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Agent 46 and Inhuman Physiology

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This.

14 minutes ago, trikk said:

I totally agree about uniqueness. But uniqueness and balance aren't on the same scale. But my priorities are on balance, and not uniqueness. Because when you put uniqueness first you usually have to homerule stuff.

 

As for why I don't like hard counters. It creates a loop. Look at M2E. You had Hoff with Armor +1. Then suddenly it turned out, there's a lot of anti-armor so he became garbage. Now he got Adaptive Armor, so anti-anti-armor tech to even be playable.

You had Ox Mages that got the Temporary Shielding and became OP. Now suddenly everyone needed "that cannot be reduced" damage because you either had models that were harder to kill than 8SS henchmen or you had irreducable damage and they died like 4SS minions. This is exactly what I want to avoid. Because either you have "not enough" counters and something dominates the meta or you have too much counters and something becomes garbage because its wholly dependent on one thing.

 

The above example of hiring McMourning and Students of Steel shows a fundamental issue with M3E and hard counters. The whole "we want people to play in theme" thing is flawed. Because you either pick McMourning (16) and 2x Stutend of Steel (16) = 32 SS out of 50 of out-of-keyword models or you have an uphill battle. Or you bring them and I'm screwed. Woohoo, superb fun.

Another example is Pandora. She has decent defensive tech.... unless you bring in 2-3 ruthless/high WP beaters and suddenly she's shit. 

 

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That’s why I have touted ping damage as much as I have. It’s better for me because I have partial benefit from my armor still: it’s better for you because I cannot stun you and rob you of your expensive counter-tech. If this doesn’t gain traction we will have to upgrade straight to ‘constructs with power tokens may use their armor regardless’ and then the irreducible models get cranky that their reason for being is nullified until someone figures out that keyword nullification works and that tech is propagated through the factions once more...

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11 minutes ago, trikk said:

I totally agree about uniqueness. But uniqueness and balance aren't on the same scale. But my priorities are on balance, and not uniqueness. Because when you put uniqueness first you usually have to homerule stuff.

 

As for why I don't like hard counters. It creates a loop. Look at M2E. You had Hoff with Armor +1. Then suddenly it turned out, there's a lot of anti-armor so he became garbage. Now he got Adaptive Armor, so anti-anti-armor tech to even be playable.

You had Ox Mages that got the Temporary Shielding and became OP. Now suddenly everyone needed "that cannot be reduced" damage because you either had models that were harder to kill than 8SS henchmen or you had irreducable damage and they died like 4SS minions. This is exactly what I want to avoid. Because either you have "not enough" counters and something dominates the meta or you have too much counters and something becomes garbage because its wholly dependent on one thing.

 

The above example of hiring McMourning and Students of Steel shows a fundamental issue with M3E and hard counters. The whole "we want people to play in theme" thing is flawed. Because you either pick McMourning (16) and 2x Stutend of Steel (16) = 32 SS out of 50 of out-of-keyword models or you have an uphill battle. Or you bring them and I'm screwed. Woohoo, superb fun.

Another example is Pandora. She has decent defensive tech.... unless you bring in 2-3 ruthless/high WP beaters and suddenly she's shit. 

Exactly the reason I was against keyword hiring from the beginning of people calling for a new edition. 

But the solution is not to get rid of uniqueness of the models for the sake of balance in my opinion.

First of all the Hoffman example is one of the most extreme, together with crews that stick to a very Rock Paper Scissory aproach and are forced to their keyword, like brewmaster. 

Modt of the time that Rock Papier scissor Element of the Game is Limited to a few specific models, like in this case the agent. And that is fine in my opinion, because counterhiring allows for counterplay. 

The opponent brings counter models, ok so the target priorities have changed depending on how high the player values them. 

As long as it’s not the whole crew it’s manageable for both sides and comes down to decisionmaking. 

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Guild into Ressers is an interesting question to begin with. We have a lot of healers and they have several options to make us regret attempting to heal. Lucius and his agent is a safer option just because he sidesteps that question. I don’t think any model outright punishes card manipulation across the table, whether drawing mid-turn or peeking at the deck...and maybe some should have.

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20 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Exactly the reason I was against keyword hiring from the beginning of people calling for a new edition. 

But the solution is not to get rid of uniqueness of the models for the sake of balance in my opinion.

First of all the Hoffman example is one of the most extreme, together with crews that stick to a very Rock Paper Scissory aproach and are forced to their keyword, like brewmaster. 

Modt of the time that Rock Papier scissor Element of the Game is Limited to a few specific models, like in this case the agent. And that is fine in my opinion, because counterhiring allows for counterplay. 

The opponent brings counter models, ok so the target priorities have changed depending on how high the player values them. 

As long as it’s not the whole crew it’s manageable for both sides and comes down to decisionmaking. 

Then we fundamentally disagree.

M2E free for all hiring showed exactly how it looks like. I played with 3 factions and probably 10 different masters in different scheme pools and Arcanists had the same uber-Sandeep crew. 

It makes it unmanagable for newer players, it promotes netlisting and discourages players because its  "Ohh ya, you have to buy that Ironsides box. No, you only need the 3 mages" thing.

 

IMHO the allowance of +1SS cost models is the issue. Not the keyword thing. I'd very much prefer if it was 1 out of keyword model and there would be no hard counters. We debated on it during the Alpha but we were afraid that it will homogenize the crews too much.

 

As for "Hoffman is extreme"

Pandora vs Ruthless

Augmented and Foundry vs OC

Kaeris vs Sonnia

Viks vs Augmented ( I honestly think Viks have a hard time vs Augmented, but Augmented are shit vs OC)

I could probably name a few more.

 

Make Augmented Armor +1 and update their stats so a 8SS hunter is always an 8SS hunter and not sometimes a 12SS hunter and sometimes a 5SS hunter.

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1 hour ago, trikk said:

Then we fundamentally disagree.

M2E free for all hiring showed exactly how it looks like. I played with 3 factions and probably 10 different masters in different scheme pools and Arcanists had the same uber-Sandeep crew. 

It makes it unmanagable for newer players, it promotes netlisting and discourages players because its  "Ohh ya, you have to buy that Ironsides box. No, you only need the 3 mages" thing.

 

IMHO the allowance of +1SS cost models is the issue. Not the keyword thing. I'd very much prefer if it was 1 out of keyword model and there would be no hard counters. We debated on it during the Alpha but we were afraid that it will homogenize the crews too much.

 

As for "Hoffman is extreme"

Pandora vs Ruthless

Augmented and Foundry vs OC

Kaeris vs Sonnia

Viks vs Augmented ( I honestly think Viks have a hard time vs Augmented, but Augmented are shit vs OC)

I could probably name a few more.

 

Make Augmented Armor +1 and update their stats so a 8SS hunter is always an 8SS hunter and not sometimes a 12SS hunter and sometimes a 5SS hunter.

This is absolutely the most terrible suggestion I have ever read in these forums... 

why even bother to have factions then? Why isn’t every crew: master 10 wounds and a greatsword and hench 8wounds Balanced sword and so on? 

Or play chess to begin with... 

take a Chess Board, put Lord chompy Bits to the Queen Spot, Dreamer to the King Spot and play them as normal chess models with aesthetic flavor... 

 

Why does uniqueness promote Netlisting??? Exactly the opposite. 

You can’t even netlist if the hiring pool is open and there is enough Rock Paper Scissors involved because netlists will always be a paper to a scissor because they are public... 

the problem wasn’t that sandeep was unique or Rock Paper Scissors... the Problem was that sandeep was Rock paper or scissor depending on what your opponent was weak to... 

a pandora crew is only weak to ruthless if u play full theme... if I expect a few Ruthless beaters in the enemy crew because I declared pandora, I’m hiring models that don’t rely on terrfying in addition to keyword models and their job oh to kill the ruthless targets before they can pressure pandora. And the enemy tries to do the opposite... that’s called a strategic game!?!?!? 

Pleade stop mistaking the Allstar syndrome with uniqueness or open hiring. 

The allstar syndrome was existent because some models were op, not because you were allowed to hire them in any crew. 

Even the opposite. If you are only allowed to hire your keyword instantly there will e netlists for that keyword to get the best combination do the situation and the keyword with the most op models will be meta. 

1 hour ago, Gnomezilla said:

Guild into Ressers is an interesting question to begin with. We have a lot of healers and they have several options to make us regret attempting to heal. Lucius and his agent is a safer option just because he sidesteps that question. I don’t think any model outright punishes card manipulation across the table, whether drawing mid-turn or peeking at the deck...and maybe some should have.

I killed the agent 46 in 3 Datsue Ba ap with the whisper upgrade.

Its guild vs ressers... there is literally Lady J in guild which is the most Rock paper scissory anti Resser master in the game. 

Her keyword literally converts people into ressers so they can kill them easier... 

From the Resser side to guild there is anti healing and armor ignore. 

Tell me the leader your playing and a crew/model your afraid of and I will build you a list that is doing well vs it/them. 

That is the good thing in malifaux. That listbuilding isn’t just hey I wanna play a crewbox and win tournaments... you actually have to think while hiring...

 

unless it has to be a tournament game for absolute beginners to be at the top tables... then of course every keyword has to be absolutely beginner friendly and hiring should be „always the same set crew“ so the newbies have 0 chance of confusion.. hey if u play against pandora, do this and that in turn 1 and this and that in turn 2 if u play crew x because she has literally the models a,b,c and they can exactly do the following. Have fun, new player. Win games with 0 experience. Super rewarding, such fun. 

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May I suggest to open a new thread in the general topics in OB forum?

Because although I find this discussion very interessting, I think it got more a general discussion about balancing and game design?

But maybe I am wrong, I don't want to stop the discussion...

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i don’t think this will help anything.. I’ll just leave the beta and see what crews have survived the destruction that is going on... 

whatever point we are discussing, in the end the designers decide what is best for the game and if they trust the loudest voice than malifaux is going to be a boring flattened game like every other tabletop. 

Guess what, there are things in this game that are 10 times more operative than the agent 46 and nobody will ever get to know about it until the game releases, because result of people crying for a nerf at every  complex model instantly is that people don’t post their combos anymore. 

Things like the agent should be discussable with several solutions provided etc. And it shouldn’t be handled like: hey 3 people agree it’s strong after they played one game against him, let’s nerf it... 

with the original Argument being that the ability makes him to strong on offense and defense together, a logical diskussion should be concerned about what is the reason. For that, if it is actually true and how it could be changed to push him into a position that doesn’t slow him to be equally as strong in both points. 

Example: the no cheat is strong because it allows controll over the outcome of the most duels. Ok how does it work? The Lucius player had to keep high moderates for the agent to win the most duels, but cannot rely on it sololy because a good focused flip can really really hurt. 

A simple adjustment of lowering his defense to understandard values like 4 or 3 would require a high card to do the same job a moderate provided before. Lucius has a lot of card draw but still likes severes and a lot of his keyword works with discard protections and high tns. So 

it would in fact pressure his hand and make the agent less oppressive because you would actually be able to hit him back without cheating more often or pressure Luciuses resources to a point the crew really suffers from it. 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

i don’t think this will help anything.. I’ll just leave the beta and see what crews have survived the destruction that is going on... 

whatever point we are discussing, in the end the designers decide what is best for the game and if they trust the loudest voice than malifaux is going to be a boring flattened game like every other tabletop. 

Guess what, there are things in this game that are 10 times more operative than the agent 46 and nobody will ever get to know about it until the game releases, because result of people crying for a nerf at every  complex model instantly is that people don’t post their combos anymore. 

Things like the agent should be discussable with several solutions provided etc. And it shouldn’t be handled like: hey 3 people agree it’s strong after they played one game against him, let’s nerf it... 

with the original Argument being that the ability makes him to strong on offense and defense together, a logical diskussion should be concerned about what is the reason. For that, if it is actually true and how it could be changed to push him into a position that doesn’t slow him to be equally as strong in both points. 

Example: the no cheat is strong because it allows controll over the outcome of the most duels. Ok how does it work? The Lucius player had to keep high moderates for the agent to win the most duels, but cannot rely on it sololy because a good focused flip can really really hurt. 

A simple adjustment of lowering his defense to understandard values like 4 or 3 would require a high card to do the same job a moderate provided before. Lucius has a lot of card draw but still likes severes and a lot of his keyword works with discard protections and high tns. So 

it would in fact pressure his hand and make the agent less oppressive because you would actually be able to hit him back without cheating more often or pressure Luciuses resources to a point the crew really suffers from it. 

Since we have no real impact about the final solutions, we can only do a brainstorm of solutions and the designers will decide if its an issue and how do they want to resolve it. 

The fact testers see an issue doesn't mean they see/know a solution.

 

I agree that Agent is not the most pressing thing to change but I disagree that we can only handle major stuff because whats "major" and whats "minor" is pretty individual.

Also, sorry, but I can't playtest 35ish masters because I have a life. So I comment on stuff I know/played with/against.

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Relying on luck to hit him, while your opponent is able to cheat doesn't seem fair at all. 

He is a henchman, so he can negate even successful hits via soulstones. 

Being able to cheat against him discarding a card in the process (maybe even with some ability for him to benefit from it) would be much more preferable 

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Card-draw already gives you a control hand strength advantage, being able to negate defensive abilities by discarding a card makes card-draw crews vastly more effective - I don't think that is a good idea.

Agent 46 doesn't do anything other than stab things.

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