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Initial reaction to Arcanist 2.14 changes.

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Sandeep: It's kind of neat that Sandeep can Voltron Gamin into Golems but this feels like a "win more mechanic". Interestingly enough, 3 Wind Gamin or 3 Poison Gamin can merge to become an Essence of Power. Limiting the Concentrate action to once per activation should stop elemental models from being Mantra bots. I didn't think it was a problem, as it doesn't seem to be an effective way to win but now it's a non-issue.   

Mechanical Doves: Killing the Dove is a bit of a nerf since Colette can now ever only get a single stone out of a Dove, making the stone you spend to summon one essentially a wash. Previously, Colette would net a soulstone by summoning a dove, allowing a Dove to be used to to Soulstone for one purpose, and then used to stone for it's replacement. 

Soulstone Miner: The Miner can get generate a Soulstone and Bury on the same turn now due to the change in Stunned. It's going to need to flip to Bury now but at least it's possible to hit the trigger that places a Pit Trap now.

Medical Automaton: Quick Cure is a cool ability which essentially allows the Automaton to take the Assist action for free.

Howard Langston: Terrifying should make Howard a bit harder to deal with. 

Joss: Though it's a bit of a nerf, it's nice to see the Irreducible damage not be guaranteed. Hyper Reactor is a straight up improvement to Spool Up since it will give the Power token before determining if the attack hit or miss. If Joss is going to lose an attack duel, you can now cheat in a low tome to get him a Power Token to spend on his next attack.

Kaeris: A bit less likely to need to cheat to generate a Pyre. The change to Third Degree Burns is a big buff since range and LoS to Kaeris no longer matter. I'm not sure how the bit about enemy models are never unaffected by Pyre Markers will interact with other abilities. Does it work against Incorporeal models?

Eternal Flame: The change to the timing and trigger on this really helps out since the ability will now be able to affect models that don't take damage from Burning.

Firestarter: Draw Out Secrets gives a Firebug crew some extra game when it comes to scheme running. It also lets the Firestarter help setup models with Arson (though I think it might be too much work for too little pay off in most cases). 

Ironsides: The change to Stun is a nice buff for Toni. She can now use Second Wind to remove the Stunned condition, which was probably the condition that she most needed condition removal to deal with. 

 

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Agree with the above, just wanted to add in three things:

RE: Sandeep's Gamin Growing game, the easiest fix (and future-proofing) IMO would be to both remove Banasuva's Demise (or give him a new unique one, off the top of my head a friendly Sandeep can take damage to heal Banasuva X and place him b2b with Sandeep?) and then make the growing up based on the Elemental Enforcer having the same Demise as the Elemental Minions.  That way when we do get more Gamin/Golems in the future, we don't have to worry about giving them their own unique keywords too (probably retroactively for Poison and Wind).

For the Doves, yes it is a nerf but wording-wise she can now use this when she has 0 stones left in her pool I think, where the previous wording was more specific in it occurring after she uses a stone to gain it back.  That said, I'm thinking Trick of the Hat should either now be built-in or it should go on an action that doesn't have a stone in the pool, since I'm super uncertain how often I'd want to spend a stone and opt out of a Scheme Marker to get a Dove back (seriously, dropping long range Scheme Markers is probably more than half the reason I use Presto-Chango).

Joss' new Arc Axe and trigger is neat, but I'm not sure what the benefit of it being "immediately" rather than "when resolving" is?  Also, not sure when this happened but he can't use Power Tokens for :+flip's or suits?  Just looking over his card right now, it feels like he's probably the most complex Power Token user in all of the Augmented, it seems like he's gaining and spending them on half his card and in ways totally different from the others.

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Automaton: puzzling, but I’ll take it—admittedly, it is almost the only model guaranteed to be in range of something so it could use the assist action. (Just assembled mine, too, so this is a good excuse to get roly-poly onto a base and then the table.)

Howard Langston: long live terrifying Df4. Well, longer, anyway. ;) 

Joss: hate to say it but this is now needlessly complicated, to the point I would rather the irreducible quality become a trigger even though it costs Joss more. The obvious candidate is Aetheric Breakdown, on a mask, ignoring resist triggers and negating soulstone use, even though that trigger once was a defining quality of a Leveticus attack. (Yes, I like the idea that either a crow or a fancy tome trigger turns the damage irreducible without additional cost, but it is clunky.)

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Why does wyrd keep feeling the need to make golems able to hit the table without hiring them? Seriously I can spend an eleven for the first 2 turns and a thirteen the 3rd and assuming I brought in 13 points in gamin (which I'm sure you do.....) I can have all 3 golems in 3 turns.....this would be more ok in my mind if all 3 gamin had to have the upgrade on them and/or the golem had an upgrade that basically made his summon either harder, or lose the amount of summons he can get out by 3, cuz its three summons in 1. Basically I dont want to see more than 1 golem unless you hired it, but that's just my opinion, thoughts?

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Very happy to see all change and find them interesting...

A little bit sad to don t see real change on Toni but...

It s now time to test for two weeks ;)

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First off, the Captain Planet reference is HIGHLY appreciated and I'm super happy to see this little funny nod to a near and dear cartoon of my past. Oh and the ability itself looks awesome. We'll need to see how it performs. 

The Kaeris buff is appreciated but there is still a fundamental flaw with how her crew currently operates. Making Pyre's more efficient offensively is great but there is a real need to use them to support the crew. With only two pyre's and possibly 1 more from Carlos (not built in), it's simply not enough to do what you want with them. She needs more Pyre Markers. Also, I'd really love to see the burning condition have a bit more of a purpose within the crew itself. 

I agree that the "Trick of the Hat" trigger is somewhat pointless now and not worth the sacrifice of a scheme marker - or worth giving the opponent a pass token. I like the trigger but it should go onto one of her other abilities

Langston getting terrifying is a nice adjustment, I'm not sure it makes him a better fit with Ironsides as it's just an overall buff. I'm still disappointed with the lack of spider abilities. 

Draw out secrets is a great trigger but it's in the wrong spot IMO. Every time I play Firestarter, he's often way far away from any action. Now if Kaeris or the Firebranded had this as a trigger I'd be elated. 

 

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8 hours ago, retnab said:

 

Joss' new Arc Axe and trigger is neat, but I'm not sure what the benefit of it being "immediately" rather than "when resolving" is?  Also, not sure when this happened but he can't use Power Tokens for :+flip's or suits?  Just looking over his card right now, it feels like he's probably the most complex Power Token user in all of the Augmented, it seems like he's gaining and spending them on half his card and in ways totally different from the others.

His axe gets irreducible damage if he spent or gained a power token during the action, so by gaining a token immediately I guess this is so that it is clearly satisfied before resolving damage to reduce any timing issues? Otherwise I agree that it seems a little on the complicated side ATM.

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Sandeep change:

I am so happy :) Being able to summon the big golems (even with extra steps) is what makes summoning more fun in my book! I wonder how balanced it will really turn out to be though.

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I believe this doesn't still solve the Colette issue. Nobody will attack her directly through the whole game because its counter-productive and brings you more harm than benefits.

 

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8 minutes ago, trikk said:

I believe this doesn't still solve the Colette issue. Nobody will attack her directly through the whole game because its counter-productive and brings you more harm than benefits.

 

I agree, and it also removes and or makes sword tricking your own doves to bury more expensive. 

But maybe I feel that sword tricking to bury yourself is necessary because my Colette has been attacked once over four games. 

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8 minutes ago, valkirsWrath said:

I agree, and it also removes and or makes sword tricking your own doves to bury more expensive. 

But maybe I feel that sword tricking to bury yourself is necessary because my Colette has been attacked once over four games. 

With how Serene Countenance and her trigger work:

 

Most models with no SS usage or built in:+flipcan't attack her because they are most likely distracted.

Models with SS usage can attack her. Let's say I have a 3/4/5 dmg track and I attack her with focus and a stone to get through the 2 :-flip and I cheat in a severe.

I hit her. I deal 5 dmg. The trigger reduces it to 3. she then stones 2 away and  Buries.

I just wasted 2 actions, 1 stone and 2 high cards (to hit and do severe) from a high damage Henchman/Master.

Now she can reappear on a large part of the table. Give a bunch of Distracted and possibly Stunned. 

 

 

Now if I don't attack her:

I'm 1 stone up, 2 severe cards up, have 2 high damage actions which I can use to kill Carlos/Cassandra/Duet, didn't give her a free teleport, didn't give myself a ton of Distracted and possibly Stunned. What I lost is, you have 1 more Soulstone and 1 les dmg on Colette.

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Yeah, you've got this figured out Trikk. I may find it fun to play as Colette, and I love her dearly, but this is kinda ridiculous. 
Hitting her is never a good choice, unless you brought a specific counter. For example the Misaki player i faced game three who brought an anti-resistance trigger upgrade.
My solution? Just stay buried with swordtrick until I felt safe. Colette currently is very uninteractive, which is annoying. From what little I played with her in M2e she's gone from feeling uninteractive in your opponents favour to being uninteractive in Colette's favour.

And to reiterate, once again, during a whole tournament my Collette buried six times, but never got targeted once, because my opponents realised the futility of it. Even against a gremlin where she was alone at the corner against two models they didn't even think about it, I had to fly out a dove to bury.

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51 minutes ago, trikk said:

With how Serene Countenance and her trigger work:

 

Most models with no SS usage or built in:+flipcan't attack her because they are most likely distracted.

Models with SS usage can attack her. Let's say I have a 3/4/5 dmg track and I attack her with focus and a stone to get through the 2 :-flip and I cheat in a severe.

I hit her. I deal 5 dmg. The trigger reduces it to 3. she then stones 2 away and  Buries.

I just wasted 2 actions, 1 stone and 2 high cards (to hit and do severe) from a high damage Henchman/Master.

Now she can reappear on a large part of the table. Give a bunch of Distracted and possibly Stunned. 

 

 

Now if I don't attack her:

I'm 1 stone up, 2 severe cards up, have 2 high damage actions which I can use to kill Carlos/Cassandra/Duet, didn't give her a free teleport, didn't give myself a ton of Distracted and possibly Stunned. What I lost is, you have 1 more Soulstone and 1 les dmg on Colette.

Even assuming that you have noone to remove distracted distracted or that you simply take another Action to get rid of distracted, your example makes her burn soulstones extremely fast. Especially now that her doves only can be used once and still are easily removed. If you bring 5-6 SS, that means that you are down to 4-5 Stones after your example, because if you attack my WP, l  need to stone the book in to bury. After one attack. And she Needs These Stones for her other trigger, too. And it is not as if the rest of her Crew does not Need These Stones either, e.g to protect itself. Cassandra will die very quickly without These Stones, no matter how much distracted is flying around. 

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I’ve been saying this for awhile too. Opponents are who understand the game are never going to target her because the costs to her are minimal, vs the costs for the attack, and she gets a benefit for the attack.

That’s a situation that is going to lead either to gotcha games, which are no fun, or non-interactive games, which are also not real fun. 

Additionally you can’t have high mobility, high board impact, and high survivability. Pick 2, otherwise you have to moderate them.

So the developers need to decide what they want Colette to do. If she’s going to come at the game sideways like many people want that’s going to be a nightmare to balance and tone for perception (and yes perception is important), and have an absurdly high chance of going wrong in either direction, but IF it goes right could be one of the most popular set of rules in the game.

For myself I really think she needs almost a total rework. Both in terms of what she does to the enemy crew/how she helps her crew. Because at the moment I don’t think she’s fun to play against, and I think she feels unsatisfying to play.

For myself, as I actually do really like Colette, I could see her being a soft control master. So here are some random 

I’d make her relatively easy to hit, and relatively easy to kill in melee, in 2-3 actions, but give her a demise ability called (Shell Game) and tie that to her doves or her performers in some way. So that In order to really kill her your going to have to deal with her AND her doves or crew through clever play and positioning. But it allows you to interact with her and get her away from specific points on the board through attacks if you need/want to, thus promoting interaction. It also helps with the “don’t lead a crew with Colette, just hire her to be your scheme runner” because while you could do that her survivability is closely tied to her crew, so she’ll be either very expensive to hire with elements of her crew, or very fragile without them.

Give her an ability called smoke and mirrors which makes her difficult to target at range. Perhaps no cheating offensive flips for attacks further than x”. Again promotes play interactions in that they can make the attack, but a severe disadvantage, but if Colette herself runs out of cards to cheat she can become more vulnerable.

Give her an aura to just automatically count and use enemy scheme markers as her own called SS smuggling.

Possibly give her an ability called, which one’s real?, to let her draw range and los of her actions from a subsection of her crew, so that she doesn’t have to have extreme mobility to project power. Living performers?

Im not sure what abilities she should have but given how much distracted her crew gives out it would be neat to let her use the distracted condition as a resource, in the misdirection sense of magicians, possibly letting her reduce or eliminate distracted to use as SS, or as costs for attacks.

I mean I don’t think my suggestions are the best, or NEED to happen. But I notice from most reports no one is really enjoying Colette in her current form, while her crew seems mostly, ok, certainly needing a few tweaks here and there. So in two weeks I’d really try a complete rework on her to try to make her more satisfying to play, and more interactive for the opponent.

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37 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

But I notice from most reports no one is really enjoying Colette in her current form, 

In this, I agree. The bury as well as her overstacked defenses makes her non-interactive for both players. I actually really like your ideas for Shell Game and the no cheating on ranged attacks against her.

I'll definitely be giving them more battle reports over the next two weeks as Kyle rightfully suggested. Not just of Colette, but she's definitely my focus, since Mei seems pretty locked it, Kaeris was fun when I played her three updates ago and she's gotten so she requires less setup. Toni I think could still use a little work to actually lock people down instead of just killing them either slowly or spending a lot of Adrenaline to do it (when she doesn't gain much for the number of ways she can use it). Marcus and Chimera I think still need some tweaks, so I'll be testing them as well - I just really want Marcus to feel interesting and for Vogel to have a reliable reason to shapeshift.

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Heck if they really wanted to go sideways we could bring back her 1e avatar idea and make her 1 model in 3 places. 3 Colette miniatures that all activate at the same time, and share an action limit. So she’s one model in 3 places. Make each one... easyish to moderate difficulty to kill, but to fully kill her you have to do that 3 times.

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3 hours ago, Sebasthos said:

Even assuming that you have noone to remove distracted distracted or that you simply take another Action to get rid of distracted, your example makes her burn soulstones extremely fast. Especially now that her doves only can be used once and still are easily removed. If you bring 5-6 SS, that means that you are down to 4-5 Stones after your example, because if you attack my WP, l  need to stone the book in to bury. After one attack. And she Needs These Stones for her other trigger, too. And it is not as if the rest of her Crew does not Need These Stones either, e.g to protect itself. Cassandra will die very quickly without These Stones, no matter how much distracted is flying around. 

What you just said is:

"If you spend multiple actions to get rid of Distracted and I somehow won't give you any in the meantime, have a lot of high damage Wp attacks, have focus on and a stone, you might actually do some damage to me, so I can Distract a chunk of your crew and give you Stunned while I can teleport away."

 

Sorry, I'll pass and try to kill Cassandra before she gets Finesse up....

 

If I'm punished for missing her and I can't reliably hit her, why would I even bother?

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1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

For myself I really think she needs almost a total rework. Both in terms of what she does to the enemy crew/how she helps her crew. Because at the moment I don’t think she’s fun to play against, and I think she feels unsatisfying to play.

I'd like to offer my own experience as a sideways/counterargument. In my games with Colette so far, I've enjoyed playing her. I find her much more satisfying to play than in M2e. I feel like I can get more done, without being as finicky. Like my third opponent in the tournament told me, she seems to have a high skill ceiling. There's a lot of tricks and finesse you can do with her, and her crew is kinda flexible. They're just not the best at straight up murder, or taking murder. The problem I have with her is not that she's not satisfying to play for me, it's that I feel like I'm playing the game alone. I'm activating Colette, doing her tricks, and the opponent is just ignoring me, because that is the correct decision. 
Slinging up an Emissary and a Duet to crash into the center turn one was extremely satisfying to pull off, but after that Colette was just a glorified scheme runner going around giving me points. She's fun and exciting, with a big margin for error, but that error will lie mostly on me. I lost a vital point in game one because I just left Colette around Cojo, achieving nothing but to get pushed off of the strategy marker. Malifaux is a multiplayer game, I want it to be an intense match of skill and decision making going back and forth between me and my foe. I don't want to have half my crew literally just walk around doing as they please because attacking them is hardly ever a positive.

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4 hours ago, trikk said:

With how Serene Countenance and her trigger work:

I’ve been of the opinion that Serene Countenance is the problem with Colette feeling too defensive. What if Serene Countenance was changed from giving enemy attacks - flip ls to making enemies unable to cheat attack flips against her? There are some situations where it becomes a bit stronger than the current Serene Countenance but I think that in general it stops some of the really frustating issues with stacking multiple - flips. You’re never going to get to cheat your attack flip against her but at least a using a focus will get you flipping a single card against her while distracted.

 

Or maybe make Serene Countenance just make enemy models unable to cheat damage flips. 

I think either of those are still good Defensive abilities for other models that would be affected by the ability changing.

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6 hours ago, Gesuma said:

Sandeep change:

I am so happy :) Being able to summon the big golems (even with extra steps) is what makes summoning more fun in my book! I wonder how balanced it will really turn out to be though.

I think that the majority of reports on this ability will either say that the ability is overpowered or that it is useless. In games where Sandeep is already winning it’s going to seem overpowered because the opponent will feel like Sandeep is getting put Golems on the board without them being able to much to stop it. In closer games or games where Sandeep is losing it will feel like a useless ability since Sandeep will either not want to trade 3 models that can help score for 1 model or his opponent will be able to keep him from having 3 Gamin of the same type on the board and close enough to each other to combine.

I do think that maybe it needs to be limited to when Sandeep is the crew’s Leader.

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14 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I’ve been of the opinion that Serene Countenance is the problem with Colette feeling too defensive. What if Serene Countenance was changed from giving enemy attacks - flip ls to making enemies unable to cheat attack flips against her? There are some situations where it becomes a bit stronger than the current Serene Countenance but I think that in general it stops some of the really frustating issues with stacking multiple - flips. You’re never going to get to cheat your attack flip against her but at least a using a focus will get you flipping a single card against her while distracted.

 

Or maybe make Serene Countenance just make enemy models unable to cheat damage flips. 

I think either of those are still good Defensive abilities for other models that would be affected by the ability changing.

If I can't cheat and I have to focus/spend a stone to get through distracted/ it doesn't change a thing.

The fact she gets to bury/pulse distracted regardless of my success or failure is what, IMHO, will make no one want to hit her.

 

Make the Defensive Trigger "After failing" and reduce damage by 1 instead of 2. So now I either miss and get no effect or I hit her, do some permanent damage and for that you can disappear and pulse Distracted. Make her pulse Distracted when she buries instead of when she unburies, basically disappearing with a magical flash/smoke. Or both. I don't know how this would end up in practice and if she would need stat buffs but it creates an interesting minigame of "Catch me if you can". 

 

If my gain from attacking her doesn't outweigh the gain she gets from teleport + distracted, it's counter-productive for me to attack her. 

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7 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I think that the majority of reports on this ability will either say that the ability is overpowered or that it is useless. In games where Sandeep is already winning it’s going to seem overpowered because the opponent will feel like Sandeep is getting put Golems on the board without them being able to much to stop it. In closer games or games where Sandeep is losing it will feel like a useless ability since Sandeep will either not want to trade 3 models that can help score for 1 model or his opponent will be able to keep him from having 3 Gamin of the same type on the board and close enough to each other to combine. 

I do think that maybe it needs to be limited to when Sandeep is the crew’s Leader.

Sounds like you do not want to see any teams with more than one master in them?

It is already quite limited if Sandeep is not leader. To get two Golems on the board you need to hire two gamins of one kind and one gamin of another kind and then Sandeep can summon 2 gamin to the one gamin(max two summons) combine a Golem that then gains one of the summon upgrades, so sandeep can only summon one gamin now which can combine with the other two gamins. You have payed 12SS for those 3 hired gamins that Sandeep spend actions, ss and or good cards to turn into two Golems. Without hired Gamins sandeep cannot summon enough to make a golem when he is not leader.

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Oh and basically the main part of the fun I see added in this is that I can do more stuff with the summoning now and mix it up more. Even if it is weak I like that I can do it!

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55 minutes ago, Gesuma said:

Sounds like you do not want to see any teams with more than one master in them?

It is already quite limited if Sandeep is not leader. To get two Golems on the board you need to hire two gamins of one kind and one gamin of another kind and then Sandeep can summon 2 gamin to the one gamin(max two summons) combine a Golem that then gains one of the summon upgrades, so sandeep can only summon one gamin now which can combine with the other two gamins. You have payed 12SS for those 3 hired gamins that Sandeep spend actions, ss and or good cards to turn into two Golems. Without hired Gamins sandeep cannot summon enough to make a golem when he is not leader.

Not at all, I've liked multiple master games. It just seems like having Sandeep on Golem replacement duty for Rasputina, Kaeris, or Mei Feng has the potential to get a little out of hand. When Sandeep is a hired master it feels like that's when he is most likely to want to summon a single type of Gamin most of the time. It may not end up being an issue but I think that if there's a case where combining Gamin into a Golem has the potential to be overpowered, it's there.  

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