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Saduhem

Guilty... again! 2.6

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So, I'm really liking the new upgrade on death mechanic.

Look at this guy's card. It's just ridiculous. A 5 stone model packed with good attacks and stacks. 

Except.. your crew doesn't need them.

We have 3 minions that currently try to all be the same thing. They have a melee presence, they have an interesting non-projectile attack, and they're all particularly terrible at running schemes. 
With the Drowned gaining Riptide and having a very bizarre combination of melee defensive tech, it looks like its about to be the tarpit of the crew.

The Guilty has a bunch of conditional stuff that benefits from models having upgrades/staggered, but they need the upgrade to already be present to give out staggered themselves. It takes a couple of turns to get the Staggered going on the enemy crew, and the Crooked men/Drowned are much better at it. 

Why do I keep hiring Guilty? Because I want the hand size increase. 

So you get this weird model that you pay 5 stones for, who looks like a tiny tank, but you want it to die fast. He also eats up Jack's actions to move about and, if you want to fling it with Jack, you're detaching cursed Upgrades, which also means that whatever you threw this at may no longer be staggered next turn. Or Jack has to dedicate an additional action to reattach it. It's a bit of a synergy mess. 

When he dies, you finally get what you hired him for. An enemy model now has an upgrade they don't want, your crew is better against it, and you have +1 hand size. 
Then he comes back... no. He doesn't. I've played this crew so many times now. He just doesn't. It's a game where minions are incredible and conditions are everywhere. He just doesn't. 


Yes, this is going to appear crazy because, on paper, he looks like a discard forcing machine. What I really want is for him to die, fast.

Since we already have models that pretty much do what this guy does but... better... and those other models actually help the staggering ropes spread around, can this guy just be something Jack throws at enemies so it dies?

Not a pseudo tank, but a very cheap model who gives out the upgrade it does now (with plentiful 2 probably), and just... dies? Over and over?
These are guilty, right? They're supposed to be punished, and punished, and punished. Why not just curse them to die?

Tormented have mandatory expensive hires, and the Hanged are amazing as long as you chunk stones at them. Tormented are crying out for a cheap significant model to go around and flip those annoying Idols and turf markers. Currently it's mostly Jack doing all that. Jack has the responsibility of running schemes, killing things, and moving your models around. Take some weight off this poor ghost's shoulders.

The Guilty look like the dream 5 stone model, but the crew doesn't need all he offers.

I'd get huge value out of this guy if the only things he offered were:

-Same upgrade as now when he dies
-Is significant
-Dies fast
- Actually, really, does have a way to come back, hopefully around the board, forcing things to go kill him again or let him scheme. 

It's also one of the coolest models in the range, and Iconic for the crew. But you're never going to hire two of these guys as they currently are. Your crew depends on spreading upgrades and staggered, others do it better. 
Can we have super cheap models that are gluttons for punishment? Have them just be annoying chaff that Jack flings with his punishment trigger? Dropping the tankiness and the chance of forcing discards?
I doubt people are going to pay the out-of-keyword tax for a delayed arcane reservoir that doesn't synergize outside of tormented, so that shouldn't really be a problem.

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I can understand why you have a problem with them, but they really do provide a lot of value. I also generally hate the idea of models that literally can't be killed (the original demise(eternal) was so annoying to play against and I'm glad they toned it down a bit). For a 5ss model in 3e they do a lot and they dictate how your opponent has to kill them. The opponent needs a condition to kill them for the optimal kill, a minion for a worse outcome, and anything besides that gives the person playing the guilty so much value. 

Limiting the opponent and not letting them play around any loopholes just feels like not giving your opponent any decisions. Reworking them to help the crew more is fine, but I disagree with making them always come back with nothing for the opponent to exploit. Giving your opponent the "choice" of letting your model scheme and score points or wasting ap and cards to kill it only for it to come back and scheme anyways doesn't seem like much of a choice. This on top of the fact that it also has decent stats and actions (plus arcane reservoir on the curse which is definitely worth 1 or 2 stones). 

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How have you been using these models in practice compared to its slightly more expensive cousins?

I can't seem to find examples where they really contribute to anything in battle reports. They just have this very great card and nothing to do with it.

There's nothing in the crew outside of your Hanged and Daw that can reach markers and reliably help with schemes, and currently you get most of your benefit when these guys actually die. The crew is slow and elite.

A 2-3 turn delayed arcane reservoire is definitely not worth the 1-2 stone tax you mention.

The crew needs something significant that can move around, without giving up the hand size. The rest has been superfluous every time.

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Just throwing out a quick suggestion in place of the current Condemned upgrade, I’d like to see the Guilty give out an aura or something that gives Tormented to enemies whilst they are within 3”(?) - that way they are trying to keep close to enemy models, harassing them.

Don’t know if it would work or not, but it seems a bit “cleaner” in terms of rules - Attaching deliberating Upgrades to enemies seems a bit clunky to me (but then again, I’m no games designer!).

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I actually really like the Guilty in their current form. Having just faced them, they have a recklessness that I am forced to deal with. Let them live and they earn VP, or just become general annoyances. Kill them and it's giving more resources the master who relies solely on cards to survive - or they end up coming back anyways which devalues my AP that I put into them (of which they are no slouches defense wise).

I like how different they are than 90% of any other 5ss model in the game currently. It feels fresh when faced with this new mechanic

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Currently this is what happens every time I play Jack Daw.

have  to hire:
-----------------------
The Whisper on Jack Daw (2)
Montresor (9)
Hanged + Upgrade (11) - Sometimes two of these guys!
Crooked Man (7)
At least 6 stones in my Cache (Pretty much everything you score is going to come from On Your Heels, and Draw Out Secrets)

That's 35 Stones that I just have not been able to have the crew work without.
------------------------------
Then, you get a choice:

Jaakuna because you need  people to stay around Montresor.

If not, you take another Crooked Man because Jack is not realistically applying staggered to anything until the beginning of turn 3, and you need Earthquake and Montresor to hit.

If not, you bring the Dead Outlaw (which is still pretty bad) simply because he can use the scheme marker from the Crooked man's bonus action to give one more action to Montresor as his position is the most important element of this crew.

It looks like, maybe, the drowned can help in that slot now that they have the chance of putting staggered in an area and grouping enemies up. 
--------------------------------
I'm now on average at 42 stones of nothing but cogs in my staggered machine (assuming I only took 2 Upgrades, and 1 Hanged). Perhaps the exception is going to be the Hanged, who most of the time is scoring me Detonate the Charges, Deliver the Message, and Take Prisoner. So this guys is getting points on top of that. 

I have 8 stones in a really expensive crew and the only model that can actually run schemes is the Hanged. If that guy dies, you're toast. Seriously, your crew is awful at scoring anything. As an Outcast you can look at the Midnight stalker, an a resurrectionist I'm not sure. 

Seriously, who is running my schemes? How many models do I invest in the staggered machine? 

The Guilty have no movement tech and rely on Jack giving out his actions to get them anywhere (And Jack is already trying to get the Mv4 dudes and Montresor up front because auras and ranged attacks are no good sitting 8 inches from your deployment zone).
All the while, you really want them to just go ahead and die. You really want that +1 Hand size as soon as you can, but you're paying 5 stones for it and hoping your opponent kills it, and very, very hopefully with a non-minion or condition (and that just doesn't happen anymore).
All the while, you're trying to get them killed but they like to act like pseudo tanks that are built to die on turn 3. 
These guys need to pick one job and do it.

This crew desperately needs something cheap that can go and flip things. Eventually I expect people to hire out-of-keyword dedicated scheme runners and, once again, not see these guys for another edition. I wanted the Midnight Stalker or the Necropunk every game (which would be a heck of a lot better with the Dead Outlaw too), but I keep picking these guys  because people say they're alright while I just can't get them to do anything but add bloat to the big ball of staggered I'm spending all game trying to keep. 
-----------------------------

Now, I accept that maybe I'm just either unlucky or have been playing the crew very poorly. I don't know. But I'm glad to see people getting good used out of the model. 
I'll keep testing the crew!

Since I have played this crew a lot and still haven't seen these guys shine, can anyone recommend a specific way of making them do so?

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I agree with what to be said about mandatory hires and some of what you've said about guilty 

However I must say they are an essential part of Jack's survival mechanic forcing the card discards so terrifying can be a protection against some hits for Jack. I always try to find a way to include at least 2 of them because otherwise I find Jack takes too many hits and just dies 

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17 minutes ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

I agree with what to be said about mandatory hires and some of what you've said about guilty 

However I must say they are an essential part of Jack's survival mechanic forcing the card discards so terrifying can be a protection against some hits for Jack. I always try to find a way to include at least 2 of them because otherwise I find Jack takes too many hits and just dies 

What's doing the scheme running for you?
What are you usually leaving home? Dead Outlaws don't count :}

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Double post again. The following is from the comment section of one of my battle reports. This is specifically about Punishment and action economy.

@Flippin' Wyrd Jamie, do you have any opinion on it?

-----------------

Jack Daw: I’d print this guy out as is. He can play a supporting role or a beater. Unfortunately due to lack of specialization across the crew, he is also pretty much forced to go flipping markers around.

There is a single change I would love to see on his card. His Punishment trigger should not require discarding of upgrades.
The crew currently only works when several conditions are met and, when they are, the crew is pretty scary. Currently Jack doesn’t have enough actions to get it all done. His Punishment trigger was a great addition to his card to get his slow crawly crew engaged, but then he’s not putting out upgrades, which means the guilty aren’t really effective, and he’s not drawing cards.
This usually leads to attacking the same model twice to get a minion there and an upgrade on the target so that the target is staggered the following turn.
It’s waaay too much setup.
Currently the Hanged can give out a lot of victory points if you chunk stones at it. If jack could throw them without removing an upgrade, the action economy of the whole crew would work so much more smoothly and you’re solving the other issue of having to stone for Masks on the Hanged to get them anywhere meaningful.

Tl;Dr: Taking the “discard an upgrade” clause from punishment would remove the biggest clunk from Jacks staggered/upgrade machine. And for the love of every Tyrant out there, do not ever remove the built in crow!

For the rest, print this guy.

---------------------------

Do you think it could address the crew mobility a bit?

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Having not a ton of experience with Jack I might be spouting non sense here. While I do agree that his crew seems to be lacking a good dedicated scheme runner. I also think that it's not entirely needed for Jack. Just based on how he operates by spamming lots of staggered, card drain and decent damage output. He's a really good anti scheme crew. So while it might be tough grabbing certain VP, it's also going to be tough for the opponent as they get bogged down trying to deal with Jacks shut down shenanigans. At least that has been my limited experience with him so far

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18 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Having not a ton of experience with Jack I might be spouting non sense here. While I do agree that his crew seems to be lacking a good dedicated scheme runner. I also think that it's not entirely needed for Jack. Just based on how he operates by spamming lots of staggered, card drain and decent damage output. He's a really good anti scheme crew. So while it might be tough grabbing certain VP, it's also going to be tough for the opponent as they get bogged down trying to deal with Jacks shut down shenanigans. At least that has been my limited experience with him so far

That's somewhat been the case for me too. But fast crews run loops around me and I can't keep up with turf markers and Idols. Whenever one of my previously flipped turf markers goes neutral, it's pretty much gone.

Staggered doesn't reach models with enhanced mobility, and those guys are going to flip/drop markers with or without a hand. Dealing with "Fly with me", Leap,  and the Bandersnatch/Weaver marker hopping duo has been a lost cause, especially when it takes so long to set up your stagger bubble and half your crew is Mv 4. 

Tormented don't have fast models or scheme denial tech. They have this area of "you die in here", while the hanged gets to turn stones into suits to get you Detonate the charges/Take prisoner.

If something is out of your Punishment  reach, you're not getting to it while your crew is either engaged or walking 4 inches at a time.

We also have way too many models with overlapping roles, and not a single one that can help with those issues.

I hire in theme for playtesting purposes but honestly, with the ridiculous amount of stones I throw at Hanged to get scheme markers on the board, Seamus and/or Asura Roten are going to be what I really hire. There just isn't enough in theme. 

That's why, at least, I'd like to see that upgrade discard requirement on Punishment leave Jack's card. Using two actions from your master to throw a minion at something and then attach an upgrade to the same model exacerbates the amount of setup you need to do for everything in this crew. At that point you could have just killed the target. Every action taken to play your theme minigame is an action you're not putting towards scoring points.

 

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6 hours ago, Saduhem said:

Double post again. The following is from the comment section of one of my battle reports. This is specifically about Punishment and action economy.

@Flippin' Wyrd Jamie, do you have any opinion on it?

-----------------

Jack Daw: I’d print this guy out as is. He can play a supporting role or a beater. Unfortunately due to lack of specialization across the crew, he is also pretty much forced to go flipping markers around.

There is a single change I would love to see on his card. His Punishment trigger should not require discarding of upgrades.
The crew currently only works when several conditions are met and, when they are, the crew is pretty scary. Currently Jack doesn’t have enough actions to get it all done. His Punishment trigger was a great addition to his card to get his slow crawly crew engaged, but then he’s not putting out upgrades, which means the guilty aren’t really effective, and he’s not drawing cards.
This usually leads to attacking the same model twice to get a minion there and an upgrade on the target so that the target is staggered the following turn.
It’s waaay too much setup.
Currently the Hanged can give out a lot of victory points if you chunk stones at it. If jack could throw them without removing an upgrade, the action economy of the whole crew would work so much more smoothly and you’re solving the other issue of having to stone for Masks on the Hanged to get them anywhere meaningful.

Tl;Dr: Taking the “discard an upgrade” clause from punishment would remove the biggest clunk from Jacks staggered/upgrade machine. And for the love of every Tyrant out there, do not ever remove the built in crow!

For the rest, print this guy.

---------------------------

Do you think it could address the crew mobility a bit?

I definitely think it would help. Even if it became discard a card to have some sort of cost to it. It would help with the mobility alot. Although 3" is a pretty small area to have a tormented model in and if they are there they are likely already in a fairly good position 

 

6 hours ago, Saduhem said:

What's doing the scheme running for you?
What are you usually leaving home? Dead Outlaws don't count :}

I've taken Seamus with him once. A pair of necropunks a couple of times, but you really do lose something from the crew by taking out of keyword models. I've been leaving the hanged at home purely because of cost vs number of models economy. Although the hanged is excellent with Jack. I've sort of come to the conclusion you just can't really play a very effective tormented crew in a scheme heavy strat/ scheme pool

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4 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

I definitely think it would help. Even if it became discard a card to have some sort of cost to it. It would help with the mobility alot. Although 3" is a pretty small area to have a tormented model in and if they are there they are likely already in a fairly good position 

I was thiking the same. A card discard cost would be more fair, and at that point you could potentially even out the exchange by forcing discards with your guilty in position.

 

4 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

I've taken Seamus with him once. A pair of necropunks a couple of times, but you really do lose something from the crew by taking out of keyword models. I've been leaving the hanged at home purely because of cost vs number of models economy. Although the hanged is excellent with Jack. I've sort of come to the conclusion you just can't really play a very effective tormented crew in a scheme heavy strat/ scheme pool

I was afraid that was the case :(

Paying 11-16 stones on the Hanged has been the only in theme model that has been getting marker based-VP, but it hardly seems efficient and I'm betting a lot of money on this one horse. In the end, it just seems that I shouldn't be using the Hanged for what it's good at because the crew itself isn't good at it.

 

Really hoping to see the upgrade-discarding clause go, it would at least be more efficient to move things around without feeling that I'm just trying to patch mobility issues through my master's actions all the time.

Thanks for your insight!

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Why do people keep saying Guilty are slow?  Mv5 is not slow, it’s just average. They were Wk4 in the previous edition, so maybe it’s just in people’s head that they are slow. 

Hanged are slow at Mv4 but they have place triggers on ranged attacks, and can use souls stones. 

Jack has a free action which moves any tormented 6”. 

Montresor has a pseudo Obey. 

Drowned...ok, they are just slow.  But the crew as a whole does not have a mobility problem. 

I personally think Guilty are very under priced. They are quite tanks for 5 SS, but forcing discard is the actual point of their card.  The only mechanic more powerful than card advantage in this game is AP advantage. They have 3 discard attacks and get to draw a card.  This means you are getting up to +4 card advantage from a 5 SS model. It’s still +2 card advantage if you only hit once. 

Most people in the Beta seem to think they are bad, apparently because they are not scheme runners.  And maybe the crew needs a scheme runner.  I won’t argue against that.

Great, strip off that discard from their melee attack, give them a trigger to drop scheme markers on enemies with upgrades, and make them Df5 incorporeal instead of Df6 hard to wound. Now you have a scheme runner that can be killed (which apparently you want) and I don’t have to play the entire game without any cards. 

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1 hour ago, Yajnho said:

Great, strip off that discard from their melee attack, give them a trigger to drop scheme markers on enemies with upgrades, and make them Df5 incorporeal instead of Df6 hard to wound. Now you have a scheme runner that can be killed (which apparently you want) and I don’t have to play the entire game without any cards. 

The card discard is an essential part of Jack's survival mechanic. He needs you to be failing at least some of the hits you're putting on him because of terrifying. 

I'm quite content with the guilty how they are currently and don't see a need for change. If tormented don't have a scheme runner in keyword then it is what it is. 

We can't take away an important part of what makes a 6 wd master viable without then having to rework him and I think he's in a good place overall as a keyword. 

He can be pretty hard work to play against the first couple of times but as an opponent you need to know your target priority and slam them in the right order for your crew.

Guilty are good value for 5ss but the second your opponent brings poison or burning they lose most of their value so I think it sits in a pretty balanced place overall 

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4 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

 

Guilty are good value for 5ss but the second your opponent brings poison or burning they lose most of their value so I think it sits in a pretty balanced place overall 

Once again, Most of their value is in discarding the opponent’s hand, not dying for the hand size.

No 5 SS model should be able to force discard of 50% of your hand. 

Also, with the proposed changes to conditions Guilty will count as killed by the model that put on the condition.  So getting around the demise mechanic becomes a lot more difficult. 

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The issue really isn't too much with the guilty but with the fact that the crew is starved for scheming/movement.

You can't really use Monty's obey until he is himself where he needs to be.

If we can get the discard upgrade clause off Jack's Punishment trigger, that's a good start. Having to the same action twice to have a minion in place and put an upgrade on the target just feels so wasteful when you could have just gone for the kill.

There's nothing really wrong with the guilty themselves, it's just that all of the scheme points come from the Hanged or, sometimes, Jaakuna. We also have 3 minions that are still trying to do variations of the same thing. When I set out to test Tormented, inevitably I look at the scheme pool and groan.

Can we just get their Bonus action to go from a discard to a push maybe?

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2 hours ago, Yajnho said:

Once again, Most of their value is in discarding the opponent’s hand, not dying for the hand size.

No 5 SS model should be able to force discard of 50% of your hand. 

Also, with the proposed changes to conditions Guilty will count as killed by the model that put on the condition.  So getting around the demise mechanic becomes a lot more difficult. 

I think you've mis-read the proposed condition change. Setting a model on fire and letting burning kill it does not give you the kill credit. If you make it take the burning damage during your action then you would gain the kill credit (at least that's what was proposed at the start, I'll admit there is a lot in that thread).  That said, if it did change in a way that the demise got better, you would expect the card to get worse some way.

 

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This thread seems to have focused on jack himself instead of guilty, but that said, I'm curious anyway. What's everyone think about the idea of giving Jackie boy entourage? Might have to drop whispers to have room, but would it be worthwhile?

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Just now, Bakuriel said:

This thread seems to have focused on jack himself instead of guilty, but that said, I'm curious anyway. What's everyone think about the idea of giving Jackie boy entourage? Might have to drop whispers to have room, but would it be worthwhile?

Anything to get that crew moving is welcome. It's a good crew, but there's a bit too much redundancy in what the minions do and it has a hard time scoring/denying mobility based schemes, and a lot of the other points rest on the shloulders of the Hanged and out of keyword hire.

Perhaps if flinging minions didn't force upgrade removal (which would also save stones as flinging Hanged is more efficient than stoning for masks all day, and guilty really want their target to have an upgrade) and we got any for of movement aid we'd be set.

Ligeia is pretty.. meh. Maybe she could help with that?

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3 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

Anything to get that crew moving is welcome. It's a good crew, but there's a bit too much redundancy in what the minions do and it has a hard time scoring/denying mobility based schemes, and a lot of the other points rest on the shloulders of the Hanged and out of keyword hire.

Perhaps if flinging minions didn't force upgrade removal (which would also save stones as flinging Hanged is more efficient than stoning for masks all day, and guilty really want their target to have an upgrade) and we got any for of movement aid we'd be set.

Ligeia is pretty.. meh. Maybe she could help with that?

I'm pretty iffy on the existence of that discard trigger myself. Maybe kill that and add entourage, and see how it plays out. 

 

Also considering how the guilty might work with You lookin' at me? instead of Feed on Grief. 

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1 hour ago, Bakuriel said:

I'm pretty iffy on the existence of that discard trigger myself. Maybe kill that and add entourage, and see how it plays out. 

 

Also considering how the guilty might work with You lookin' at me? instead of Feed on Grief. 

Ooohhh, that's interesting! Love your thinking!

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1 minute ago, Saduhem said:

Ooohhh, that's interesting! Love your thinking!

I like to think about problems from a mechanical and thematic angle. Tormented models tend to whisper unpleasant truths about their targets, which to me would make someone run to shut them up. Initially I'd been thinking of some way for guilty to hurt themselves to get their demise power, but in the process of looking at Lucius for entourage remembered the looking at me ability in Basse's crew. Feels like it would solve a lot of problems with one update. 

Just a small insight into the chaos that drives my thoughts. 

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4 hours ago, Bakuriel said:

Also considering how the guilty might work with You lookin' at me? instead of Feed on Grief.

That's crazy good. You opponent loses so much of the control over dealing with them. You just force a non-minion to kill them, you get to select which model gets the curse, and then assure that you get another guilty for free. It has been stated in this thread that the guilty feel like they have a good power level, I don't know why they would require the ability to do something that strong. They are only 5ss minions. 

 

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The conversation has moved a little more towards removing some of the clunks of the crew.

Guilty are really good cost effective models. The crew invests a lot of models into the staggered/upgrade sub-theme and is currently struggling with scheming.

With so many of the minions doing very similar jobs, I believe the suggestion was to diversify. 

The biggest clunk in the engine right now is the removal of upgrade clause on punishment. Changing that to any other cost would smooth the flow of the crew greatly, letting some of the resources and actions be dedicated to scoring points.

@Bakuriel had some really interesting Ideas. We're here to discuss feasibility of any of them. 

For example, if something he proposed, like entourage is too good, having Ligeia have a Vasilisa-like tormented only transport would probably reasonable. A smaller variation of what he proposed.

The crew feels 90% print ready to me after all the testing, with some clunks still jamming the machine here and there.

Let's build on each other's ideas instead of just shutting down conversations. 

I just really don't want anymore aggressive comments in every thread. The last few days have been overwhelmingly negative. We're cooperating to test and make this as enjoyable as possible for as many people as possible. 

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