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Lets Talk Honestly about Lucias

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So just finished a game with Lucias tonight. 

For the most part I think he is in a very good place but he needs some balancing factors and some clarification I found. 

1. So i think the drawing a card when any player discards a pass token maybe over the top, it seems like giving a card rich crew even more cards and seems excessive.

2. Dose his card draw on Follow orders on every model who takes a action during the activation or is it just 1 card per activation no matter how many models u command?

3. Agent 46 inhuman psychology should be changed to if a model wishes to cheat against its attacks it needs to discard a card first. not you just cant cheat seems more balanced and will drain the opponents resources.

4. the trigger to push away on Lucias command should be push in any direction to really give it any use.

5. I have not really found a want to take Alan Reid in the crew yet with the current state of the game he is the same cost as a lot of henchman but seems like he is lacking in some ways. 

they are a few minor changes but i think these would be the final touches his crew needs to be in the right place.

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On the note of Lucius having tons of card draw, is there anything in Guild/NVB that would benefit majorly from having a ton of cards in hand?  Or at least a very reliable hand available?

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9 minutes ago, retnab said:

On the note of Lucius having tons of card draw, is there anything in Guild/NVB that would benefit majorly from having a ton of cards in hand?  Or at least a very reliable hand available?

...Nothing in the game is going to say no to a sculpted hand! This is a silly question.

Perhaps there might be the slightest advantage to a puncture model having better cards to cheat but only if its damage track ramps up appropriately. Perhaps Hoffman and co. are only looking at card values because they can supply their own suits when not having to burn the tokens for positive flips instead. Maybe Perdita and co. want a handful of crap to discard and just want card draw, not filtering.

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My games with Lucius he's feeling very dependent on those cards.  Obeys from lawyers, for example, require you to find a mask to discard plus at least a 9. That's about 90% of what the lawyer is doing.

Similarly, many models in theme have to discard for their only defense.

Everything this crew does is resource intensive.

Now that agent 46 is a glass cannon, this crew has a large chance of struggling to kill anything once he is gone.  

Lucius isn't even stat 6 on any of his attacks.   

How about this as a compromise (since you seem determined to make him just a worse in every way doppelganger) :Agent 46 always cheats second?

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11 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

How about this as a compromise (since you seem determined to make him just a worse in every way doppelganger) :Agent 46 always cheats second?

Not sure what you mean? Agent 46 is still very good and I am unsure what is wrong with the suggested changes to inhuman psychology. it would mean that the crew would not have to be so reliant on card draw as you would have a piece that took away the resources of the enemy. 

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7 hours ago, Ferdat said:

So just finished a game with Lucias tonight. 

For the most part I think he is in a very good place but he needs some balancing factors and some clarification I found. 

1. So i think the drawing a card when any player discards a pass token maybe over the top, it seems like giving a card rich crew even more cards and seems excessive.

2. Dose his card draw on Follow orders on every model who takes a action during the activation or is it just 1 card per activation no matter how many models u command?

3. Agent 46 inhuman psychology should be changed to if a model wishes to cheat against its attacks it needs to discard a card first. not you just cant cheat seems more balanced and will drain the opponents resources.

4. the trigger to push away on Lucias command should be push in any direction to really give it any use.

5. I have not really found a want to take Alan Reid in the crew yet with the current state of the game he is the same cost as a lot of henchman but seems like he is lacking in some ways. 

they are a few minor changes but i think these would be the final touches his crew needs to be in the right place.

1) I don't think it's over the top power level. But it kind of feels like not-that-necessary. But I don't think its a problem.

2) Every model once per activation. So if Lucius Issues Commands 3x on different models, its 3 cards

3) With the change this week, I don't think he needs more changes. I was all in for toning his defensive cheating mechanism, but also dropping his offense would make him meh

4) I don't think its necessary but it would seam ok.

5) Alan does seem weak. He has low survivability (requires a lot of discards) for 2 nice auras that have a very short range.

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4 minutes ago, trikk said:

1) I don't think it's over the top power level. But it kind of feels like not-that-necessary. But I don't think its a problem

Definitely not needed. The card draw is already insane 

 

4 minutes ago, trikk said:

2) Every model once per activation. So if Lucius Issues Commands 3x on different models, its 3 cards

We played it as per activation and that was plenty of card draw. This needs to be reigned in. Something like at the end of this models activation if it made another friendly model take an action draw one card. It's just straight up too much as it is. I appreciate it's part of their defence but with 7 cards, investigator can draw 2, plus Lucius and lawyers that's still alot of draw 

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4 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Definitely not needed. The card draw is already insane 

 

We played it as per activation and that was plenty of card draw. This needs to be reigned in. Something like at the end of this models activation if it made another friendly model take an action draw one card. It's just straight up too much as it is. I appreciate it's part of their defence but with 7 cards, investigator can draw 2, plus Lucius and lawyers that's still alot of draw 

Investigator draws 1 card. Lawyers just draw+discard and they really need a mask to do anything useful. I honestly think Lucius card draw is ok, because it's enclosed in his keyword and there is no way to abuse it outside of the theme. 

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7 minutes ago, trikk said:

Investigator draws 1 card. Lawyers just draw+discard and they really need a mask to do anything useful. I honestly think Lucius card draw is ok, because it's enclosed in his keyword and there is no way to abuse it outside of the theme. 

We felt his theme drew too many cards, and that was quite a few less than the ability apparently allows! It's just too much. 

Lawyers draw one discard one ( get the suit because card draw gives you low mask) and then draw one if they obey ( which they likely will)

Not sure on investigator but I remember it drawing one during it's activation on top of the suck up marker draw but may be misremembering 

I don't want Lucius to be made bad. Just balanced. It's just too much currently. And the putting enemies on - is a super powerful ability, which is fine, but to have the resources to do it on basically any attack is not ok 

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21 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

We felt his theme drew too many cards, and that was quite a few less than the ability apparently allows! It's just too much. 

Lawyers draw one discard one ( get the suit because card draw gives you low mask) and then draw one if they obey ( which they likely will)

Not sure on investigator but I remember it drawing one during it's activation on top of the suck up marker draw but may be misremembering 

I don't want Lucius to be made bad. Just balanced. It's just too much currently. And the putting enemies on - is a super powerful ability, which is fine, but to have the resources to do it on basically any attack is not ok 

Lawyers also need a 9 to do anything meaningful (and you need a lowish mask to even get any mileage out of activating them. And you want to activate them to maximize Tools For the Job and the Shielded bonus action)

Investigators have the same ability that most of the Elite crew has: draw a card if they made an action of out activation + marker-to-card swap.

Putting enemies on :-flipis indeed very powerful. But with the amount of non-targeting damage this edition and focus moving across turns it's worse than M2E (and they had it in M2E). The :-flipis also the crews only defensive mechanism because they have pretty low stats, no HtK, triggers.

Assuming you get a lawyer and Lucius, you draw 4 cards for using a 9 and needing 3x5s. You can bump it up with Changelings but this requires 7s so unless you draw a lot of 7-8 cards it isn't that reliable. I played 2 or 3 games with Lucius and while the card draw was very good, none of the games were stomps. I'm a bit afraid if you take the card draw, the whole keyword becomes pretty starved for resources and drastically falls off.

The only issue I had with Elite was Agent 46 with Stealth + old Inhuman Physiology. But this is kind of sorted now. I think Agent is pretty far down the "hire out of Keyword" list TBH.

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2 hours ago, trikk said:

2) Every model once per activation. So if Lucius Issues Commands 3x on different models, its 3x cards.

Do we think this is what Wyrd intends? Having looked through the rulebook I agree with your conclusion since the ability is on three separate models, but I don't imagine this is intended and is just an unlucky interaction of the "once per" rules with multiple models with the same ability:

Quote

Once per Activation

A model can only take an Action or Ability that is once per Activation once during an Activation.

...

These limitations are all by Action (or Ability) and model, so a given model could, for example, take multiple once per Activation effects so long as they were on different Actions or Abilities

 

Also, is there a scenario where a model CAN take more than one action outside it's activation, during another models activation, given obey can only target the same model once?

I'll pop this in the grammar thread too. 

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7 minutes ago, Hollingydale said:

Also, is there a scenario where a model CAN take more than one action outside it's activation, during another models activation, given obey can only target the same model once?

I'll pop this in the grammar thread too. 

you can issue command one model, then issue command a lawyer to then obey the same model you issue commanded with your previous action, but in the same activation for lucius

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35 minutes ago, Hollingydale said:

Do we think this is what Wyrd intends? Having looked through the rulebook I agree with your conclusion since the ability is on three separate models, but I don't imagine this is intended and is just an unlucky interaction of the "once per" rules with multiple models with the same ability:

I'm pretty sure that was intended. 

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I wish to clarify two very important facts, that drive me crazy:

1) the man is called Lucius (Mattheson)

2) he is in fact a man (or something similar), as is Agent 47 (at least the render looks more man then women)

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24 minutes ago, Tors said:

I wish to clarify two very important facts, that drive me crazy:

1) the man is called Lucius (Mattheson)

2) he is in fact a man (or something similar), as is Agent 47 (at least the render looks more man then women)

The entity calling itself Lucius Mattheson would certainly prefer it if humans thought it was just a man behind the mask. 

 

As for Agent 46, Mimic is in the keyword so who knows its true form. After all, if Arya can mimic Walder . . . .

 

Obligatory comment about being bitter that Graves and Tannen not being mimics in M3E.

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I have 11 games under my belt with lucius so far, the card draw is strong and I love it he is a mastermind who weaves intricate plots using minions to do his dirty work. This is reflected in target numbers to make other models do actions. In essence the strength of the card draw is offset by the fact that he can never gain models he purely increases the efficiency of the ones he has chosen and they to the most part are not resilient and rely on a high card to dodge hits. 

 

As for agent 46 I think the fact he is a henchmen coupled with his inhuman physiology ability plus the execute trigger is strong,  questionable if it's too strong as he is an assassin after all, but just cheating over whatever your opponent flips and stoning for the crow is easy to plan and will drain enemy cards or stones quickly. 

On the flip side he lost some defensive tech.... you know what even at 9 stones I'm good with that he is more John wick than deadpool in my mind.  

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Sure you get 3 cards on three obeys needing a 5, but what does that get you.  Sure the attack with agent 46 is a useful one, but using master actions to get obeys with very limited triggers is a pretty weak ability without the card draw otherwise.  This is especially true in theme.  I guess doppelganger is the other one I would look at as a good use of master AP.   But Alan Reid and investigator are both more about the front of their card than the back ( I've ran a garrotting focused list.  Fun, but not good.). And you don't get the card if you obey an out of theme minion.

Honestly, I think this reaction comes from "I've played one game with this master"

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7 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Sure you get 3 cards on three obeys needing a 5, but what does that get you. 

3 cards and 3 out of activation actions.

Reliably you should draw 2 without cheating, and we needn't discuss the obvious usefulness of out of activation actions.

Sounds pretty good to me.

 

@Ferdat and @Flippin' Wyrd Jamie have spent a lot of time playtesting through closed and open beta, playing masters multiple times before providing feedback: highlighting areas they feel need work and praising otherwise. This is no flippant reaction.

 

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10 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Sure you get 3 cards on three obeys needing a 5, but what does that get you

If you don't see the value in this I'm not sure what to tell you

 

10 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Honestly, I think this reaction comes from "I've played one game with this master"

Matt has played with Lucius quite a few times certainly 2 or 3 times in the last couple of weeks and many times before as a group we've played just an insane amount of m3e and been to a m3e event so we've got a pretty good idea what is good and what is not but good to know that's how it comes across. We waited until playing with the changes before commenting and in the group multiple people have provided feedback post games in our group chat before posting on here

 

We aren't trying to ruin your toys but make them balanced. That level of card draw is unnecessary and too good. Playing it without the multiple draws per activation last night Matt still had crazy card advantage and constant cards to do whatever he wanted 

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5 minutes ago, Hollingydale said:

3 cards and 3 out of activation actions.

Reliably you should draw 2 without cheating, and we needn't discuss the obvious usefulness of out of activation actions.

Sounds pretty good to me.

 

@Ferdat and @Flippin' Wyrd Jamie have spent a lot of time playtesting through closed and open beta, playing masters multiple times before providing feedback: highlighting areas they feel need work and praising otherwise. This is no flippant reaction.

 

I misunderstood the "I played a game with Lucius tonight" part of the post then.  

But I am not as impressed by out of activation actions as you are.  I played a ton of pre-buff Lucius in 2e and can tell you without a shadow of a doubt it's a great way to make a bottom of the barrel master.  Heck, even post buff, he wasn't able to convince Matt to stop using Nellie for even a single tournament game I bet.

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2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I misunderstood the "I played a game with Lucius tonight" part of the post then.  

But I am not as impressed by out of activation actions as you are.  I played a ton of pre-buff Lucius in 2e and can tell you without a shadow of a doubt it's a great way to make a bottom of the barrel master.  Heck, even post buff, he wasn't able to convince Matt to stop using Nellie for even a single tournament game I bet.

Matt was using more Lucius than Nellie since the changes actually 

Obey masters are situationally great but the crew as a whole is strong. It's not just looking at the obey like actions in isolation as a card to generate an action which in turn may need a card isn't always great economy but there are other things in the crew to do besides that and loads of strong abilities 

But between Lucius discarding your best cards and the crazy card draw it's just a bit much 

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