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Flippin' Wyrd Matt

Lets Talk Honestly about Lucias

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True, every card drawn is a good card if you need the action anyway. I was thinking more of the use three changelings to do a single issue command, that part doesn't really seem worth it to me.

He might benefit more from IR than from LLD, but I'm not sure. Seems to me that placing him away from his crew could make him a lot easier to deal with.

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Agent won't be taken outside of Lucius because without the cards he'll easily die. Defensively he's still Df5 9 Wds which isn't a lot.
I find him strong, but not take-everywhere-strong TBH. A lot of attuned models have high stat Execute trigger attacks. Furthermore removing it won't change a thing because he can still Mimic Execute attacks.

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10 hours ago, trikk said:

Agent won't be taken outside of Lucius because without the cards he'll easily die. Defensively he's still Df5 9 Wds which isn't a lot.
I find him strong, but not take-everywhere-strong TBH. A lot of attuned models have high stat Execute trigger attacks. Furthermore removing it won't change a thing because he can still Mimic Execute attacks.

I disagree, I think you could take Agent in other crews and see a lot of success with it. Don't get me wrong the killing power is hugely amplified by the fact in an Elite crew it takes 6 attacks before activating but that is the problem I'm trying to address. A model that can attack that much with great triggers and decent damage track and ruthless and insane card support, shouldn't have an ability that stops you cheating against it. 

Take away inhuman psychology, it's got no place in the game really, especially on a model like this. Youd still have a solid 9ss beater especially in theme where it can attack so many times per turn. To be honest take away that ability and give it the discard a card for - flips ability and it's good to go. Youd still see it in every Lucius crew and gives it the survivability 

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In my opinion Inhuman psychology should be changed to:

Inhuman psychology - To cheat against this models you must first discard a card to do so. 

Puts both sides back into the game. It gains a small defensive buff and it also means that your opponent can chose to keep a model alive instead of just sitting there and watching Agent 46 remove a model one after another and nothing you can do to stop it even if you wanted to. 

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1 hour ago, Flippin' Wyrd Matt said:

In my opinion Inhuman psychology should be changed to:

Inhuman psychology - To cheat against this models you must first discard a card to do so. 

Puts both sides back into the game. It gains a small defensive buff and it also means that your opponent can chose to keep a model alive instead of just sitting there and watching Agent 46 remove a model one after another and nothing you can do to stop it even if you wanted to. 

Tbf we did discuss this as a possible fix but I'm not sure it isn't too much still with the volume of attacks she can do. Don't get me wrong it's better than it is now but feels like it just further hammers home the insane card advantage the elite crew has over other crews.

Swapping inhuman psychology for the thematic defensive ability would be fairer I think. She can still get so many attacks every turn and gets some staying power on top

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Played a few games with Lucius today. I always had good cards in my hand and managed to pretty much do what I wanted to in all three games. When I play other masters I never feel like I have enough cards, but with Lucius, I always have that 11 or 12 I need to hit the opponent, maybe with a straight dmg flip to booth. I love playing him, but fear that he might actually be just a little too good of a pick right now. 

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Just to chip in, as someone who got shot from 14" away (copied Rifleman ability) five times a turn with no ability to interact with the duels (inhuman psychology) it didn't feel particularly fun or interactive.  Plus Lucius bouncing the Issue Command via Changelings meant he drew four cards in the process. 

Couple of ideas;  make it only work with melee attacks, and/or make it cut both ways; when this model declares an attack action, before any cards are flipped, it may choose to prevent both players from cheating during the duel.

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34 minutes ago, mythicFOX said:

Just to chip in, as someone who got shot from 14" away (copied Rifleman ability) five times a turn with no ability to interact with the duels (inhuman psychology) it didn't feel particularly fun or interactive.  Plus Lucius bouncing the Issue Command via Changelings meant he drew four cards in the process. 

Couple of ideas;  make it only work with melee attacks, and/or make it cut both ways; when this model declares an attack action, before any cards are flipped, it may choose to prevent both players from cheating during the duel.

I like the idea of Inhuman physiology working on melee attacks. Or just make it discard-to-cheat at least. 

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I would say in light of abusing gun lines and agent 46

Inhuman psychology should be: discard a card to cheat against this model in:meleeduals. 

would be the easiest to follow and keep the game moving. Stop this abuse of gun lines as well. Gives him some limited defensive ability in combat as well. Which will also give somthing to the players that say he is to easy to kill. 

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4 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Matt said:

I would say in light of abusing gun lines and agent 46

Inhuman psychology should be: discard a card to cheat against this model in:meleeduals. 

would be the easiest to follow and keep the game moving. Stop this abuse of gun lines as well. Gives him some limited defensive ability in combat as well. Which will also give somthing to the players that say he is to easy to kill. 

This becomes an issue with Betrayal of the Scribe as since it's 2 abilities you suddenly have to have 2 card to cheat.

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4 minutes ago, trikk said:

This becomes an issue with Betrayal of the Scribe as since it's 2 abilities you suddenly have to have 2 card to cheat.

That is a concern but in my games I have never managed to get the scribe to keep up with Agent 46. 

Could you not add that this effect would not stack with others to the end of the ability to keep it from doing this? 

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1 hour ago, Flippin' Wyrd Matt said:

That is a concern but in my games I have never managed to get the scribe to keep up with Agent 46. 

Could you not add that this effect would not stack with others to the end of the ability to keep it from doing this? 

It would work more when you get attacked than when you are attacking. Giving a nonstacking clause is like creating a an issue and at the same time creating a hotfix for it.

I agree with the problem, but I don't like the solution.

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1 minute ago, 4thstringer said:

I think it should stack.   If we are going to move away from him not denying the cheat, at least make it really really costly and hard.

I honestly think the thing that breaks him the most is Mimic, and not Physiology.

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5 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

SHHHHHHH.  If you ruin my Grimwell/Agent 46 combo wombo I'll be so sad. 

I think the fact he can stone for triggers on attacks that are designed for models that don't have attuned makes a big difference.

 

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3 minutes ago, trikk said:

I think the fact he can stone for triggers on attacks that are designed for models that don't have attuned makes a big difference.

 

The problem I am seeing with Agent 46 is he is already an expensive model, and then you are almost always putting aside like 3 stones for trigger and 3 stones for defense with him.   And another 2 for llc.    One bad RJ flip against him and its game over.

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29 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

The problem I am seeing with Agent 46 is he is already an expensive model, and then you are almost always putting aside like 3 stones for trigger and 3 stones for defense with him.   And another 2 for llc.    One bad RJ flip against him and its game over.

Lucius doesn't really need stones, as he's rarely the focus, has card cycling and his triggers most of the time aren't that necessary. So most of the stones you take will be used by Agent anyways.

And there's a lot of models that go Game Over after a RJ flip.

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15 minutes ago, trikk said:

Lucius doesn't really need stones, as he's rarely the focus, has card cycling and his triggers most of the time aren't that necessary. So most of the stones you take will be used by Agent anyways.

And there's a lot of models that go Game Over after a RJ flip.

That doesn't make him less expensive.  Lucius's lack of need for stones is built into his abilities.

You are right about the RJ though.

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7 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

That doesn't make him less expensive.  Lucius's lack of need for stones is built into his abilities.

You are right about the RJ though.

What I mean is: I take the same cache as usual but I don't have to spread the stones on a master and henchman and I can use them all on the henchman. I don't think I'd ever spend more than 3-4 stones on any model, even a master, unless it wins me the game.

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2 hours ago, trikk said:

It would work more when you get attacked than when you are attacking. Giving a nonstacking clause is like creating a an issue and at the same time creating a hotfix for it.

I agree with the problem, but I don't like the solution.

I disagree, inhuman psychology is definitely the issue in its current form, how would u suggest to fix the stacking issue. As i still think this is best suggestion yet. 

Inhuman psychology should be: discard a card to cheat against this model induels

Because he dose need to change, not sure what issues it causes with not being able to be stacked with other Discard effects will cause?

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4 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Matt said:

I would say in light of abusing gun lines and agent 46

Inhuman psychology should be: discard a card to cheat against this model in:meleeduals. 

would be the easiest to follow and keep the game moving. Stop this abuse of gun lines as well. Gives him some limited defensive ability in combat as well. Which will also give somthing to the players that say he is to easy to kill. 

I'd do it discard a card to cheat against non :ToS-Range: to stop gunlines but help with Analyze Weakness and the like.

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I consider this to be a considerable over reaction to the crews actual power level.  

I developed the Agent 46, Rifleman, 3 changling approach.  It's brutal if you bunch your crew so you can take out 2 high value targets using of ricochet.  It is however counterable by identifying where  Agent 46 is going and shutting down that shooting lane with something tough.  The Lucius crew gets murdered if Agent 46 is killed before the enemy crew is crippled.  

Its challenging but if I knew I was facing Lucius I'd make sure I had something with htw a reasonable wound level and armour or shielding.

its tough but there are plenty of solutions available out there.  I got crushed over the weekend whilst having this supposedly OP crew.  It was intelligent positional play in one game and Molly, who utterly dominated this crew in another.

Changing to discard a card to cheat on an Agent 46 attack would trivialise the ability in most games given he's not going to survive most counter punches.

 

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