff recently.. I'm so sick of the million pieces and the "so called" quality with ugly undercuts,  seamlines between those pieces and in addition the general mold lines.  Not to diss on GW fans, but their figures seem to get a bit too much praise occasionally. At best, they're great for sure. 

[Saduhem]

I have found the hot water fix to solve pretty much any problem I may encounter. I did get a few models that had glue dripped over a model's face or missing a piece, but Wyrd replaced any model that had any of those issues. I've only had amazing experiences with Wyrd Customer Support.

There is also something to say about the plastic for ToS. You can actually slam a model against the wall and it will be perfectly fine. I've tried :}

[AverageBoss]

The hot water fix has done nothing for me. Over time (even if it takes a month or two), the models lean again until they faceplant. Models like the Alpha Crawler and Walker simply have too much upper body weight for the soft flimsy legs to support them. I have already had to shock my Alpha, Walker, Cutter, and Basotho unit 3 times. At this point I have given up on that being a viable option. I have drilled a hole into my Walker and have run a clear peg from its lower frame to the base. Will probably end up doing the same to the Cutter and Cav unit. For the Alpha, I think I am going to have to cut the legs open and reinforce them with steel rods.

[Smeagle]

55 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

The hot water fix has done nothing for me. Over time (even if it takes a month or two), the models lean again until they faceplant. Models like the Alpha Crawler and Walker simply have too much upper body weight for the soft flimsy legs to support them. I have already had to shock my Alpha, Walker, Cutter, and Basotho unit 3 times. At this point I have given up on that being a viable option. I have drilled a hole into my Walker and have run a clear peg from its lower frame to the base. Will probably end up doing the same to the Cutter and Cav unit. For the Alpha, I think I am going to have to cut the legs open and reinforce them with steel rods.

Case in point that this material is garbage. And still not addressed.. 

[tmod]

13 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

The hot water fix has done nothing for me. Over time (even if it takes a month or two), the models lean again until they faceplant. Models like the Alpha Crawler and Walker simply have too much upper body weight for the soft flimsy legs to support them. I have already had to shock my Alpha, Walker, Cutter, and Basotho unit 3 times. At this point I have given up on that being a viable option. I have drilled a hole into my Walker and have run a clear peg from its lower frame to the base. Will probably end up doing the same to the Cutter and Cav unit. For the Alpha, I think I am going to have to cut the legs open and reinforce them with steel rods.

This IS possibly a very serious issue, if it's widespread problem it could be a finecast-level (I still have two very sad Mangler Squigs sleeping face planted on a shelf). This would need to be addressed.

But there is also the possibility that you've been particularly unlucky, and that a replacement would sort you out. None of my models show any sign of dropping (dual commander Empire/Cult, + some extras), but I don't have an alpha crawler or anything Abyssinia, so could be my stuff are sculpts better suited to the material. I even have some rare finecast models that I consider amongst the fine GW models in my collection...

[solkan]

So I ended up putting my Abyssinia models on a shelf and then coming back to them four weeks later due to unrelated snow storms and blizzards turning a one week trip into a four week trip, and the middle leg segment of the Mechanized Infantry titan is definitely subject to plastic fatigue.  If you're not familiar with the model, the legs have four joints:

• hip
• top knee
• reverse knee
• ankle

and the segment between the top knee and the reverse knee looks like an I-beam.  All of the model's weight goes to those two I-beams, with no cross support to prevent buckling or deformation.  So the material does what you expect it to do and bends to relieve the pressure.  The hip gears for my MI's right leg was resting on the top of the back plate for the reverse knee (so about a 1/4" movement).  So depending on how you want the model posed, either adding cross supports on the legs, or sticking a rod up the model's butt is going to be needed.

My Cutter was leaning against a wall when I left, so no opportunity for stress testing there.  The Cutter might have settled and I might not be noticing it due to the position changes small enough.

For the Cavalry:

• The "rearing" horses were fine, but when I was putting them on their bases I glued their tails to the bases.
• The "two foot contact gallop" poses gravitated to three point contact.  Two out of five rifle barrels show curving.  The result is very close to my threshold of laziness
• The "right foot contact gallop" poses all bent to the left.  The result looks sort of funny, 

Probably need to use pins, although I think it's the sort of thing where you could use a short pin on the front legs and hide the pin with basing grasses.

How did this happen?  It was a Kickstarter for models using a material that the company wasn't familiar with.  It's the "top heavy metal cavalry models breaking legs or bending to the grounding to the ground" situation--sculpt looks fine visually, you find out it can't support its own weight a few months after you ship it.

Edit:  Sample size, for the record:  Three boxes of Bothoso Cavalry, from two different starter pledges (for reasons ).  Eighteen horsies, six of each pose.  Only got one box of the Mechanized and one box of the Cutter.  

[Smeagle]

And still Wyrd remain silent. 

[DeleteAccount]

On 3/2/2019 at 9:08 PM, solkan said:

So I ended up putting my Abyssinia models on a shelf and then coming back to them four weeks later due to unrelated snow storms and blizzards turning a one week trip into a four week trip, and the middle leg segment of the Mechanized Infantry titan is definitely subject to plastic fatigue.  If you're not familiar with the model, the legs have four joints:

• hip
• top knee
• reverse knee
• ankle

and the segment between the top knee and the reverse knee looks like an I-beam.  All of the model's weight goes to those two I-beams, with no cross support to prevent buckling or deformation.  So the material does what you expect it to do and bends to relieve the pressure.  The hip gears for my MI's right leg was resting on the top of the back plate for the reverse knee (so about a 1/4" movement).  So depending on how you want the model posed, either adding cross supports on the legs, or sticking a rod up the model's butt is going to be needed.

My Cutter was leaning against a wall when I left, so no opportunity for stress testing there.  The Cutter might have settled and I might not be noticing it due to the position changes small enough.

For the Cavalry:

• The "rearing" horses were fine, but when I was putting them on their bases I glued their tails to the bases.
• The "two foot contact gallop" poses gravitated to three point contact.  Two out of five rifle barrels show curving.  The result is very close to my threshold of laziness
• The "right foot contact gallop" poses all bent to the left.  The result looks sort of funny, 

Probably need to use pins, although I think it's the sort of thing where you could use a short pin on the front legs and hide the pin with basing grasses.

How did this happen?  It was a Kickstarter for models using a material that the company wasn't familiar with.  It's the "top heavy metal cavalry models breaking legs or bending to the grounding to the ground" situation--sculpt looks fine visually, you find out it can't support its own weight a few months after you ship it.

Edit:  Sample size, for the record:  Three boxes of Bothoso Cavalry, from two different starter pledges (for reasons ).  Eighteen horsies, six of each pose.  Only got one box of the Mechanized and one box of the Cutter.  

I mean, Ok, so Wyrd couldn't initially foresee this, but all I'm reading is making me very weary to purchase any if the Abyssinia combined Arms units or the Empire Dragoons.

Additionaly, it may be all on me being a muppet, but the hot water trick I've tried multiple times, it's fine at the moment but the next day it's deformed again like it was before I did the hot water trick, any pointers?

[solkan]

16 minutes ago, Razhem said:

I mean, Ok, so Wyrd couldn't initially foresee this, but all I'm reading is making me very weary to purchase any if the Abyssinia combined Arms units or the Empire Dragoons.

Additionaly, it may be all on me being a muppet, but the hot water trick I've tried multiple times, it's fine at the moment but the next day it's deformed again like it was before I did the hot water trick, any pointers?

For what it's worth, what I did was get a big bowl of water with ice in it to use as a shock cooler; and used a used a heat gun (a Wagner Furno 500 12-setting heat gun, chosen because that's the brand the store had and I wanted something with better temperature control than a two-setting gun.  I didn't want to accidentally melt stuff.).  I think shock cooling the plastic helps set the position, although obviously I'm not sure how long it took gravity to overtake my cavalry.  

I put the funnel attachment on the heat gun, and got my water bowl and towels ready.  I had glued the models to their bases, grabbed a pliers to hold the models upside down, and held them upside down.  Then blasted each one's ankles with the heat gun until it straightened out, and dunked it in the water.

I've got an entire box of left over plastic sprue runner from my Malifaux models.  I think what I'm going to do is cut some of that sprue into rods and run a rod from the hip to the top of the rear ankle.    Either that or take a very fat paperclip and run it as a pin (straightened heavy duty paperclip) through the foot up to the hip.  The issue is really that the two leg beams can't support the weight of the model.

The closest that I've come to seeing the Dragoon models in person are the pictures posted on the Facebook group back in December by Joseph Girard.  It looks like what you'll have are:

• Horse rearing back on two legs pose.
• "Galloping" rifle guy
• "Galloping" sword guy

where the "galloping" poses look like they either have the cross feet (back rear and opposite front leg) on the ground.  I don't know whether the legs were adjusted to do that, or if you'd need to add basing elements to the sides to support the hooves.  The problematic Bothoso pose (the one that I describe as leaning left) only has one foot on the ground.  That's what lets the model twist to the side.  

For the Cutter, it looks like if you sneak a cross pin into the legs then the back plate for one of the legs is going to end up resting on the cutter's butt plate.  If that pose looks okay to you, you can probably avoid pinning the model if you just fasten those two plates together (or put a wedge between those two plates).  I dunno, from a fake mechanical design perspective, the legs on the Combined Arms titans have a bit of a plausibility issue anyway, they look to me like they could use a pair of cross pistons, so the pins shouldn't look out of place on the models.

 

[Burnin' Coal]

@solkan - thankyou for that in depth analysis - like you I have found a heat gun produces better results than trying to dunk the model in water...the ice trick however you should patent 😉...next models I'm using ice👍

@Razhem - the issue of a straightened part eventually creeping back to bent is something I have experienced as well...BUT....only on two or three of the fifty odd models I've prepped for painting...so I have yet to figure out why...could it be a specific temperature or time heated versus time cooled ? Perhaps it's just pot luck...with the smaller models it appears to be fairly easily rectifiable....Solkan's issue with the Titan sounds more serious....

I notice that two of The Kickstarter models (Binh Nguyen and Samantha Thrace) they have used a darker grey and much harder plastic....long term perhaps it couldn't be beyond the realm of possibilities that Wyrd use this harder plastic for heavier models with issues such as those mentioned ?

[Smeagle]

Chasing an update. Are newer released models made of something other than melted cheese? 

[Nathan Caroland]

Year old.