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thebarbalag

2/14 Pandora

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Can I just say, "Thank you, Dev Team!" Thank you for listening, and thank you for configuring the Woes into something I'm genuinely excited to play with. Going to try to put them on the table tonight. Thanks!!!

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5 minutes ago, thebarbalag said:

Can I just say, "Thank you, Dev Team!" Thank you for listening, and thank you for configuring the Woes into something I'm genuinely excited to play with. Going to try to put them on the table tonight. Thanks!!!

What exactly are you excited about (looking for the bright side of this)? I am honestly a little disappointed with the changes. Misery aura is a 4 inch conditional move if you give stunned out you get to move 2 inches... it seems too small to be useful most the time. Our damage output is still lackluster in this group and even more so now with no more ping damage from cheating. 

Pandora's def/wp trigger at least is useable even if stunned got nerfed and she isnt going to survive. (2 inch move away after giving them stunned should help theoretically when you get it off)

Opportunist is now just bad on most of the woes (stunned is 1 condition that we still cant give out very often, stat 4 on sorrows). You're giving the debuff, then removing it for a + on attack only. Why not just focus for the + to damage as well and leave the debuff on them. Its silly compared to many other factions giving out buffs to themselves and then using them to their full effects. We have to take 2 actions for something a focus can do anyways for 1. 

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1 hour ago, Bluefyr said:

... Misery aura is a 4 inch conditional move if you give stunned out you get to move 2 inches... it seems too small to be useful most the time. ...

I read it as if you move the target 2”, is it wrong?

edit: I think the new Woes synergies really well with each other now, I don’t get why you are negative, if it proves to be underpowered after a couple weeks of testing it’ll be adjusted (more damage maybe?) but now it’s a control crew that doesn’t totally invalidate half the enemy’s crew with a bonus action from 6 ss models. It doesn’t seems weak to me.

re-edit: 

 

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Looks like Pandora had a rework similar to Molly! Can't wait to play it! I love that the crew is even more about positioning! I love that opportunist does not randomly counter some crews anymore! Thank you Wyrd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

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Really not seeing the joy here. Pandora has gradually got worse throughout the while playtest from closed through open. Now not even the plinking damage and moving an enemy 2" if it gains a condition  within 4, wow 🙄

Shame really as Pandora box was what got me into faux in 1e

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13 minutes ago, Neverbear said:

Looks like Pandora had a rework similar to Molly! Can't wait to play it! I love that the crew is even more about positioning! I love that opportunist does not randomly counter some crews anymore! Thank you Wyrd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

They literally could have done this several different ways and much better. Why not just give them the + with any condition on the enemy model. Instead they make us put a condition on them to begin with thats a debuff, and then remove it. They literally just needed to take out the "remove the condition from the enemy model" part of their previous version. 

This feels like a straight nerf on top of Misery aura damage being removed. 

Moving something 2 inches after it gets stunned is interesting but its a 4 inch aura when we have 8 inch range on our stat 4 actions that cause stun (outside of candy / pandora).

Pandora has no clear direction of what she wants to be or be doing (a once per activation shockwave and no melee, a 4 inch aura to move models, a 6 inch aura to activate different models... it feels all over the place (control maybe?. I feel like the theme is lack luster in every area, damage, survival, scheme running, etc with no real synergy except now a 4 inch bubble that lets you move a model 2 inches once per activation.

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I also read that as moving the enemy, but it's vague.  Of the two, I certainly prefer enemy.

 

On the whole, I'm underwhelmed.  Opportunist is very weak, and the loss of aura based damaged just feels wrong.  It's got potential, though.  There's a lot of free movement to work with.  one Stunned could potentially move half a crew (if friendlies move).

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1 hour ago, Distruggiuova said:

I read it as if you move the target 2”, is it wrong?

edit: I think the new Woes synergies really well with each other now, I don’t get why you are negative, if it proves to be underpowered after a couple weeks of testing it’ll be adjusted (more damage maybe?) but now it’s a control crew that doesn’t totally invalidate half the enemy’s crew with a bonus action from 6 ss models. It doesn’t seems weak to me.

 

 

You're correct i read it wrong. It does move the enemy model after re-reading it. Thats helpful for survival on Pandora against melee assuming her def trigger goes off. 

I'm negative because i've been playing with and against 4 other factions (gremlins, outcasts, arcanists and ressers) and they all get to buff and synergize with their own models with no negatives to doing it. Most of them get 2 benefits from 1 action. Sometimes from a trigger and sometimes built in. We now have 2 crews that have built in negatives to their actions or have to jump through hoops to get something to go off thats half of what a focus condition does in this crew. 

Its just frustrating seeing old m2e prejudices come out because a master was good then and they hold that against her now (people not playing her and these abilities). If you compare this crew and their abilities to other factions crews abilities and synergy its laughable with this version. I really hope to see this changed in a more positive direction for the crew so that they can do something useful / fun / combo like?.

The one thing i will say that Pandora has going for her which is huge is her 6 inch activation control. This tilts many people if they are bunched up  or even if you catch their master and 1 beater. The fact that she can choose who the next model that activates is causes a massive amount of Salt. When you tell someone no they cant use that model and have to use this model way over here, over and over again while you kill their master who is near pandora and they cant get them out of harms way... it is bad. If you've ever played warmachine in 2nd ed and played against Epic Haley this is the comparison i'm hearing in my meta when i play her. They could care less about the removal of conditions or the stunned or any other abilities as long as they have choices and get to play the game. This feels like they dont get to play when it goes off. 

No one i played with has even come close to seeing her as a counter to condition crews in her previous versions of Open Beta. She still had activation issues to remove conditions to get + on models that you probably dont want to attack, or are really wanting to wait to go with, but cant afford to let a beater have fast and focus. Honestly those synergy crews are amazingly strong and it was nice having Something in our bag to tone them down. Since neverborn has few (zero?) options for synergistic masters in faction atm. (im yet to play Marcus or the guild guy as i didn't pick them up yet).

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Just now, RatsInTheWalls said:

I also read that as moving the enemy, but it's vague.  Of the two, I certainly prefer enemy.

 

On the whole, I'm underwhelmed.  Opportunist is very weak, and the loss of aura based damaged just feels wrong.  It's got potential, though.  There's a lot of free movement to work with.  one Stunned could potentially move half a crew (if friendlies move).

Its once per activation, and you move the enemy model not ours. So it wouldn't work like that even if it moved friendly models.

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45 minutes ago, Bluefyr said:

Its once per activation, and you move the enemy model not ours. So it wouldn't work like that even if it moved friendly models.

Perhaps I miss understood; I thought once per activation apply per model?  Isn't that part of how the Lucius order chain works?

At least people seem to agree that it's the more interesting target moved.

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I'm really digging this.
I always thought Woes would benefit from being able to move a bit more, this reverts the idea on its head.... and I like it!
The new opportunist is a lot more focused on what the crew achieves on its own and a lot less on what the opponent just happened to have declared. 

With the ability to shuffle enemy models about, having models gather around Candy and/or Setup a huge activation with Fears Given form and The Box Opens is a lot more feasible. Between that and scatter, there's a lot of area control.

I'm sure @Neverbear is going to want to test the living spirit out of this. If anyone else wants to test this together, you can shoot me a message. 
Until I see this on the table I'm not sure how to evaluate how big or small the range on the new Misery is in relation to its effects. This might also warrant hiring in a swampfiend or two to try to move some poor souls into Penetrating stench. 
Baby Kade is a lot more interesting now

My initial reaction was pretty mild, but the more I read over the cards the more interesting it looks and I'm starting to understand what the designers had in mind, and all the subtle interactions that are implied.

I wonder if the 1 damage ping from cheating should have been kept. 

As usual, @matt and @Kyle, these reworks are mind-blowing and look a hell of a lot of fun. Not sure how you guys managed to craft this with all the pressure from the ongoing arguments over this last week. Please stay with Wyrd!
 

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The only ping damage left in the crew is the sorrows...

Death by a thousand cuts was a major appeal of Pandora’s crew previously.  It’s literally how she was first described to me. Even if this crew works well (which it very well may) a lot of folks will be disappointed by the complete change in play style. 

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Played her tonight. It's a lot of fun. Feels less like I'm hanging by a thread the whole game, but definitely still a skill Master, which I love. Pandora's defensive Trigger actually works. The "limitation" to removing Stunned doesn't feel like so much of a limitation. I mean, I was playing against Perdita, so they weren't applying too many of their own conditions, but it felt powerful enough to have Pandora able to strip their Focus as I pleased. I'm assuming that Pandora's Misery pings on any condition just like her Opportunist? The wording seems to make it work like that. Anyway, the long and short is, the crew feels like it has much more intermodel synergy. Pandora feels more like a Master. I wouldn't mind Pandora and Candy having engagement ranges, but I'll live without it.

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27 minutes ago, thebarbalag said:

Played her tonight. It's a lot of fun. Feels less like I'm hanging by a thread the whole game, but definitely still a skill Master, which I love. Pandora's defensive Trigger actually works. The "limitation" to removing Stunned doesn't feel like so much of a limitation. I mean, I was playing against Perdita, so they weren't applying too many of their own conditions, but it felt powerful enough to have Pandora able to strip their Focus as I pleased. I'm assuming that Pandora's Misery pings on any condition just like her Opportunist? The wording seems to make it work like that. Anyway, the long and short is, the crew feels like it has much more intermodel synergy. Pandora feels more like a Master. I wouldn't mind Pandora and Candy having engagement ranges, but I'll live without it.

That's how I read it.
Glad you liked playing Pandora! I've read the re-worked models about 5 times now and I really can't wait to see her on the table. She has that amazing fresh, inter-crew synergy M3e stamp that Forgotten have now, as @Neverbear mentioned.

This is the kind of stuff that really makes M3e stand out in my opinion.

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3 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

That's how I read it.
Glad you liked playing Pandora! I've read the re-worked models about 5 times now and I really can't wait to see her on the table. She has that amazing fresh, inter-crew synergy M3e stamp that Forgotten have now, as @Neverbear mentioned.

This is the kind of stuff that really makes M3e stand out in my opinion.

I'm not really seeing anymore synergy... Even calling this a rework seems dishonest, they reworked (sorta) Pandora herself and the only things they changed for the rest of her crew was making Opportunist work on less things and making Misery godawful.

It seems the design team went through all of Pandora's models and assigned an arbitrary condition to be their Opportunist condition and then called it a rework.

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A lot of people here disregard how powerful it is to strip a condition on any model you like offensively to give your master a + to the duel... (some thankfully acknowledges this as well), this is still really good against a lot of crews out there, but at least it is not every single model the crew can do this against... can't say whether this is the right place or not anymore on paper, so needs testing and look forward to playing her.

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And the Stat 7 auto-slow lures with Kade giving himself fast through despair's influence. That's so good in terms of action economy! So many more opportunities for pounce! 

I mean, the tech was there, but you never got pounce outside of the lure (which took manipulative away) or the lucky mass hysteria.

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2 hours ago, Saduhem said:

That Crushed Ego trigger. So juicy..

Do I understand it correctly that you now can use triggers based on your card draw as well? So, if you get a crow on a model with execute, this trigger goes off (or a ram in the case your opponent gets a crow)

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3 minutes ago, Kapten said:

Do I understand it correctly that you now can use triggers based on your card draw as well? So, if you get a crow on a model with execute, this trigger goes off (or a ram in the case your opponent gets a crow)

Nope, the suit has to be in the target's duel total.

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2 minutes ago, Barmution said:

Nope, the suit has to be in the target's duel total.

"Chose one of the target's non-Shockwave Attack Actions. This Action's effect is the effect of the chosen Action." There is nothing there that states not declaring triggers... but, yeah, since she has her own triggers it is a bit confusing. Earlier it read "Target suffers the effects of the chosen Action (but not its Triggers) as if this model had taken the chosen Action against the target, with the same accuracy modifier as detrmined by the result of this duel" - so, no reference to not declaring triggers anymore

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1 minute ago, Kapten said:

"Chose one of the target's non-Shockwave Attack Actions. This Action's effect is the effect of the chosen Action." There is nothing there that states not declaring triggers... but, yeah, since she has her own triggers it is a bit confusing. Earlier it read "Target suffers the effects of the chosen Action (but not its Triggers) as if this model had taken the chosen Action against the target, with the same accuracy modifier as detrmined by the result of this duel" - so, no reference to not declaring triggers anymore

Ah, good point. I'm pretty sure that the new wording is there avoid you from being unable to declare the triggers via Crushed Ego but not meant to imply that you get access to the triggers by regular means. I'd be happy to be wrong, tho. In any case it needs a clarification.

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