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Brewmaster - Intoxication is oppressive, reduce aura?

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Hi all. I've just had a game against @Mayt's Brewmaster with my Mei Feng, which was for the most part balanced, but I found the interaction of poison and Intoxication to be a real oppressive experience. I'd be curious hearing any other peoples opinion who have played vs. Brewmaster. This is not my first game vs. him, and I've watched a couple of others, but in every game Intoxication has had a real negative effect on the opponent. Here's the ability.

image.thumb.png.f0ea26cb52229149f1f23056e8476c31.png

 

We know Brewmaster's crew gives out poison relatively easy to enemy models, as it should. But in the game I just played, even by taking two instances of condition removal in my crew, I just got overwhelmed by the sheer amount of poison the crew gave out, and consequently slow, due to Intoxication. My models were unable to affect the game from about T3 onwards as any poison removed with condition removal was easily reapplied, and as we know only having one action is severely crippling to any model, let alone the majority of a crew. As there is no other way to remove poison I was left pretty helpless. Has anyone else had a similar experience? :ToS-Aura: 6 is huge on the table, particularly on a model that is psuedo defence 7 with a low TN heal -- very hard to shift off the table. My opponent and I both agreed that had he been more familiar with 3rd as a ruleset, it would have been an absolute trouncing.

Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted to see Brewmaster on the table and getting used much more reguarly than 2nd ed, and I think he is in a really good place theme and gameplay wise, but I am concerned that Intoxication is a little too good with the sheer amount of posion the crew gives out. This is the only thing I'd consider looking at. Perhaps the numbers on Intoxication could be tweaked: :ToS-Aura:3? 

 

What do you think Gremlin players, and those who have played vs. Brewmaster? Naturally I am expecting some opposition from Gremlin players 😂 but am curious to hear what the community thinks.

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I haven't played with Brew Master yet, so I don't have any real ideas or oppinions of my own. But I'm interested to see what other people say.

Maybe engaging at range? Most of his defense relies on  poison, so at range DF 5 and 12 wounds isn't that spectacular. I know not all crews have a significant range component. You're drunk go home is pretty strong, but maybe focused charges when you can get them.

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4 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

 

Maybe engaging at range? Most of his defense relies on  poison, so at range DF 5 and 12 wounds isn't that spectacular. I know not all crews have a significant range component. You're drunk go home is pretty strong, but maybe focused charges when you can get them.

Engaging at range seemed like the obvious counter, but when your opponent is savvy enough to get around ranged models by luring them in whilst giving them poison (even through concealment), there isnt much more you can do.

 

I tried blocking the aura with large models as well ( I hired 4 50mms) but its too easy for brewmaster to move around it.

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Rather than making the bubble smaller, I think even simply making intoxication trigger on poison +3 rather than 2 might make it slightly harder to stick. It'd take at least two attacks to reapply most of the time. 

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If the Nerf proves necessary, I think giving it a target # to resist would be good. Part of the reason people complained about Collette was that she could hand out distracted with no resist.

Like say 8+ the models poison value. 

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I’ve played a lot of Brewmaster.

Brewie is so synergie based that if u want to play him it’s as your leader 99% of the time. Every faction has a good access to condition removal and brewmaster is fully condition based. This is one of the largest windows for counterplay against a crew mechanic that is even possible in the game. 

Even Kaeris has less counterplay because she doesn’t need to Stack burning on her models and the enemy and pyre markers do provide burning while with brewie its all on ap to hand out poison.

Brewie is in a very good spot while the Enemy doesn’t actively Use condition removal, in a good spot if he manages to kill the condition removal models early and in a mediocre to bad spot while the enemy knows what he is doing and protects his condition removal.

The aura is a pretty ok tool for tarpit scenarios but far away from oppressive. Killing key models one by one is way more effective than tarpitting the whole enemy team and trying to tank it, like the m2e aproach was. If you get stuck in Brewies aura with to many models in the current strat and scheme set and you can’t manage to put enough pressure on Brewie before all your models are totally drunk, I suggest you should think about different approaches to counter his crew ingame and while hiring. 

Foundry is one of the most mobile crews in Malifaux and they can even escape the Brewie bubble vis ride the rails. 

There are tons of ways you can play so Brewie and his debuffs are far from oppressive.

Mechanis based on conditions are a problem for the master/models using the mechanic, not the enemies. Conditions have such large counterplay against them in m3e it’s easy to use them against new m3e players and very very hard against players who know how counter hiring works in m3e and bring a correctly built crew to deal with Brewie. 

I would absolutly love to see brewmaster or mcmourning as the declared leader of my opponent in a tournament. Hiring is so obvious and straight forward against them. 

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10 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

I’ve played a lot of Brewmaster

Could you maybe dispense some advice on counter play? 

13 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

If you get stuck in Brewies aura with to many models in the current strat and scheme set and you can’t manage to put enough pressure on Brewie before all your models are totally drunk, I suggest you should think about different approaches to counter his crew ingame and while hiring. 

Hiring choices seem pretty straight forward, but could you give tips or suggestions on countering the crew in game? 

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15 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Could you maybe dispense some advice on counter play? 

Hiring choices seem pretty straight forward, but could you give tips or suggestions on countering the crew in game? 

Brewie himself and the low river monks need to get a lot of poison onto themselves to be very effective. Offensive condition removal really limits their power, especially when it comes to dealing damage. 

Also brewmaster is really only tanky against people who already have poison. This means striking him from either ranged or with huge charge threatranges is crucial to putting a lot of pressure on him. Hurt him while you are not poisoned.

Anti healing knocks his crew out. But that is a resser thing, appearantly. 

Usually games tend to go well vs opponents who try to play a defensive, passive game and not so well against offensive crews with condition removal. Putting a lot of dmg on Brewie and separating him from the whiskey golem and Wesley or killing Wesley early with ranged fire is a good way to disrupt the brewmaster effectiveness. All of trip chi rely on self healing mostly and once that 0 is out they are pretty vulnerable.

shrug off models are very good vs tri chi.

any kin of ranged models.

Engaging him with Summons was very effective.

There are also factions who just have hardcounters vs him. The Scorpius for arc/neverborn Marcus and the necrotic mashine of molly just wreck tri chi.

The carrion emissary is so good vs tri chi.

Albus von schtook is one of the hardest masters to play against as Brewie.

Ingame tho, removing poison from Brewie himself repeatedly is the most important thing. And watch out for low river monks for the same reason. The rest of the crew is manageable.

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As someone who actually played Mei Feng vs Brewmaster right near the end of CB, the aura didn't trigger once against me. However, I was bouncing all over the place so avoiding Brewie wasn't too big of an issue for me. In the proposed solutions above if needed then changing it to triggering off Poison +3's got my vote

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25 minutes ago, retnab said:

As someone who actually played Mei Feng vs Brewmaster right near the end of CB, the aura didn't trigger once against me. However, I was bouncing all over the place so avoiding Brewie wasn't too big of an issue for me. In the proposed solutions above if needed then changing it to triggering off Poison +3's got my vote

I am surprised by this. Did the Brewie player not lure your poisoned models into his aura? Did they not move Brewie into position to apply the slow? Its very easily done. The problem I had with Mei's crew is, whilst I could escape, I was using my only available AP to get away (which then could have been lured back by Brewmaster).

8 hours ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

I’ve played a lot of Brewmaster.

Brewie is so synergie based that if u want to play him it’s as your leader 99% of the time. Every faction has a good access to condition removal and brewmaster is fully condition based. This is one of the largest windows for counterplay against a crew mechanic that is even possible in the game. 

Even Kaeris has less counterplay because she doesn’t need to Stack burning on her models and the enemy and pyre markers do provide burning while with brewie its all on ap to hand out poison.

Brewie is in a very good spot while the Enemy doesn’t actively Use condition removal, in a good spot if he manages to kill the condition removal models early and in a mediocre to bad spot while the enemy knows what he is doing and protects his condition removal.

The aura is a pretty ok tool for tarpit scenarios but far away from oppressive. Killing key models one by one is way more effective than tarpitting the whole enemy team and trying to tank it, like the m2e aproach was. If you get stuck in Brewies aura with to many models in the current strat and scheme set and you can’t manage to put enough pressure on Brewie before all your models are totally drunk, I suggest you should think about different approaches to counter his crew ingame and while hiring. 

Foundry is one of the most mobile crews in Malifaux and they can even escape the Brewie bubble vis ride the rails. 

There are tons of ways you can play so Brewie and his debuffs are far from oppressive.

Mechanis based on conditions are a problem for the master/models using the mechanic, not the enemies. Conditions have such large counterplay against them in m3e it’s easy to use them against new m3e players and very very hard against players who know how counter hiring works in m3e and bring a correctly built crew to deal with Brewie. 

I would absolutly love to see brewmaster or mcmourning as the declared leader of my opponent in a tournament. Hiring is so obvious and straight forward against them. 

I considered counter play heavily in my hiring pool. I deliberately hired the Arcane Effigy and Forgeling which have condition removal, Envy and Willie which have ranged damage and the rest of my crew had access to ride the rails or armour +2 which greatly reduces the effect of poison damage. I used condition removal every turn and, despite this, my opponent was still able to put extreme poison pressure on by constantly reapplying the condition through Brewmaster, splash triggers and other models in the crew. By turn 3 Brewmaster was in the middle of the board and had splashed poison, one way or another, onto the majority of my models, meaning that most of my models were slow. They had the choice between escaping by ride the rails (to a location Brewmaster could have followed up to), or standing there and trying to make good use of their 1 AP vs. a now df7 wp7 master. The 13" diameter bubble of slow was very oppressive, I don't know how you can defend this as anything otherwise.

Something has got to give. I am not saying there needs to be sweeping changes or anything drastic, but a slight reduction on Intoxication gives a little more breathing space from the chokehold Brewmaster currently can have on the board. Perhaps my game showed an extreme example of what's possible, but I hired and used counterplay and it had real minimal effect.

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4 minutes ago, Hollingydale said:

I am surprised by this. Did the Brewie player not lure your poisoned models into his aura? Did they not move Brewie into position to apply the slow? Its very easily done. The problem I had with Mei's crew is, whilst I could escape, I was using my only available AP to get away (which then could have been lured back by Brewmaster).

I considered counter play heavily in my hiring pool. I deliberately hired the Arcane Effigy and Forgeling which have condition removal, Envy and Willie which have ranged damage and the rest of my crew had access to ride the rails or armour +2 which greatly reduces the effect of poison damage. I used condition removal every turn and, despite this, my opponent was still able to put extreme poison pressure on by constantly reapplying the condition through Brewmaster, splash triggers and other models in the crew. By turn 3 Brewmaster was in the middle of the board and had splashed poison, one way or another, onto the majority of my models, meaning that most of my models were slow. They had the choice between escaping by ride the rails (to a location Brewmaster could have followed up to), or standing there and trying to make good use of their 1 AP vs. a now df7 wp7 master. The 13" diameter bubble of slow was very oppressive, I don't know how you can defend this as anything otherwise.

Something has got to give. I am not saying there needs to be sweeping changes or anything drastic, but a slight reduction on Intoxication gives a little more breathing space from the chokehold Brewmaster currently can have on the board. Perhaps my game showed an extreme example of what's possible, but I hired and used counterplay and it had real minimal effect.

My choice would have been an oxforidan mage for his aura, but I see the problem. I think it was an extreme scenario tho. In my games especially vs condition removal crews, Brewie was threatened very hard by offensive condition removal. Most of his damage comes from his drunken strength trigger and that is based on poison on him. Lost love removed poison of Brewie and the monks several times from range and it was super hard for Brewie. Playing with 2/3/4 isn’t as scary anymore. The controll side is more focused on enemies having poison and on them being in close ranges. 

I think it might have been an extreme scenario in your and my games aswell, on both sides of the spectrum.

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24 minutes ago, Hollingydale said:

I am surprised by this. Did the Brewie player not lure your poisoned models into his aura? Did they not move Brewie into position to apply the slow? Its very easily done. The problem I had with Mei's crew is, whilst I could escape, I was using my only available AP to get away (which then could have been lured back by Brewmaster).

It was more if something had poison and was around brewie a dead model is better than a slow model. This was also before they buffed poison so I was using blood poison a lot to just kill models.

 

In my latest game was kind of the same thing, most models with poison around brewmaster didn't last long enough for the slow aura to come up.

 

Brewmaster can lure something 12", but unless I get the :crowtrigger or the model has WK > 5 or pulling the model out of position is extremely beneficial I feel better off just walking and beating stuff to death 70% of the time. 

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58 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

It was more if something had poison and was around brewie a dead model is better than a slow model. This was also before they buffed poison so I was using blood poison a lot to just kill models.

 

59 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Most of his damage comes from his drunken strength trigger and that is based on poison on him.

I think this is where the differences occur. My opponent was ensuring that my models stayed poisoned at all points during the game, rather than going for raw damage, giving huge control making my crew slow. I urge you to try this, its extremely oppressive played well.

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10 hours ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Every faction has a good access to condition removal

yeah...not so much.... Resurrs have a Nurse who has a 3" range and costs 7ss out of theme. The only other non-master options is Francis who, without Urami, you're paying 7SS for Dispel Magic and that's about it. I'm not as familiar with every faction, but I know there are others that only have one or two models with Condition Removal and it seems like they are often very short range now. So even if I bring a Nurse, there is a good chance that she might be in the Aura as well in order to try and remove Slow. 

I keep seeing this argument, but I don't think there is as much condition removal as there used to be, especially without Mercs from m2e. 

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11 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

yeah...not so much.... Resurrs have a Nurse who has a 3" range and costs 7ss out of theme. The only other non-master options is Francis who, without Urami, you're paying 7SS for Dispel Magic and that's about it. I'm not as familiar with every faction, but I know there are others that only have one or two models with Condition Removal and it seems like they are often very short range now. So even if I bring a Nurse, there is a good chance that she might be in the Aura as well in order to try and remove Slow. 

I keep seeing this argument, but I don't think there is as much condition removal as there used to be, especially without Mercs from m2e. 

Also, as seen in my game, three potential condition removals per turn was not enough.

 

But we are getting away from the point of the thread: not that Brewmaster gives out too much poison (he should), but that the Intoxication synergy is oppressive.

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I suggest you to play brewmaster and look the options you have to work with while trying to adapt to the enemy. He has a strong attack, if he has poison, he has the aura, a lure and a bonus action heal. That’s it. Very squishy for a close range master and also, ad the crew very weak to stunned. 

30 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

yeah...not so much.... Resurrs have a Nurse who has a 3" range and costs 7ss out of theme. The only other non-master options is Francis who, without Urami, you're paying 7SS for Dispel Magic and that's about it. I'm not as familiar with every faction, but I know there are others that only have one or two models with Condition Removal and it seems like they are often very short range now. So even if I bring a Nurse, there is a good chance that she might be in the Aura as well in order to try and remove Slow. 

I keep seeing this argument, but I don't think there is as much condition removal as there used to be, especially without Mercs from m2e. 

I don’t understand. The point is that condition removal is one of the major weaknesses of brewie and ur not willing to pay 7ss to attack that weakness? Something in that concept doesn’t sound logic to me. 

Tell me any Resser leader and I will build you a crew that destroys the whole tri chi crew. 

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Just now, I'm a Teapot! said:

I don’t understand. The point is that condition removal is one of the major weaknesses of brewie and ur not willing to pay 7ss to attack that weakness? Something in that concept doesn’t sound logic to me. 

I'm saying it's one 7SS model with a short range condition removal and dubious other benefits imo. She can't be everywhere and she isn't really that great at condition removal. You're statement was that every faction has good access to condition removal. I'm bringing up that they really don't. And while you say bring condition removal, even the poster mentions he had three condition removals per turn and still found it oppressive. Not to mention if I bring one Nurse she is target priority nemero uno for a Brewie player. And with a 3" range I can't just leave her in the back or protect her very well. She needs to be up near the action to be able to remove conditions. 

I don't know if Brewie is OP at the moment. That aura does look really strong, but I haven't played it. If his crew can really hand out Poison that easy then upping the needed poison to +3 seems the easiest fix if needed. He can still get use of it and still cause problems. I wouldn't shorten the range myself, but even adding a simple Duel or a Discard to avoid might work.

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10 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I'm saying it's one 7SS model with a short range condition removal and dubious other benefits imo. She can't be everywhere and she isn't really that great at condition removal. You're statement was that every faction has good access to condition removal. I'm bringing up that they really don't. And while you say bring condition removal, even the poster mentions he had three condition removals per turn and still found it oppressive. Not to mention if I bring one Nurse she is target priority nemero uno for a Brewie player. And with a 3" range I can't just leave her in the back or protect her very well. She needs to be up near the action to be able to remove conditions. 

I don't know if Brewie is OP at the moment. That aura does look really strong, but I haven't played it. If his crew can really hand out Poison that easy then upping the needed poison to +3 seems the easiest fix if needed. He can still get use of it and still cause problems. I wouldn't shorten the range myself, but even adding a simple Duel or a Discard to avoid might work.

So we have 1 Player that played a Game vs brewie and says it’s oppressive and one player that plays brewie and says it’s not. 

I btw played vs molly and kirai.

let me show you the lists:

moll, NM, kirai, lost Love, Grave golem, forgotten marshal

vs 

brewie 

wesley 

fingers 

moon shinobi 

moon shinobi 

fermented River monk 

fermented River monk 

whiskey golem 

 

So. 

I did really well in terms of removing his Summons until I killed the summoned frontline and got to his core models. The the necrotic machine was super strong vs my whole crew, Lost love healed all the dmg I was doing to the summons and stole the poison on my monks and brewie, so their dmg output dropped from really good (which was needed vs 2 summons with vengeance each turn) to garbage. 

Also ikyrio has shrug off, goryos stop healing and a summoned Drowned sat between kirai and lost love with both have protected Urami and literally made them both unkillable. 

Molly has condition removal aswell on her attack and i hat to factor in hiding behind summons to not limit my dmg output via stopping after the first attack so lethes caress didn’t hurt me. (And i factored in the bonus healing of the crew) 

mit wasn’t an optimal Crew be brewie because there was no von schtook but I Stil had a really hard time and the game was super enjoyable for both players. 

Lost love felt like a key model worth 20ss in that game and necrotic Maschine felt like 10ss. 

When I play ressers and my opponent declares brewie I bring von schtook who Is universally good with models that have upgrades anyways, plus Lost love in any list if I don’t play kirai.

Neverborn has a 2ss upgrade with condition removal and an opportunist keyword that absolutely wrecks tri chi naturally.

Thunders have chiaki and tanuki, Guild have the Proxy, Scribe, Lucius, etc, arc have the effigy, Oxfordian mages who have an aoe condition removal aura... etc. 

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34 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I don't know if Brewie is OP at the moment. That aura does look really strong, but I haven't played it. If his crew can really hand out Poison that easy then upping the needed poison to +3 seems the easiest fix if needed. 

So I find when playing Brewmaster he is either poisoning and controlling your crew or doing damage and other things. I don't find many models can do both at the same time (only Brewmaster and Whiskey golem do both damage and poison without requiring a trigger or hitting higher than stat 4). 

 

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At this point I feel like we are going in circles and over complicating something which is quite simple.

I have made my point: after you consider the sheer amount of poison Brewmaster applies, even after condition removal, an 6" aura on Intoxication is too crippling. 3" is much more appropriate. I'm not suggesting a huge overhaul of his card and mechanics, just a small, simple, change that makes the game more accessible and enjoyable for the opponent.

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the most oppressive thing in brewie's crew is the addition of the Slow aura + :melee2" attacks. More often than not, models just can't do anything significant during their whole activation (not to say game).

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16 hours ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

I suggest you to play brewmaster and look the options you have to work with while trying to adapt to the enemy. He has a strong attack, if he has poison, he has the aura, a lure and a bonus action heal. That’s it. Very squishy for a close range master and also, ad the crew very weak to stunned. 

I don’t understand. The point is that condition removal is one of the major weaknesses of brewie and ur not willing to pay 7ss to attack that weakness? Something in that concept doesn’t sound logic to me. 

Tell me any Resser leader and I will build you a crew that destroys the whole tri chi crew. 

I have spent a lot of games playing Brewmaster during 3e and the majority of the time with relative success, being honest this makes me super happy as I was one of those players that tirelessly tried to make it work for 2e and it just never fully synergised properly. However last night I played a crew that stunned me and quite honestly it was a total shutdown to both the synergies and the auras. a lot of the play style depends on the triggers and bonus actions building up poison slowly. so in summary use stunned against Brewie.

 

I also recognise this is off topic.... on intoxication. If the opposing crew cant get on top of the effects, it becomes to oppressive in my opinion when tied with the two inch engagement.

 

 

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59 minutes ago, Mayt said:

I have spent a lot of games playing Brewmaster during 3e and the majority of the time with relative success, being honest this makes me super happy as I was one of those players that tirelessly tried to make it work for 2e and it just never fully synergised properly. However last night I played a crew that stunned me and quite honestly it was a total shutdown to both the synergies and the auras. a lot of the play style depends on the triggers and bonus actions building up poison slowly. so in summary use stunned against Brewie.

 

I also recognise this is off topic.... on intoxication. If the opposing crew cant get on top of the effects, it becomes to oppressive in my opinion when tied with the two inch engagement.

 

 

I must admit, as someone who watched this game on the table next to me Brewmaster was entirely shut out the game with Von Schtook's stunned. But that seems like an issue with how the stunned condition interacts with Brewmaster rather than Intoxication.

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In my experience triggers are even more common and more important than they were in 2e. Especially with the reduction in dmg across the board. Same with 0 actions. Stun was oppressive enough in 2e when only Zipp had it. In 3e where it’s pretty common I generally don’t rate most models that rely on triggers to do what they are supposed to do and derive their value from it. Too easy to have them just shut down.

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I recognise that once you're int he aura, you may well be boned, but...

Can't you just hide from Brewmaster?

With sufficient terrain, he shouldn't be in a position to lock down more than a few models. Seeing him across the table don't take centre-table schemes, spread out to run schemes, try not to lean on your own aura synergies where possible, etc.

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