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Nephetina

Thoughts about DMH generaly and in the end about Lilith especially

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First, my english is not very well, but because of the support of my husband and my go for Malifaux, i will try to write more than one or two lines this time and hope it will understandable, what i´m trying to say.

Like many others, i´m not a fan of the DMH. Yeah, the story let them go away in one kind or another, but non of them to a point of no hope. So i will hope that they come back to their key-models one time.

-Nicodem... i think the death is no problem for the undead Lord. ;)
-Ramos is "just" in the jail and Misaki had saved his life after all.
-Collodi... ok, i actually don´t know what hapened to him exactly.
-Lilith is at the same place, where Titania spend so much time, and at least, she (Titania) came back. So why should Lilith not also find a way.

Because of Nekima had taken her place and lead the Nephilim, Lilith would have no key-crew like the others without some changes. After all, i searched for a way to play as close as possibile to the story. Barbaros already has the "ability", that he may not be hired into crews lead by Nekima and in my opinion, Hayreddin should have the same with Lilith, because of Lilith had banished him for his necromancy. After some reading of the Nephilim-cards, i´ve come to the conclusion that Nekima with Hayreddin makes a wonderful grow-crew, in that claws fly over the field. On the other hand there are Lilith and her Totem with Hazardours-Terain-Aura, wich go well together with the control of enemy position from Barbaros and Lilitu. Latter also give out "Distracted", that you also find on Corrupted Hounds. I find it kind of funny, that in this way mostly the flying models splits from these without flying.

I´m not sure yet, wether it fits or not, but i will try this split a while and still hope for the return of the DMH.

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I think we've hit the good point. You can play all those DMH characters in the faction they came from. There is no mechanical downside to DMH. They are not allowed in official tournaments, and they won't have future releases give models designed and intended for them to run with. But they can use them.

 

If you are asking for just them to come back in the story, that is possible. But DMH doesn't affect mechanics like it almost did, so I don't think there is any problem with it.

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For what it's worth, there have been two justifications used for DMH, some of which apply to some models more than others:

  • Story events applying to render the model "dead" or otherwise incapacitated.
  • Irreconcilable design issues

So the implication is more, I think, that if/when those models come back to regular play, they aren't going to be the same as they used to be.  And, my gosh, do the designers deserve hazard pay for putting up with the feedback when that first came out.  

When Lilith got put in the temporal prison thing, she was still critically wounded.  Nicodem's at best currently trapped in a soul stone.  Who knows what's going on with Collodi or Ramos at the moment...

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Thanks to the Title system, all they'd have to do is add in a new version of masters like "Lilith, the Returned" "Ramos, Master Smuggler" etc.  The DMH versions are basically just "okay, these models aren't in the story right now, maybe one day some of them might come back but until then here's something that lets you at least use your models."

Plus in the CB it was mentioned that having DMH can let them do stupid fun things like having a potential "beach party" version of Raspy without having to have a canonical reason for why Raspy would every willingly 1) go to a beach or 2) have fun :P 

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26 minutes ago, retnab said:

Thanks to the Title system, all they'd have to do is add in a new version of masters like "Lilith, the Returned" "Ramos, Master Smuggler" etc.  The DMH versions are basically just "okay, these models aren't in the story right now, maybe one day some of them might come back but until then here's something that lets you at least use your models."

Plus in the CB it was mentioned that having DMH can let them do stupid fun things like having a potential "beach party" version of Raspy without having to have a canonical reason for why Raspy would every willingly 1) go to a beach or 2) have fun :P 

Great.  Now I can't get the image of Raspy hosting an Arcanist beach party out of my head.

She, of course, is in a bathing suit.

Everyone else is bundled to the gills in fur-lined coats and scarves, because "Rasputina beach party" is more like "extreme polar bear swim".

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Personally I feel the direction they took initially (completely removing them from their factions into a DMH faction) was perfect.  The story needs to have permanence to matter.  Wyrd reincorporating them into their factions (and essentially the mainstream of the game) takes away from the importance of the story as it interacts with the game.  The fluff is a big part of the draw to Malifaux.  These masters may come back into the story as players but for now they should stay gone from the game.  Edition changes are a big deal.  Models are added, models are taken away.  The bloat would become extreme if there were never "cleanses".  I know this isn't the loudest opinion presented on the internet, but it is a popular opinion in my area. 

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10 minutes ago, werewolf-comics said:

Personally I feel the direction they took initially (completely removing them from their factions into a DMH faction) was perfect.  The story needs to have permanence to matter.  Wyrd reincorporating them into their factions (and essentially the mainstream of the game) takes away from the importance of the story as it interacts with the game.

Are you really claiming that creating an 8th Faction, then saying that's not really a Faction (effectively a null Faction), and putting rules on all of the master to allow them to act sort of/kind of like they were still in their original factions (hiring versatile models, etc.) was "perfect"?  Especially when "How exactly am I supposed to declare not having a Faction at the start of the game?" never had a satisfactory answer.

You're welcome to have your own opinion about whether those models should have been removed entirely, but trying to claim that it was being handled perfectly I think you're overlooking a lot of issues.

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1 hour ago, solkan said:

Oh, yeah.  Like "Hot Springs" Kaeris would be any safer.  :o

It might be—Arcanists at least have masters that take no damage from Vent Steam. :D

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I don't see why the current state of the story matters. Should I not play WWII games now, because the war is already over?

I'd prefer to play a game that gave me a sandbox with list of important characters across its timeline, instead of trying to come up with reasons for dozens of different masters to all be fighting each other all at once.

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23 minutes ago, Scary Terry said:

I don't see why the current state of the story matters. Should I not play WWII games now, because the war is already over?

It's different because this game is fictional and character driven, so unlike WWII games it's not meant to be an immersive "play history" thing, Malifaux takes place in a living, breathing world and it would somewhat break immersion to ignore that. That doesn't mean I like DMH, but it does make a lot it sense.

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42 minutes ago, Scary Terry said:

I don't see why the current state of the story matters. Should I not play WWII games now, because the war is already over?

I'd prefer to play a game that gave me a sandbox with list of important characters across its timeline, instead of trying to come up with reasons for dozens of different masters to all be fighting each other all at once.

Unless you're playing in big tournaments it literally doesn't matter, nothing's stopping you and friends from playing with the DMH masters, that's why they're getting cards still

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47 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said:

It's different because this game is fictional and character driven, so unlike WWII games it's not meant to be an immersive "play history" thing, Malifaux takes place in a living, breathing world and it would somewhat break immersion to ignore that. That doesn't mean I like DMH, but it does make a lot it sense.

Not having campaign rules and perma-death for casual play must be equally immersion breaking for that sort of thing.  Or is there some sort of narrative double standard that applies in those situations?

And trying to say that Malifaux isn't meant to allow players to recreate the events in the stories (like Seamus and Rasputina fighting in a graveyard and discovering they were after two different items) is really foolish.  That--recreating things that have happened in the narrative--is part of the reason behind Story Encounters.

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1 minute ago, solkan said:

Not having campaign rules and perma-death for casual play must be equally immersion breaking for that sort of thing.  Or is there some sort of narrative double standard that applies in those situations?

That's what Shifting Loyalties is :P I definitely understand what you're saying, I'm just repeating what's already been said about why they did it.

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I still say if we don't get that Lady Justice, Rasputina, Seamus, and Von Schill beach party box from that original post about alternate masters, I'm going to be a bit sad.

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