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Granty1982

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Hiya folks! Im a pretty experienced tournament player in the UK meta (currently 4th best resser player) and ive played a few m3e games now. id like to bounce some ideas im having on you folks and hopefully get some constructive feedback. Firstly id like to say im loving 3e, despite bete and sybelle feeling woefully weak. Im yet to loose but im playing relatively inexperienced players or people that are learning just like me. The current crew im running is as follows;

 

Molly 

Necrotic Machine

Rabble Rouser

Forgotten Marshall

Asura Roten

Seamus

Copycat Killer or Crooligan

 

The crew functions well with molly adding fantastic defencive capability and card draw whilst seamus floats about killing things. Asuras significant zombies are great for scoring points and the marshall churns out punks to hold battle line. I started with pure redchapel but found it quite lack lustre. The crew seems to be fine of all strats and most schemes but im really struggling with the speed in which ressers die. Summoning still seems quite powerful and providing im willing to accept I will never go first, its fairly game winning.

 

The issues im having are mostly around survivability and WTF the necrotic machine should be doing most of the time. Im pretty sure Molly should also be doing more than removing 2 markers for 4 cards and reactivating a punk but thats all i seem to do with her. 

 

Suggestions and experiences are MORE than welcome and appreciated at this point folks, lets get some debate going!

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9 minutes ago, Granty1982 said:

Hiya folks! Im a pretty experienced tournament player in the UK meta (currently 4th best resser player) and ive played a few m3e games now. id like to bounce some ideas im having on you folks and hopefully get some constructive feedback. Firstly id like to say im loving 3e, despite bete and sybelle feeling woefully weak. Im yet to loose but im playing relatively inexperienced players or people that are learning just like me. The current crew im running is as follows;

 

Molly 

Necrotic Machine

Rabble Rouser

Forgotten Marshall

Asura Roten

Seamus

Copycat Killer or Crooligan

 

The crew functions well with molly adding fantastic defencive capability and card draw whilst seamus floats about killing things. Asuras significant zombies are great for scoring points and the marshall churns out punks to hold battle line. I started with pure redchapel but found it quite lack lustre. The crew seems to be fine of all strats and most schemes but im really struggling with the speed in which ressers die. Summoning still seems quite powerful and providing im willing to accept I will never go first, its fairly game winning.

 

The issues im having are mostly around survivability and WTF the necrotic machine should be doing most of the time. Im pretty sure Molly should also be doing more than removing 2 markers for 4 cards and reactivating a punk but thats all i seem to do with her. 

 

Suggestions and experiences are MORE than welcome and appreciated at this point folks, lets get some debate going!

Your Necrotic machine is just probably going to sit by the side of the Forgotten Marshal healing your future Rabble Risers and using accomplice into them to give them the extra focus through their Fading Ability.

Your list is my biggest fear for the faction come true! Specifically having Seamus and Asura as our best scheme runners and barely using any theme because... well nothing really is that efficient. Asura could probably shine in this list too as you're not really using stones for anything else. Molly and Seamus are not particularly suit hungry unless you need the Draw Out Secrets or Reparations triggers. 

The best, and worse, part of this list is that you really never have to interact with your opponent. 

There are a few crews that, especially in theme, couldn't possibly deal with this list. If the opponent doesn't kill Seamus fast, there's no stopping you from scoring anything you want between him and Asura (I've used the Crooligan with Seamus myself, and it's dirty!). 

This is one of those cases in which I'd bring all the Injured I could get my hands on against this (And that's saying a lot because I don't particularly like how the condition interacts with low stat models and that it affects both the duels against it and the model's entire activation).

Overall, your list looks scaaaaaaaaaaaaary!

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Seamus really needs to have cause for Celebration become leader only. I love Seamus. I want him to be good this edition. I don’t however want him to become this edition’s Nekima, never leading his crews and always brought along for muscle.

Agree that Bete and Sybelle really need some love! Please don’t let Sybelle be awful in this edition too!

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Yes I agree with @Saduhem with regards to moving away from themed lists. I really tried to play pure Redchaple but found it really uninspiring. Ive tried to stick to fluff by using Seamus and Molly (afterall Seamus did kill her) with the exception being Asura who is too goo to pass up! Significant mindless zombies have the ability to really infuriate opponents and score points at a rapid rate. from what ive tested scheme runner wise, there is nothing that stands out and yes, Seamus seems to be becoming the factions new nekima.

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1 hour ago, Granty1982 said:

Molly 

Necrotic Machine

Rabble Rouser

Forgotten Marshall

Asura Roten

Seamus

Copycat Killer or Crooligan

I can't to put into words my sadness about how in this edition Seamus became the "best errand boy". I can tolerate everything, but when I see rosters, where Molly is the Master with Seamus (her creator) as Enforser (literally), I feel hopeless... Of course this list is effective, but I cannot force myself to take my favourite Master to run errands for someone.

58 minutes ago, Granty1982 said:

P.s, If Sexy Wyrd folks see this, for the love of the grave spirit show Bete and Sybelle some love soon

Do not think that I want to offend someone, but when the closed beta test was going on, everything that Mason did with Seamus were strange, not affecting anything changes or even nerfs. Sybelle always was awful for 10ss, Bete was confusing with her immortality. Beth was a great model when she had a Blood marker mechanic, in my opinion. Yeah, she was pretty immortal vs normal attacks (still dies from shockwaves, burning, poison, hazardous trait, blasts and etc), but she just worked out her value and attracted the particular attention of the opponent. There still a lot models that doing similar stuff with different ways: Agent 46 (really, he can be immortal too but way more dangerous), Hannah Lovelace, Stitched Together (as summons they are just too deadly and valuable) and so on.

With @matt and @Kyle on the scene, I just could not believe it when I saw the rework of Seamus. They gave him a very strong, thematic and unique bonus action (feels like irst edition reference), partially returned to the crew models Wp-mechanics, resolved issues with the mechanics which simply does not work (Wait for it..., Lie in Wait, Feast of Fear and etc). Mourners never felt part of the crew, had Forgotten keyword with "Fading Memories" and it was the best of their abiities (positive flip, you know) in my opinion, they'are always feels out of crew for me and never worth their cost. Now they're have Revenant keyword and feels far more reiable. With last updates Bete was tuned down and, honestly, become piece of s... something. I totally understand why it was done but I personally feel sad that old story repeated for the third time:

1. Here's Bete, she's a MONSTER! She's scary great undead model with a 3 different awesome great-looking models.

2. Well, seems like she's too good, many players complains about her presence on the table, lets nerf her slightly.

3. Well, she's garbage as ressurs players complains. Perhaps a small changes in the cost or stats helps?

And Bete remains a strange, uncomfortable to play model for the entire edition... Don't get me wrong, I had great games in the second edition wis her, but it was an exceptions in which I forced myself to take her to the crew.

I have problems in order to offer something from myself, because I always suggested something during a closed beta test and it seems always remained unheard. Something seemed to be heard in relation to Albus Von Schtook but never in relation to Seamus. So maybe I just asked too much.

So I pin my hopes on the work of Matt and Kyle (without flattery). With their coming to the fore a huge amount of fantstic changes have occurred that literally brought me back to the game. Malifaux began to feel like Malifaux again.

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Red Chapel is getting better, but there just still doesn’t seem to be much cohesion. I really like the Scarlet Temptation ability. I like that they seem to be heading in a cohesive direction, in that the the Belles and Doxies engage things and tie them up and then the killers in the crew come in and get bonuses for attacking models engaged with his keyword models.

But I still think the crew as a whole falls down. There is too much focus on distracted and unexpected ferocity with no reliable way to apply  it or get the triggers, and that’s if your models aren’t stunned six ways to Tuesday.

Sybelle isn’t worth 10stones. I’m not going to spend ten stones on a dmg dealing model whose dmg track is absolutely dependent on not being stunned and if she is she’s less useful than a 6ss model.  2/2/3 is just wretched. I mean I realize that it’s an attack that Queeg and Lilitu have, so the track won’t change, but I’d either give her a new attack called bleeder lash, or give her the ability to always declare triggers with it.

Her other abilities also all require activation order, or other models to be operating close to her and doing other things. I mean if you look at the other largely agreed upon good high cost models they just work and do their job, and don’t need to have specific model combinations working in particular ways to achieve value. They are good on their own and might get extra value out of specific set up.

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Sorry, forgot to mention Rotten Belles and Doxies. They're hardly sucks. They are difficult to compare with other models for 5 stones (and It is impossible to compare them with theirselves in the second edition). They are very much in need of baked in Mask on Lures and Seduction (and maybe some other Attack actions). Distracted condition already cleaned with the assist, not to mention posibility of the condition removal. When "The Whisper" gave Adaptive, the Doxies were just great, and yet their value increased to as much as 9ss. I hope you understand what I am trying to say, my knowledge of the language seems to me to be insufficient to express the thought correctly. Sorry for that.

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13 minutes ago, NotSoEmpty said:

Do not think that I want to offend someone, but when the closed beta test was going on, everything that Mason did with Seamus were strange, not affecting anything changes or even nerfs.

Everything was strange. Unfortunately I think that the new designers have a lot of stress to deal with because of the big mess left by him but thank god the new ones are just great. I wish he did not design my favorite crew to just make the game horrible for others (Pandora). For Seamus when I played against it the crew was ok but the master was maybe too good. Of course if I use that to say it’s balanced then it means it’s no longer balanced when he is hired by another master. Bete noire was everywhere on the map but she was not killing things. She was getting points turning all my turf markers all the time because she came out of every corpse marker Seamus made by killing my small models. She is good at that but I do not know if that is what she is supposed to do.

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53 minutes ago, Granty1982 said:

with the exception being Asura who is too goo to pass up!

Good I hate her so much... I was really hoping she wouldn't be in every list this edition, but I think she will. She is too good at what she does and now she's Versatile so there isn't even a small tax. 

This also adds to my fear that the only way to be competetive in M3E will be with multiple masters. I really didn't want that to happen...

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3 minutes ago, NotSoEmpty said:

Sorry, forgot to mention Rotten Belles and Doxies. They're hardly sucks. They are difficult to compare with other models for 5 stones (and It is impossible to compare them with theirselves in the second edition). They are very much in need of baked in Mask on Lures and Seduction (and maybe some other Attack actions). Distracted condition already cleaned with the assist, not to mention posibility of the condition removal. When "The Whisper" gave Adaptive, the Doxies were just great, and yet their value increased to as much as 9ss. I hope you understand what I am trying to say, my knowledge of the language seems to me to be insufficient to express the thought correctly. Sorry for that.

I'm one of the few guys that really likes the belles. The doxies jusy don't have a job, and they are mediocre at everything they attempt to do.

Auto distracted on attack actions would be too good, especially on a 5 stone model that can lure you, can't be charged, takes a lot of actions to put down, and gets you sniped by the mourner's feed on grief while you're on -flips and gets the fast condition for doing its job. Their melee is awful, but there is only so much you can get for 5 stones. 

But that's me, I like models that for a small cost do one job and do it well. In th case of the Belles, it's luring a lot (reliably getting 3 actions per turn for me) and surviving a lot. And if you really want to get distracted on things, using doxies and dandies against models lured by a belle is the way to go.

Sybelle I like because she makes the lure bubble better, but is currently 1-2 stones above what other comparable models cost.

Bete is good, but as a scheme runner after something hits her for severe damage. She's a fast moving harasser before that. Not a killer. But if she could kill more with that mobility in a crew where Seamus is killing the low cost models every turn, it might just make it too hard to play against the crew.

Coming out of a corpse marker with 3 actions and Mv 6 is really good.

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12 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Good I hate her so much... I was really hoping she wouldn't be in every list this edition, but I think she will. She is too good at what she does and now she's Versatile so there isn't even a small tax. 

This also adds to my fear that the only way to be competetive in M3E will be with multiple masters. I really didn't want that to happen...

I don't want that either.

That said, the problem is also partially due to the fact that in 2e you always just picked the best scheme runners in you faction due to the all stars approach. Right now some crews are so centered around the theme (and I actually like that) that they don't have in-keyword options to just go around playing the schemes because you need too many models to play your thematic mini game (which i love doing).

That's partially the reason I keep harping about tormented so much. Your only true scheme runner is a 9 stone model + 2 for upgrade and 4-6 stones per game on stones and prevention and triggers. He's also eating up my Master's actions.

Why should I keep hiring in theme when I could have Seamus do more for a comparable cost? Or actually save stones and take Asura instead?

 

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3 hours ago, Saduhem said:

I'm one of the few guys that really likes the belles. The doxies jusy don't have a job, and they are mediocre at everything they attempt to do.

Auto distracted on attack actions would be too good, especially on a 5 stone model that can lure you, can't be charged, takes a lot of actions to put down, and gets you sniped by the mourner's feed on grief while you're on -flips and gets the fast condition for doing its job. Their melee is awful, but there is only so much you can get for 5 stones. 

But that's me, I like models that for a small cost do one job and do it well. In th case of the Belles, it's luring a lot (reliably getting 3 actions per turn for me) and surviving a lot. And if you really want to get distracted on things, using doxies and dandies against models lured by a belle is the way to go.

Sybelle I like because she makes the lure bubble better, but is currently 1-2 stones above what other comparable models cost.

Bete is good, but as a scheme runner after something hits her for severe damage. She's a fast moving harasser before that. Not a killer. But if she could kill more with that mobility in a crew where Seamus is killing the low cost models every turn, it might just make it too hard to play against the crew.

Coming out of a corpse marker with 3 actions and Mv 6 is really good.

Baked Distracted is too good??? Well, just compare this with Nellie or Collette. They both puts distracted like for free and this is even not their core mechanic! Seamus’s girls need Distracted for damage output and survival, Distracted is a core if you want play for fully thematic Seamus crew.

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I'm surprised you feel the need to run additional scheme runners with Forgotten Grant. Night terrors and specifically summoned night terrors are excellent scheme runners. Able to move really far through pushes and activate a 2nd time. 

Don't get me wrong Seamus is a great scheme runner and excellent addition to a crew in certain pools but I think forgotten can manage it perfectly well on their own and benefit from the additional starting models.

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I don’t think he owns any. He avoided Kirai like the plague and probably associated them with her. 

 

I agree on not needing the scheme runners. The night terrors are incredible.

I think he’s back doored a Seamus crew he liked. Because he realised he didn’t like core Redchapel. And he liked Asura with Seamus. 

 

But it highlights a problem that Seamus and elements of his crew are better in other crews than in their own. And Asura seems bloody good in any crew. 

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I think this edition of the game will be defined by the ability to hire extra masters into your crew. Masters are by default more powerful than every other hire in your pool, but some require significant list investment to make the most of them. 

The masters that operate mostly independently like Seamus and Lady J are just going to be good wherever you put them, so they make more sense being used to augment other crews. 

 My question is: does the ability to hire other masters actually improve the game in any significant way? Because it looks like it will just homogenise lists across the game to look like the one in this thread. I'm of the opinion that we dont need to be able to do it. 

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My opinion is that dual masters will be used alot. But not at the top end of the game

People will realise they don't have the resources to protect multiple masters and that 4- 6 actions that those SS could buy coupled with the synergy in keyword are better 

Some options like Seamus and Lady J as you've said are better than others. But I don't think it's going to be the optimal way to play.

I also would be surprised or disappointed to see it removed from competitive play via gaining grounds but if it's not I don't think it's going to cause any real issues. But we will see. Not sure we've seen enough to really know yet

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4 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

I'm surprised you feel the need to run additional scheme runners with Forgotten Grant. Night terrors and specifically summoned night terrors are excellent scheme runners. Able to move really far through pushes and activate a 2nd time. 

Don't get me wrong Seamus is a great scheme runner and excellent addition to a crew in certain pools but I think forgotten can manage it perfectly well on their own and benefit from the additional starting models.

Forgotten have incredible scheming potential. It's their most incredible strength. That said, that list seems very hard to stop.

I'm not sure whether or not it's better than going full Forgotten, but I certainly hope this kind of Meta lists don't become the most effective way to play.

To the OP, please let us know how it goes!

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6 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

I'm surprised you feel the need to run additional scheme runners with Forgotten Grant. Night terrors and specifically summoned night terrors are excellent scheme runners. Able to move really far through pushes and activate a 2nd time. 

Don't get me wrong Seamus is a great scheme runner and excellent addition to a crew in certain pools but I think forgotten can manage it perfectly well on their own and benefit from the additional starting models.

I was hoping you would jump on this Jay as im really interested in what you Wyrds have been testing. To clarify, im not using Seamus as a scheme runner in the most part, more as a mobile assassin. Ive used him for power ritual etc, simply because it made it easy but that was more towards turns 4 and 5. Schemes that require dropping markers etc I essentially use the mindless zombies as like a previous post stated, Seamus and Molly are not really stone hungry which allows me to burn stones on cards and Asuras apocalypse.

I dont currently own any night terrors as ive simply never had a use for them but its payday on friday 😉

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4 hours ago, Metalhed said:

I don’t think he owns any. He avoided Kirai like the plague and probably associated them with her. 

 

I agree on not needing the scheme runners. The night terrors are incredible.

I think he’s back doored a Seamus crew he liked. Because he realised he didn’t like core Redchapel. And he liked Asura with Seamus. 

 

But it highlights a problem that Seamus and elements of his crew are better in other crews than in their own. And Asura seems bloody good in any crew. 

Correct.

Ideally id love to be competative with a pure Redchaple crew but unless Bete and Sybelle get some love that wont be happening.

Ive tried using Archie, Dead Rider and Grave Golem as big scary beaters but quite frankly nothing compares to Seamus and its well worth the investment.

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2 hours ago, Saduhem said:

Forgotten have incredible scheming potential. It's their most incredible strength. That said, that list seems very hard to stop.

I'm not sure whether or not it's better than going full Forgotten, but I certainly hope this kind of Meta lists don't become the most effective way to play.

To the OP, please let us know how it goes!

Im playing against Titania tonight, ill let you know heh!

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So I was talking with a friend last night and just as a random idea I don’t even know how I feel about, what if they extended the divison they seem to already have and took scarlet temptation off Sybelle and Bete, and gave them both Red Chapel Killer. The idea being Red Chapel low cost minions tie you up and make targeting the higher cost models problematic, and high cost beaters get really scary if they gang up on you.

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2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

So I was talking with a friend last night and just as a random idea I don’t even know how I feel about, what if they extended the divison they seem to already have and took scarlet temptation off Sybelle and Bete, and gave them both Red Chapel Killer. The idea being Red Chapel low cost minions tie you up and make targeting the higher cost models problematic, and high cost beaters get really scary if they gang up on you.

I think the crew would improve immediately just for that single change. Sybelle can get more reliable triggers and use projected voice without having to worry about engagement. Bete still wouldn't be a heavy hitter, but more likely to pick her preferred trigger and crazy accurate.

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50 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

I think the crew would improve immediately just for that single change. Sybelle can get more reliable triggers and use projected voice without having to worry about engagement. Bete still wouldn't be a heavy hitter, but more likely to pick her preferred trigger and crazy accurate.

Thematically it makes sense. From what I can tell, Seamus always used his Belles as distraction pieces mostly and did the killing himself.

I think mechanically it works out great for the simplicity of the idea.

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Any other thoughts? I’m not sure how I personally feel about the idea for various reasons, but I’d love to have other perspectives on it. Too good, too weak, dilutes theme since scarlet temptation and red chapel killer become the binary red chapel ability? Any other perspectives on what’s wrong, if anything, with the crew as a whole since i think Seamus is pretty close with a few little tweaks to potentially file him down so he is still great leading a crew but isn’t the de facto hire like nekima was.

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