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So, exactly why are Enforcers the worst station? They don’t get extra Actions, they don’t get to use SS, they don’t get the extra benefit from upgrades, which is nonsensical because minions are not limited by cost. There doesn’t seem to me to be any design difference between models at different costs. You hire a model if it’s worth the cost. So why exactly can a 9ss hanged attach an upgrade and get the minion bonus and a 6ss enforcer can’t. 

Can someone explain this to me? It seems actively bad to be an enforcer in this edition. Why is this. I’ve been wondering for a long time and it’s just really bugging me. Is there some design feature that enforcers gets that are unique to them and not to other stations?

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Enforcer just seems to mean unique non Hench this edition. With stuff like emissaries/riders in the station it doesn't make sense to let that station have the minion bonus.  I haven't done the searching but I'd hope a enforcer has slightly more usability / stats / etc than a similarly costed minion to make up for the lack of minion upgrade effect.

I getcha sometimes it sucks. Like not being able to use Mccabe buffs on the dawn serpent this edition is annoying (but not that annoying cause I never really liked that model), but it's a varied station so it's hard to set rules that won't be bad for a model or 2.

That said for concrete benefit. They can hold 2 bombs while minions only get 1.  Makes me think schemes will still use that station in the future.

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Enforcer and above tend to have unique abilities. It certainly feels strange at a glance to see minions getting access to buffs that only affect minions, while Henchmen get soulstones, leaving Enforcers with nothing special and extra, but you must remember that minions are not unique and enforcers are. Even a high cost minion isn't going to have an ability that would be too strong if repeated, while enforcers will do unique thing befitting their station, but not be powerful or high costed enough to warrant being a henchman and using soulstones, or being the Leader of a list.

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Have to agree with OP, there are some enforcer level minions out there so enforcer means nothing this edition other than get no bonuses. Some examples that get benefits from upgrades for some reason because they are minions but better than enforcers:

sabretooth cerberus, warpig, guardian, witchling thrall, mature nephilim, desolation engine, hanged, jorogumu 

So all factions have these types of models that get great bonuses from the minion  part of upgrades. I think that it should apply to minions and enforcers as neither get to use soulstones and at 2 cost would it break things considering the minions we are seeing regularly now with upgrades?

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It kinda goes back to the whole Hanged and 2016 Collect the Bounty.

Personally, I'd rather see the definition between Minions and Enforcers blurred a little (allow Minions to be unique, and Enforcers in multiple), because I'm really not a fan of the Minion Upgrade bonuses being so unevenly divided. That a Deso Engine or Mature Neph get a bonus that Big Jake or Iggy don't, regardless of spending the same amount, seems hinky. I definitely prefer the idea that these be cost limited (either instead of, or in addition to) how the Minion bonus works. Though there's probably a breakage or two, I not seen in an actual game, an Upgrade not on a Master or an 8SS+ Minion.

I do wish they'd use the design space they've already allowed (pg34 callout, pg41, second column, third para), to make some models Enforcer (2), and Minion (1). There's no reason IMO that a lot of models can't make that switch.

If not going that way, probably not enough space, and probably too big a disruption this late in the process, but what about the idea of Enforcers getting a "Soulstone Token", that allows them (and only them) to use a once per game Soulstone effect at a cost (discard?), kinda like a variation on Collette's doves. So, they're not trusted enough to have access to the cache, and they can't use it efficiently, but it adds a little something that they can do beyond what a Minion can.

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I think there was already a topic on it. I think capping the buffs at 6 or less SS models would be much better than adding them to minions.

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I think Minions is being used as a convenient word to restrict some things to certain models.

Are you worried about the model getting the 3rd upgrade bonus? Make it a minion.

Are you worried about the ability to summon a Teddy? Make it an enforcer.

I can't remember if we have any unique minions, or plentiful enforcers, but the rules certainly allow for them (and I think had them at various points during the closed beta).

 

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I think the current system is quite a good way to accomplish a couple of things at once.

  1. Disencourage (to an extent) the "all-star" crews that dominated late M2E (especially summoning Masters)
  2. Encourage (to an extent) having Minions in your starting crew to receive their Upgrade benefits (which only make most upgrades worth their 2 SS in the first place)
  3. Control summoning mechanics better

That said, I fully understand resentment against this as well. It feels weird to have a named model which is named due to a special reputation it has within the Malifaux lore (or which it will receive some point in the future - e.g. Strongarm Suit now being Arik Whatever) getting less benefit than an ordinary Minion. 

There have always been strange categorisations. Some Minions in M2E were far better than some Enforcers were and this was not always properly reflected in their cost. This might still be an issue but having an 8 SS Minion with a 2 SS upgrade being on par with a 10 SS Enforcer does not feel that wrong to me.

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1 hour ago, bsm86 said:

I think the current system is quite a good way to accomplish a couple of things at once.

  1. Disencourage (to an extent) the "all-star" crews that dominated late M2E (especially summoning Masters)
  2. Encourage (to an extent) having Minions in your starting crew to receive their Upgrade benefits (which only make most upgrades worth their 2 SS in the first place)
  3. Control summoning mechanics better

That said, I fully understand resentment against this as well. It feels weird to have a named model which is named due to a special reputation it has within the Malifaux lore (or which it will receive some point in the future - e.g. Strongarm Suit now being Arik Whatever) getting less benefit than an ordinary Minion. 

There have always been strange categorisations. Some Minions in M2E were far better than some Enforcers were and this was not always properly reflected in their cost. This might still be an issue but having an 8 SS Minion with a 2 SS upgrade being on par with a 10 SS Enforcer does not feel that wrong to me.

Well if we want upgrades to be balanced there is an issue with the bonus on upgrades refering to minions and not SS cost. 9 out of 10 times you would want that bonus on an expensive minion over a cheap one and the low costed enforcers do not look unbalanced if they got this bonus as well.

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I agree that the bonus should not be given to Minions but to low cost models. The reason I was told why the upgrades gave a bonus to minions was to encourage you to put that investment on the lower cost more fragile models. As stated there are “Enforcer” level minions like hanged, jorogumo and such like. And it still makes no sense that a mature Nephilim can have all the bonuses of an upgrade but Iggy can’t.

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2 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I agree that the bonus should not be given to Minions but to low cost models. The reason I was told why the upgrades gave a bonus to minions was to encourage you to put that investment on the lower cost more fragile models. As stated there are “Enforcer” level minions like hanged, jorogumo and such like. And it still makes no sense that a mature Nephilim can have all the bonuses of an upgrade but Iggy can’t.

But a problem is that some minions seems to be balanced around certain upgrades. For example I would never imagine hiring a Desolation Engine without sticking Servant of Dark Powers on it.

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Then there is a fundamental problem with those models. Upgrades are not supposed to be required to take. If your deso engine isn’t worth its cost without the upgrade then the deso needs a redesign. 

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7 minutes ago, Jkkb said:

But a problem is that some minions seems to be balanced around certain upgrades. For example I would never imagine hiring a Desolation Engine without sticking Servant of Dark Powers on it.

The point is that Des Engine can still be hired with that upgrade. The bonus from servant of darkness is not the main reason to give that upgrade to Desolation Engine and the upgrade should not be auto include on desolation engine - then we might as well have DE cost 12ss with the upgrade built into it.  

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2 hours ago, bsm86 said:

 

That said, I fully understand resentment against this as well. It feels weird to have a named model which is named due to a special reputation it has within the Malifaux lore (or which it will receive some point in the future - e.g. Strongarm Suit now being Arik Whatever) getting less benefit than an ordinary Minion. 

There have always been strange categorisations. Some Minions in M2E were far better than some Enforcers were and this was not always properly reflected in their cost. This might still be an issue but having an 8 SS Minion with a 2 SS upgrade being on par with a 10 SS Enforcer does not feel that wrong to me.

the difference is, m2e had enforcers allowed upgrades such as imbued energies etc whilst minions could get them. now everybody can get upgrades but minions get a bonus and some of those minions are quite powerful already

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1 minute ago, katadder said:

the difference is, m2e had enforcers allowed upgrades such as imbued energies etc whilst minions could get them. now everybody can get upgrades but minions get a bonus and some of those minions are quite powerful already

True.

However, most of those Minions are quite costly and their own defenses are usually not comparable to an Enforcer of the same cost. The upgrade ist therefore - although powerful - not as survivable as a benchmarked Enforcer. 

Jorogumo for example dies quickly to any half decent beater with Min Damage 3 and a trigger / Flurry whereas a Dawn Serpent (same cost, same HP) still as HtK.

I do agree that Hanged are pretty crazy with the upgrade attached.

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14 minutes ago, bsm86 said:

Jorogumo for example dies quickly to any half decent beater with Min Damage 3 and a trigger / Flurry whereas a Dawn Serpent (same cost, same HP) still as HtK.

There isn't really a lot of models with min damage 3 and flurry/Onslaught.

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If a model is worth its cost then it will be taken. There isn’t some enforcers get better defenses above their SS cost that I’m aware of. If you have 2 models of equal cost, if they are balanced correctly, all their drawbacks and advantages will determine cost and whether they are worth taking. 

I’ve never seen a balance discussion about how station should affect its cost. I’ve never seen someone go:

 well this thing is so expensive and needs to be in combat so it needs x things to make it survivable enough to do its job.

Hang on there. That’s a minion. That shouldn’t get the defenses it needs to do its job.

Wow you’re right. Because it’s a minion we should scale back.

The issue to me is that the station characteristics have not translated over well. Enforcers as a station have become shorthand for not summonable, no bonus from upgrades and not what they were in 2e when the station was created. Enforcers didn’t exist in 1e.

 

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2 minutes ago, trikk said:

There isn't really a lot of models with min damage 3 and flurry/Onslaught.

From the top of my head there are quite a few: Killjoy, Mr. Graves, Teddy, Desolation Engine (w/ Necrotic Decay trigger), Rusty Alyce, Bishop (w/ Crit Strike), Peacekeeper, Archie...

Granted not all of those are Enforcers but they're all capable of getting rid of a Jorogumo, Rougarou etc. in one activation.

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Honestly I think they should just allow enforcers and minions to get the final ability on upgrades. Neither can use soulstones and 9ss enforcer should be balanced vs 9ss minion anyway.

Allow this but keep the enforcer station so these models can't be summoned.

Would mean checking for janky interactions but it can't be that bad if the like a of mature nephilim or desolation engines are getting these upgrades

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16 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Hanged can. Use SS I mean. But I sort of agree. Would any of the totems break with the upgrades?

Well that's hanged who are minions anyway and also get something that cost raspy 2ss in 2e (black jokers as red jokers). as for totems, apart from 3 (huggy, banasuva and chompy) most are easy to kill so doubt you would put a 2ss upgrade on them. Would any break the 3 mentioned above?

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