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Saduhem

Guilty... again! 2.6

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1 hour ago, Alerteddonkey42 said:

That's crazy good. You opponent loses so much of the control over dealing with them. You just force a non-minion to kill them, you get to select which model gets the curse, and then assure that you get another guilty for free. It has been stated in this thread that the guilty feel like they have a good power level, I don't know why they would require the ability to do something that strong. They are only 5ss minions. 

 

As @Saduhem said, I'm making suggestions so they can be discussed in regards to balance and diversity. I get that the Guilty are fundamentally good models, but as they are now, are they good for Jack, or just good for 5 stones? Most of the complaints I've been hearing involve mobility and scheming. 

While I'm not against masters that do the scheming themselves, Jack has other things he needs to do most of the time, so it's apparently been falling to the Hanged, which seems grossly inefficient at the best of times. Nobody wants to change crooked men, drowned have improved recently, and the rest of the crew feel like they're mostly where they need to be. 

Guilty are the only models that feel unusual. They aren't bad, but they go in some weird directions. You want them to die, but they're not especially fast, and they have an attack action that can heal themselves, which is counterintuitive to being sacrificed. I've seen plenty of suggestions that it's so easy to prevent the resummon that it may as well not be there.

Since you bring up the issue of balance, the models can be adjusted if my idea comes around at all. You could add a stone and completely remove the resummon aspect of their demise and I'd still take them for the value they'd offer to my rather immobile crew. But that action isn't as straightforward as it sounds, as I'm pretty sure people forget you can cheat a low card out of your hand to fail the resulting attack on purpose. I'm just trying to foster discussion about where the guilty are currently, and whether they need something different to help the crew, or if we should just continue ham fistedly trying to fix an awkward mechanic. 

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3 minutes ago, Bakuriel said:

As @Saduhem said, I'm making suggestions so they can be discussed in regards to balance and diversity. I get that the Guilty are fundamentally good models, but as they are now, are they good for Jack, or just good for 5 stones? Most of the complaints I've been hearing involve mobility and scheming. 

While I'm not against masters that do the scheming themselves, Jack has other things he needs to do most of the time, so it's apparently been falling to the Hanged, which seems grossly inefficient at the best of times. Nobody wants to change crooked men, drowned have improved recently, and the rest of the crew feel like they're mostly where they need to be. 

Guilty are the only models that feel unusual. They aren't bad, but they go in some weird directions. You want them to die, but they're not especially fast, and they have an attack action that can heal themselves, which is counterintuitive to being sacrificed. I've seen plenty of suggestions that it's so easy to prevent the resummon that it may as well not be there.

Since you bring up the issue of balance, the models can be adjusted if my idea comes around at all. You could add a stone and completely remove the resummon aspect of their demise and I'd still take them for the value they'd offer to my rather immobile crew. But that action isn't as straightforward as it sounds, as I'm pretty sure people forget you can cheat a low card out of your hand to fail the resulting attack on purpose. I'm just trying to foster discussion about where the guilty are currently, and whether they need something different to help the crew, or if we should just continue ham fistedly trying to fix an awkward mechanic. 


I can totally see what @Flippin' Wyrd Jamie refers to when talking about the guilty enhancing the crew's terrifying through discards.  But you make an excellent point about their resummon aspect being something that doesn't really matter. I've been playing since CB and I still haven't exceeded the record of having them be resummoned more than twice ever since. When it did happen, they just kinda stayed out of the game as it takes 1-2 turns to get back. 

I think @Bakuriel nailed it with the issue being about the need of a bit more movement and all his proposals, balanced or not, focused on that aspect. I agree that, at the very least it's good for discussion. 

Although I don't think we're ever going to see it, the image of pulling tormented through ropes with something like "Entourage" or "Scoop Up" is pretty cool.

Anyway, if anything fails, at least please please please get that awful "discard an attached upgrade" clause from Punishment. It just prevents things from working together. Can we discard a card instead? That's pretty much health for Jack. 

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11 hours ago, Saduhem said:


I can totally see what @Flippin' Wyrd Jamie refers to when talking about the guilty enhancing the crew's terrifying through discards.  But you make an excellent point about their resummon aspect being something that doesn't really matter. I've been playing since CB and I still haven't exceeded the record of having them be resummoned more than twice ever since. When it did happen, they just kinda stayed out of the game as it takes 1-2 turns to get back. 

 

I don't think its a problem that the respawn clause is rarely triggered.  Not all abilities of models need to be utilized every game.  The threat of the respawn with make the opponent go out of their way to prevent, spending extra AP to apply conditions or spending Scheme running  minions to attack, rather than go for VP.

Sure, it will be rare that it will actually happen, but the threat of it occurring is enough to dictate plays to your opponent and disrupt their plan.  Their worth is in the value of the model as a whole, and their +1 card upon death.  The potential of respawn is just a cherry on top.

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16 minutes ago, Davos said:

I don't think its a problem that the respawn clause is rarely triggered.  Not all abilities of models need to be utilized every game.  The threat of the respawn with make the opponent go out of their way to prevent, spending extra AP to apply conditions or spending Scheme running  minions to attack, rather than go for VP.

Sure, it will be rare that it will actually happen, but the threat of it occurring is enough to dictate plays to your opponent and disrupt their plan.  Their worth is in the value of the model as a whole, and their +1 card upon death.  The potential of respawn is just a cherry on top.

It's more like, even if the model does get resummoned, I don't really care for it as it won't be relevant until a turn or two after.

I agree that just being on the card works as a deterrent whether or not you ever see it actually happen, you're right. I'm just saying that if that aspect of the model just got deleted, I wouldn't miss it.

Once again, I probably should start a completely different thread at this point, but it's less about the guilty, and more about "The crew still has some clunks and redundant models, how can we make it a bit smoother to help it go from 90% ready to print-it".

I'm just really weary of starting any new threads with how much the developers are dealing now and all the emotional reactions that recent talks have produced.

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2 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

It's more like, even if the model does get resummoned, I don't really care for it as it won't be relevant until a turn or two after.

I agree that just being on the card works as a deterrent whether or not you ever see it actually happen, you're right. I'm just saying that if that aspect of the model just got deleted, I wouldn't miss it.

Once again, I probably should start a completely different thread at this point, but it's less about thr guilty, and more about "The crew still has some clunks and redundant models, how can we make it a bit smoother to help it go from 90% ready to print material".

I'm just really weary of starting any new threads with how much the developers are dealing now and all the emotional reactions that recent talks have produced.

Sure sure, I get that.  But at the very least IF it comes back, its a resource that you can use for turn 5 to score a VP or deny potentially.  A model is never a bad thing. 

As for the Thread, I wouldn't worry to much about it.  The devs I'm sure are used to it, and any feedback that is honest and focused on an actual problem will be well receieved

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14 hours ago, Bakuriel said:

As @Saduhem said, I'm making suggestions so they can be discussed in regards to balance and diversity. I get that the Guilty are fundamentally good models, but as they are now, are they good for Jack, or just good for 5 stones? Most of the complaints I've been hearing involve mobility and scheming. 

While I'm not against masters that do the scheming themselves, Jack has other things he needs to do most of the time, so it's apparently been falling to the Hanged, which seems grossly inefficient at the best of times. Nobody wants to change crooked men, drowned have improved recently, and the rest of the crew feel like they're mostly where they need to be. 

Guilty are the only models that feel unusual. They aren't bad, but they go in some weird directions. You want them to die, but they're not especially fast, and they have an attack action that can heal themselves, which is counterintuitive to being sacrificed. I've seen plenty of suggestions that it's so easy to prevent the resummon that it may as well not be there.

Since you bring up the issue of balance, the models can be adjusted if my idea comes around at all. You could add a stone and completely remove the resummon aspect of their demise and I'd still take them for the value they'd offer to my rather immobile crew. But that action isn't as straightforward as it sounds, as I'm pretty sure people forget you can cheat a low card out of your hand to fail the resulting attack on purpose. I'm just trying to foster discussion about where the guilty are currently, and whether they need something different to help the crew, or if we should just continue ham fistedly trying to fix an awkward mechanic. 

This is all fine. Just letting you know how I feel about adding the suggested effect with no other suggested changes for balance. You both can cheat low for the attack which could make for some amusing activations where you see who has the lowest card in hand. It could maybe even influence what you keep when you stone for cards. 

Honestly, mv 5 on these guys is not bad. I guess it comes down to what design philosophy we want. Should every crew have amazing scheme runners or can mechanics (like the amount of pressure this crew puts on the opponents hand) allow you to complete your schemes with average models? Either way works. I do like crews being diverse and there should be a spectrum of schemey-ness, killy-ness, and control across crews. I do love my dedicated scheme runners in the crews I play though, so I understand wanting Jack to have his own. 

Without thinking about what changes we would make to do so, what ss cost would we want them to be at to make them effective and easy enough to slot into his crew? I could see them being adjusted to be a nice incorporeal scheme runner like the void wretches (though, I don't think other people like them as much as I do).

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Time to give these guys another try!
This time I'll take the @Flippin' Wyrd Jamie approach and hire two, even if that costs me the Hanged (although not sure where my VP are going to come from). If that man says it's worth it, I really gotta give it a few tries.

With two weeks of playtesting between now and the next update, It's Jack time. 

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Yeah give them a try mate

I think you just don't take Jack in a scheme game. It's not necessarily a bad thing if not all keywords can compete in all games as it promotes using a diverse pool of masters and will hopefully stop the m2e solo master top end tournament trend.

I don't think the guilty need to change at all now. The summon needs to be fairly simple to prevent for your opponent or they would be worth way more than 5ss 

With the resummon (if it happens) allowing them to place to Jack they are spot on solid 5ss minions. Card discard abilities are an important part of Jack's survival mechanic so terrifying actually stops some attacks but if they get any better from here their cost would need to go up which in a keyword where it's tough to take everything you want anyway would be really bad

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5 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

Yeah give them a try mate

I think you just don't take Jack in a scheme game. It's not necessarily a bad thing if not all keywords can compete in all games as it promotes using a diverse pool of masters and will hopefully stop the m2e solo master top end tournament trend.

I don't think the guilty need to change at all now. The summon needs to be fairly simple to prevent for your opponent or they would be worth way more than 5ss 

With the resummon (if it happens) allowing them to place to Jack they are spot on solid 5ss minions. Card discard abilities are an important part of Jack's survival mechanic so terrifying actually stops some attacks but if they get any better from here their cost would need to go up which in a keyword where it's tough to take everything you want anyway would be really bad

I don't see them needing change either.

I get your point about Jack not being "schemey", but I really struggle finding good pools for him outside of getting Detonate the charges or take prisoner on a Hanged/Jaakuna. I'd hate to only play Jack for Reckoning (And he's really not that great for the second point on Dig their Graves). If I want to kill things, Mcmourning, Parker, Reva, (And recently Seamus) have been a lot more efficient for me at least, offering me many more options for VP without needing all stagger/upgrade/position setup.

I'm going to play Jack a lot over the next two weeks because there was always something off compared to how smooth other crews feel. I really think having to discard upgrades on punishment being one of the biggies, but I'll have keep on playing.

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