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WildRose94

Agent 46 and Inhuman Physiology

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15 minutes ago, trikk said:

I don't know if you know, but Blasts don't work from friendly models. 

He usually has Shielded 2 and I would definitely give him LLC and he's a henchman so pinging him down is also an issue. 

And I assume my opponent is not dumb enough to stand his almost-unhittable model next to the Df3 dude that you can blast from ;)

Jap, forgot about that new Blasts rules. Sorry for that.

Armour and Shielded can be ignored.

 

And as I told you, in my last game he was killed by a desperate merc....but of course that's not representative.

 

 

OK, let's see to act on your suggestion:

I think raising his costs to 10SS would not change anything in my oppinion.

The Question is, why do have the Designers given him this ability? I think they would like to have a model, that has less wounds than other Henchmen but a good survivability, which cannot be ignored by other abilities or just by Focus...

I think, instead of Inhuman Physiology,  another option would be giving him something like Betrayal (like The Scribe), raise his wounds to 9 and give him Hard to Kill.

Is there an ability, which forces the enemy to discard a card to cheat against a model without a range restriction? That would maybe be it...

What do you think?

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Qracy said:

Jap, forgot about that new Blasts rules. Sorry for that.

Armour and Shielded can be ignored.

By Analyze Weakness? Good luck hitting him with that with Stealth and Inhuman Physiology

 

31 minutes ago, Qracy said:

And as I told you, in my last game he was killed by a desperate merc....but of course that's not representative.

Yes, you can get unlucky and Desperate Merc are a joke. Compare their shooting to Pistoleros or even Monster Hunters that are 2SS more expensive. They shoot almost as good as 6SS Riflemen and have Rapid Fire included and ignore cover instead of concealment ;). I lost mine due to a Wokou Raider once as :+flipStat 6 hurt him a bit but I didn't give him LLC.

 

31 minutes ago, Qracy said:

I think, instead of Inhuman Physiology,  another option would be giving him something like Betrayal (like The Scribe), raise his wounds to 9 and give him Hard to Kill.

I'd give him "discard to cheat fate against him" and raise his Df to 6 instead of HtK. The 9 Wds for 10SS would be ok, 8 for 9SS is debatable)

 

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19 minutes ago, trikk said:

I'd give him "discard to cheat fate against him" and raise his Df to 6 instead of HtK. The 9 Wds for 10SS would be ok, 8 for 9SS is debatable)

 

Concerning the ability, I think that would be a consensus.

Concerning the wounds, I would not agree. Look at the Judge: 10SS for 10 Wounds + HTK + HTW

I Think 9 Wounds for 9 SS would be fair, if you nerf his inhuman physiology.

 

Or, what about something like "Hold'em" just the other way around?

So, "discard to cheat fate against him" + 8 Wounds + "Your weakness is my strength: If a model cheats fate in an opposed duel with this model, this model heals +1. This happens after resolving the duel and even if this model would be killed." for 9SS.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Qracy said:

Concerning the ability, I think that would be a consensus.

Concerning the wounds, I would not agree. Look at the Judge: 10SS for 10 Wounds + HTK + HTW

I Think 9 Wounds for 9 SS would be fair, if you nerf his inhuman physiology.

Judge has Df5 and no discard-to-cheat. Its worth the 1 Wd +  Htk+ HtW.

Judge is more of a tank. Easy to hit. hard to take down. This guy should be the opposite. Easy to take down but requires a lot of resources to get hit. I'm not sold on the wounds but I definitely think even with the extra wound he'd be more managable than he is now.

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Or instead/additionally:

Demise(This is my fate): If this model is killed and the enemy has cheated during the duel or damage flip, this model is not killed and heals 1.

or like the Midnight Stalker:

Demise (Eternal): Once per Turn. After this model is killed, it may discard a card. If it does so, it Heals 4.
 

 

That would go in a similar direction, but you have a chance to conter: Either don't cheat or use an Attack action that ignores Demise Abilities.

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Open beta playtsting.... where people cry to nerf everything that isn’t a straight forward dude with a sword and def 5... 

srsly get creative, use ur minds and u will find ways to deal with him. The point of a Lucius crew is controll, so of course the only real beatstick in the crew is more controlly than a augmented beatstick or a nephilim. Thanks the point. 

It’s a good ability which is nice and thematic and asks the opponent questions. Which is exactly Lucius playstyle. 

If ur an opponent that doesn’t really have answers to that kind of questions, maybe ur just not really trying or not creative or just not very good vs that kind of playstyle.... 

there is a lot of counterplay against the agent.

first of all, obeys need line of sight.

also, m3e has lots of indirect damage. Stampede, misery, blade dance, blasts, veangence, black blood, pulses, etc.

and there are plenty of good options to hit without cheating: 

rig the deck, focus, high stats, intuition, mass attacks, the old ways, obeying Lucius models to hit the agent, limiting his cheating via betrayal kind of auras (betrayal and arcane emissary aura) 

and it’s not like the agent Auto hits and murders everyone. He has to deal with minus flips aswell and he doesn’t copy any plus flips from other actions. 

Honestly this movent of „I don’t immediately find a solution, so my solution is to go to the forums and cry till it’s nerfed“ just ruins Malifaux. 

80% of the Games beaters are 3/4/5(6) stat 6 with basically a few minimum difference triggers already... stop making the Game more homogeneous, it’s already super boring compared to m2e when it comes to model choices. 

Competitive players can’t even post any really good combos in the forums because there would be 10 people instantly crying about how op that would be... 

that kind of behavior and the behavior that leads to it hurts any progress the beta should bring to the game. 

The goal is to balance m3e, not flatten it till it’s 7  models vs 7 differently looking but rulewise equal models.

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10 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Open beta playtsting.... where people cry to nerf everything that isn’t a straight forward dude with a sword and def 5... 

srsly get creative, use ur minds and u will find ways to deal with him. The point of a Lucius crew is controll, so of course the only real beatstick in the crew is more controlly than a augmented beatstick or a nephilim. Thanks the point. 

It’s a good ability which is nice and thematic and asks the opponent questions. Which is exactly Lucius playstyle. 

If ur an opponent that doesn’t really have answers to that kind of questions, maybe ur just not really trying or not creative or just not very good vs that kind of playstyle.... 

there is a lot of counterplay against the agent.

first of all, obeys need line of sight.

also, m3e has lots of indirect damage. Stampede, misery, blade dance, blasts, veangence, black blood, pulses, etc.

and there are plenty of good options to hit without cheating: 

rig the deck, focus, high stats, intuition, mass attacks, the old ways, obeying Lucius models to hit the agent, limiting his cheating via betrayal kind of auras (betrayal and arcane emissary aura) 

and it’s not like the agent Auto hits and murders everyone. He has to deal with minus flips aswell and he doesn’t copy any plus flips from other actions. 

Honestly this movent of „I don’t immediately find a solution, so my solution is to go to the forums and cry till it’s nerfed“ just ruins Malifaux. 

80% of the Games beaters are 3/4/5(6) stat 6 with basically a few minimum difference triggers already... stop making the Game more homogeneous, it’s already super boring compared to m2e when it comes to model choices. 

Competitive players can’t even post any really good combos in the forums because there would be 10 people instantly crying about how op that would be... 

that kind of behavior and the behavior that leads to it hurts any progress the beta should bring to the game. 

The goal is to balance m3e, not flatten it till it’s 7  models vs 7 differently looking but rulewise equal models.

Thank you, that is 100% what I meant.

I absolutly agree!

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That’s pretty much the exact attitude and argument of a good number of players and testers in 2e betas. The models they got their way on? The broken models that showed up in every single list in 2e.

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56 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Open beta playtsting.... where people cry to nerf everything that isn’t a straight forward dude with a sword and def 5... 

srsly get creative, use ur minds and u will find ways to deal with him. The point of a Lucius crew is controll, so of course the only real beatstick in the crew is more controlly than a augmented beatstick or a nephilim. Thanks the point. 

It’s a good ability which is nice and thematic and asks the opponent questions. Which is exactly Lucius playstyle. 

If ur an opponent that doesn’t really have answers to that kind of questions, maybe ur just not really trying or not creative or just not very good vs that kind of playstyle.... 

there is a lot of counterplay against the agent.

first of all, obeys need line of sight.

also, m3e has lots of indirect damage. Stampede, misery, blade dance, blasts, veangence, black blood, pulses, etc.

and there are plenty of good options to hit without cheating: 

rig the deck, focus, high stats, intuition, mass attacks, the old ways, obeying Lucius models to hit the agent, limiting his cheating via betrayal kind of auras (betrayal and arcane emissary aura) 

and it’s not like the agent Auto hits and murders everyone. He has to deal with minus flips aswell and he doesn’t copy any plus flips from other actions. 

Honestly this movent of „I don’t immediately find a solution, so my solution is to go to the forums and cry till it’s nerfed“ just ruins Malifaux. 

80% of the Games beaters are 3/4/5(6) stat 6 with basically a few minimum difference triggers already... stop making the Game more homogeneous, it’s already super boring compared to m2e when it comes to model choices. 

Competitive players can’t even post any really good combos in the forums because there would be 10 people instantly crying about how op that would be... 

that kind of behavior and the behavior that leads to it hurts any progress the beta should bring to the game. 

The goal is to balance m3e, not flatten it till it’s 7  models vs 7 differently looking but rulewise equal models.

The old "Get gud" argument is the best argument possible. I love it.

 

I'm a 99% competitive player. I played maxed out crews in M2E and went to the UK 4 times. The reason I find and talk about those combos is because I don't want the game to be decided upon master selection. And right now it kind of is. Its like rock-paper. There's a high chance you'll both pick paper and have an even chance, but there is a pretty good chance you'll have a rock and they'll have paper and suddenly you're in a very big disadvantage. And you know what competitive players do in that case? They pick the papierest of the paper crews where you can't be the rock. And this will lead to picking the most versatile master you can. And bam, all-star crews again.

 

I also don't want to tell the players I play against "Oh this guy? Well, you should have picked Master B, then you could have killed him." because its a shitty thing to say and it doesn't encourage getting into the game as much as getting tabled by M2E Viks turn 2 didn't. 

 

So if I can pick between a homogenous and balanced game and the new all-star teams, I'll go with the former 10/10

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39 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Open beta playtsting.... where people cry to nerf everything that isn’t a straight forward dude with a sword and def 5... 

srsly get creative, use ur minds and u will find ways to deal with him. The point of a Lucius crew is controll, so of course the only real beatstick in the crew is more controlly than a augmented beatstick or a nephilim. Thanks the point. 

It’s a good ability which is nice and thematic and asks the opponent questions. Which is exactly Lucius playstyle. 

If ur an opponent that doesn’t really have answers to that kind of questions, maybe ur just not really trying or not creative or just not very good vs that kind of playstyle.... 

there is a lot of counterplay against the agent.

first of all, obeys need line of sight.

also, m3e has lots of indirect damage. Stampede, misery, blade dance, blasts, veangence, black blood, pulses, etc.

and there are plenty of good options to hit without cheating: 

rig the deck, focus, high stats, intuition, mass attacks, the old ways, obeying Lucius models to hit the agent, limiting his cheating via betrayal kind of auras (betrayal and arcane emissary aura) 

and it’s not like the agent Auto hits and murders everyone. He has to deal with minus flips aswell and he doesn’t copy any plus flips from other actions. 

Honestly this movent of „I don’t immediately find a solution, so my solution is to go to the forums and cry till it’s nerfed“ just ruins Malifaux. 

80% of the Games beaters are 3/4/5(6) stat 6 with basically a few minimum difference triggers already... stop making the Game more homogeneous, it’s already super boring compared to m2e when it comes to model choices. 

Competitive players can’t even post any really good combos in the forums because there would be 10 people instantly crying about how op that would be... 

that kind of behavior and the behavior that leads to it hurts any progress the beta should bring to the game. 

The goal is to balance m3e, not flatten it till it’s 7  models vs 7 differently looking but rulewise equal models.

If this is directed at the initial post then firstly the surgestions I made I felt were more lateral change as arguments could be made that making your opponent loss 2 cards (1 for discarding 1 for the cheat) to cheat is better than just no cheat as it gives an element of control over your opponent s hand similarly negative flips to all opossed duel with it can be argued as stronger as they can't cheat and have to take the lower value (if they don't focus). It was just to enable some counter play as I found it a really strong ability.

secoundly my main aim was to see if other people also Had an issue or if I was barking up the wrong tree. Like I said in the post, I had played 1 game against and hadn't answers to it so I was also asking for advise.

thirdly are you saying we should just leave everything as is and not raise concerns about abilities we think are too strong? In that case why bother with the beta just release it now. 

Im not saying this ability is broken to all hell, I was raising a concern, surgesting a solution to said concern and asking if others had the same concern. If the developers decide that the ability is fine as is then my concerns are unfounded, but I do think that I should raise any concerns I have while playtesting wether that be this model is to good or this model needs to be made better.

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2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Buff his stats so he has the edge in every duel but prevent both players from cheating.

I understand argument of him being to cheap but this makes him totally random and luck dependant. 

This is not a Bayou my friend :)

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8 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Let’s see if I can get you to disagree, Peacekeepers should get +1 defense and Madam Sybelle isn’t worth 10SS.

PK doesn't seem worth it when you have Brutal Emissary that lacks the Harpoon and has Armor +1 instead of +2 , but Df6, Mv6, Terryfying and HtK with a Healing Aura and Crowd Control.

I'm not going to get into the whole Madam Sybelle thing, but a rough estimate I'd drop her wounds a bit and make her 8SS (I don't know Ressers too well)

 

2 minutes ago, Atoli said:

I understand argument of him being to cheap but this makes him totally random and luck dependant. 

This is not a Bayou my friend :)

I think its more of idea brainstorming. I think its pretty cool if you spam ideas and it might sparkle something in the designers, if they findit problematic.

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On-topic, Inhuman Phsyiology is just VERY powerful on offense as well as defense and the Agent with with Slightly Different Model Number only needed a defense ability. At one point I was facing snipers—shooting models, tissue paper models!—with this and shielding such as lawyers could provide, and it took what was left of my crew a turn and a half to remove them both as they removed my models with impunity.

 

As for the peacekeeper, I have decided. I want it to be the Wp stompybot that will not be moved. Wp7, keep the miserable defense, but have one tank that won’t go beep-booping across the field when a wayward Resser dame shows a bit of leg. (And that doesn’t even matter so much if Hoffman truly is one of the rocks of which @trikk  spoke. If I wanted to spend my time polishing a turd, I’d wear makeup.)

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7 minutes ago, trikk said:

The old "Get gud" argument is the best argument possible. I love it.

 

I'm a 99% competitive player. I played maxed out crews in M2E and went to the UK 4 times. The reason I find and talk about those combos is because I don't the game to be decided upon master selection. And right now it kind of is. Its like rock-paper. There's a high chance you'll both pick paper and have an even chance, but there is a pretty good chance you'll have a rock and they'll have paper and suddenly you're in a very big disadvantage. And you know what competitive players do in that case? They pick the papierest of the paper crews where you can't be the rock. And this will lead to picking the most versatile master you can. And bam, all-star crews again.

 

I also don't want to tell the players I play against "Oh this guy? Well, you should have picked Master B, then you could have killed him." because its a shitty thing to say and it doesn't encourage getting into the game as much as getting tabled by M2E Viks turn 2 didn't. 

 

So if I can pick between a homogenous and balanced game and the new all-star teams, I'll go with the former 10/10

 

There are crews you play against new players and there are crews you keep hidden until those players have a better understanding about the game... would you introduce a player with m2e pandora? Was she balanced and Unique master? Yes.

The agent is in no way an allstar... he functions well if played in the elite crew. 

M3e works with declaring the leader first.

A general had easy access to mounted knights and the enemy was a legion of phalanx troops, and the general would still bring mostly mounted troops instead of paying extra for troops that were good against phalanx, that would make the general one thing: bad at his job.

if your opponent declares Hoffman and you declared a leader who has absolutly no anti armor tech in his keyword. You can hire anti armor pieces from your faction. And if you don’t do that, yes then it’s Rock Paper Scissors and ur the Paper to his scissor. 

But honestly if u refuse to go out of keyword after leaders have been declared and then become a Paper to a scissor and then ask to nerf the scissor. It’s nothing else then bad play.

playing the hiring game very poorly. The hiring is actually part of the strategic game, not only a choice about who looks the coolest or who is my favorite.... this has also nothing to do with allstars. 

If there are options in your faction to counter a mechanic that would otherwise be good against your crew. Use those options instead of crying for a nerf.

hell yeah im hiring 16ss mcmourning and 2 students of steel into a Seamus crew against Hoffman. Hell yeah im hiring honeypot models if the enemy declares Lucius and I declared whatever thunders master without rig the deck. That’s not allstaring that’s not powerplay that’s not breaking the game... it’s Smart. Simply smart hiring.

and no I’m not crying about how I wanted to play asami and then the enemy forced me to pick honeypot models which I don’t wanna play today... because it’s not a storytelling pen and paper... it’s a tournament viable strategic game with smart hiring options.

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12 minutes ago, WildRose94 said:

If this is directed at the initial post then firstly the surgestions I made I felt were more lateral change as arguments could be made that making your opponent loss 2 cards (1 for discarding 1 for the cheat) to cheat is better than just no cheat as it gives an element of control over your opponent s hand similarly negative flips to all opossed duel with it can be argued as stronger as they can't cheat and have to take the lower value (if they don't focus). It was just to enable some counter play as I found it a really strong ability.

secoundly my main aim was to see if other people also Had an issue or if I was barking up the wrong tree. Like I said in the post, I had played 1 game against and hadn't answers to it so I was also asking for advise.

thirdly are you saying we should just leave everything as is and not raise concerns about abilities we think are too strong? In that case why bother with the beta just release it now. 

Im not saying this ability is broken to all hell, I was raising a concern, surgesting a solution to said concern and asking if others had the same concern. If the developers decide that the ability is fine as is then my concerns are unfounded, but I do think that I should raise any concerns I have while playtesting wether that be this model is to good or this model needs to be made better.

Wasn’t directed at you. 

Im saying if a model is to strong at a specific point in the game changes that have to be made should be trying to keep the uniqueness of the model rather then making it more like others so people have an easier time dealing with it.

a certain strong mechanic has more identity for the model than good stats or overall tankyness... 

if the agent really needs change, which he doesn’t in my opinion (I’ve play with and against him) then lower his wounds, take his deaf to 4 or weaken one of his sides in the game, but please don’t destroy the one core ability that makes him Unique. 

Guild has tons of generic beaters. And Lucius over all doesn’t need to have one too.

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8 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

There are crews you play against new players and there are crews you keep hidden until those players have a better understanding about the game... would you introduce a player with m2e pandora? Was she balanced and Unique master? Yes.

The agent is in no way an allstar... he functions well if played in the elite crew. 

M3e works with declaring the leader first.

A general had easy access to mounted knights and the enemy was a legion of phalanx troops, and the general would still bring mostly mounted troops instead of paying extra for troops that were good against phalanx, that would make the general one thing: bad at his job.

if your opponent declares Hoffman and you declared a leader who has absolutly no anti armor tech in his keyword. You can hire anti armor pieces from your faction. And if you don’t do that, yes then it’s Rock Paper Scissors and ur the Paper to his scissor. 

But honestly if u refuse to go out of keyword after leaders have been declared and then become a Paper to a scissor and then ask to nerf the scissor. It’s nothing else then bad play.

playing the hiring game very poorly. The hiring is actually part of the strategic game, not only a choice about who looks the coolest or who is my favorite.... this has also nothing to do with allstars. 

If there are options in your faction to counter a mechanic that would otherwise be good against your crew. Use those options instead of crying for a nerf.

hell yeah im hiring 16ss mcmourning and 2 students of steel into a Seamus crew against Hoffman. Hell yeah im hiring honeypot models if the enemy declares Lucius and I declared whatever thunders master without rig the deck. That’s not allstaring that’s not powerplay that’s not breaking the game... it’s Smart. Simply smart hiring.

and no I’m not crying about how I wanted to play asami and then the enemy forced me to pick honeypot models which I don’t wanna play today... because it’s not a storytelling pen and paper... it’s a tournament viable strategic game with smart hiring options.

You kind of proved my point. That's exactly why Hoffman was competetive garbage in M2E and that's why he will be even more garbage in M3E. Because everybody has means to counter him. And this will end up with getting the least-counterable-master or the most versatile one. Because playing Malifaux with 1 versatile master is a lot better than playing it with 3 counterable ones. 

That's exactly what happened in M2E. You had the most stable and versatile master (Nico/Kirai, Nellie, Collodi, Hamelin, Sandeep, Somer, Shenlong) being played in 95% of top player matchups.

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Teapot That’s a terrible argument. You’re arguing for intentional tiered masters. If I’m introducing a new player to the game I should absolutely be able to that with any master. If there are awful mechanics that will chase a new player away if they face them then they shouldn’t exist. You’re arguing for beginner masters and advanced masters.

Trikk, Stop It! Stop being right and ninja’ing me at the same time!

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It's funny, but I agree with both of you, not having a solution to that:

On the one hand, I want to keep that unique abilities, that lead to the richness of diversity in Malifaux. With M3E, a little bit of that was lost, because of the unification of abilities, which is ok, because it gets more transparency. Therefore I vote for keeping Agent 46's abilities as they are.

On the other hand, I understand Trikk's argument: The abilities of single models, which seem balanced when you just look at them, can change the Meta of the game system and lead in the worst case to the scenario, Trikk has showed up.

I think you will never get a perfectly balanced tabletop, because there are too many variables (e.g. the game board and terrain setup) you cannot take into concern.

And there are not only competitive players out there. But you should balance the game in a way, that it keeps it uniqueness and a vital meta...

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The problem is the idea that models need special snowflake abilities to be worth it. They don’t. That doesn’t mean special snowflake abilities can’t exist but perception is as important as balance.

In support of my position I’ll mention 1 model that was getting, pretty much word for word, the exact same arguments teapot is making for agent 46. 2E pre nerf Leveticus.

The exact same arguments of “you can deal with him, you just need to hire differently and play differently, you just need to understand him and he isn’t that hard”, lead to a model that was the unquestionably best master for a solid portion of M2E’s existence, and needed to be hit with the nerf stick pretty hard.

And then because everyone felt he needed to stick with his special snowflake rules that ignored and turned on it’s head the standard way models interacted with the game he pretty much became binary, either all those special rules added up to wrecking the game experience, or try didn’t and he didn’t do enough on the table to be worth it. 

Better to be strong and use the expected ways the game works than to be a special snowflake that doesn’t. 

Make the ability so the first attack each turn can’t be cheated. Make it an aura so the range can be toyed with.

Make it have a cost to utilize and or avoid.

Make it only affect a specific kind of attack. 

Make it so he can’t be obeyed and can’t get fast (less good solution for a variety of reasons)

It’s just too all encompassing for a model that has as large an impact on the table as he does and doesn’t promote interaction during play, which is what I find most people who play games of this type enjoy.

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19 minutes ago, trikk said:

You kind of proved my point. That's exactly why Hoffman was competetive garbage in M2E and that's why he will be even more garbage in M3E. Because everybody has means to counter him. And this will end up with getting the least-counterable-master or the most versatile one. Because playing Malifaux with 1 versatile master is a lot better than playing it with 3 counterable ones. 

That's exactly what happened in M2E. You had the most stable and versatile master (Nico/Kirai, Nellie, Collodi, Hamelin, Sandeep, Somer, Shenlong) being played in 95% of top player matchups.

And where is the problem with the agent then? If Lucius is declared u can be 99% certain there will be an agent in the crew. And then you counter him, problem solved, no nerf needed. Instead nerf the allstar Allrounder versatile masters so they don’t do everyone’s job at the same level as the specialists do. 

The problem of m2e wasn’t that raspy, kaeris, Colette, mei and Marcus were so counterable, the problem was that sandeep was better than them at all of their jobs at once. 

21 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Teapot That’s a terrible argument. You’re arguing for intentional tiered masters. If I’m introducing a new player to the game I should absolutely be able to that with any master. If there are awful mechanics that will chase a new player away if they face them then they shouldn’t exist. You’re arguing for beginner masters and advanced masters.

Trikk, Stop It! Stop being right and ninja’ing me at the same time!

The reason of balancing a game is for the end content to be tournament viable and fair. 

A new player will understand a Nekima or lady j but he won’t understand pandora or Colette or Lucius or whatever co pled master design at first until he played a fair bit. 

That is exactly the point I’m trying to make. Its ok if new players put a crew on the table and do not instantly win. 

If I tell someone hey I’m new to m2e, I love pandora... how can I play her and he says to me, she’s a difficult master, start with Lilith or expect to have some games with problems at first, until you get the strategic concept of the crew... either I’m saying ok I play nekima or I say ok I’ll learn pandora... that’s totally fine and way better then destroying Pandora’s mechanics to a point where she feels like a slightly different Nekima and everyone understands her concept instantly but she boring and not unique at all...

 

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11 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

The problem is the idea that models need special snowflake abilities to be worth it. They don’t. That doesn’t mean special snowflake abilities can’t exist but perception is as important as balance.

In support of my position I’ll mention 1 model that was getting, pretty much word for word, the exact same arguments teapot is making for agent 46. 2E pre nerf Leveticus.

The exact same arguments of “you can deal with him, you just need to hire differently and play differently, you just need to understand him and he isn’t that hard”, lead to a model that was the unquestionably best master for a solid portion of M2E’s existence, and needed to be hit with the nerf stick pretty hard.

And then because everyone felt he needed to stick with his special snowflake rules that ignored and turned on it’s head the standard way models interacted with the game he pretty much became binary, either all those special rules added up to wrecking the game experience, or try didn’t and he didn’t do enough on the table to be worth it. 

Better to be strong and use the expected ways the game works than to be a special snowflake that doesn’t. 

Make the ability so the first attack each turn can’t be cheated. Make it an aura so the range can be toyed with.

Make it have a cost to utilize and or avoid.

Make it only affect a specific kind of attack. 

Make it so he can’t be obeyed and can’t get fast (less good solution for a variety of reasons)

It’s just too all encompassing for a model that has as large an impact on the table as he does and doesn’t promote interaction during play, which is what I find most people who play games of this type enjoy.

Or just drop his def to 4 or 3 or 2 and solve his safety instantly. And let him be a snowflake. 

Because beeing Unique is not actually a bad thing in character design. It’s actually the most wanted Aspekt of any character design. And yes character design is visualized by aesthetics and ingame mechanics and beeing unique in both points is a sign for a strong character design. At least for named characters like the agent. 

Being a snowflake is a good thing, it draws attention and identification from customers. The key is to make snowflake abilities possible while balancing the power. It’s harder than your suggested balancing method but it’s deeper and more rewarding. 

Edit: btw m2e wasn’t terrible if you take aside absolutly top end meta with sandeep nicodem etc. 

m2e was a brilliant game and a loooot of it was due to having a whole lot of super unique characters.

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That’s not been my experience. Mine has been when a player says they want to play x master as a new player and the one they have chosen is a very complex master and are recommended against it and to play something else instead they either don’t play or play they master they want and get frustrated and quit, or they are dedicated enough to bash their head into the wall over and over and eventually learn it. I’d rather keep all players rather than force them through a staged learning system.

Your snowflake example requires large amounts of mediocre models that exist only to not be taken and to make snowflake models more exceptional, this again leading to all star lists once again. I’ll take a hard pass on that. 

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1 minute ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

That’s not been my experience. Mine has been when a player says they want to play x master as a new player and the one they have chosen is a very complex master and are recommended against it and to play something else instead they either don’t play or play they master they want and get frustrated and quit, or they are dedicated enough to bash their head into the wall over and over and eventually learn it. I’d rather keep all players rather than force them through a staged learning system.

And then there are games like battlecon, where the game itself puts characters in difficulty levels and it’s perfectly fine and transparent to everyone that a more difficult master isn’t exactly more powerful than easy ones but harder to learn, and people start worth easy to mediocre ones and work their way up to the hard ones. 

I started with Tara, followed with pandora, Zoraida and Colette.

I lost my first 30 games, several of them 10-0 because I kept playing vs the most competitive ruthless player in our community. And I loved it. Malifaux was actually the first game ever that I enjoyed losing in, because I leaned something about the game and my crew every time. I know a lot of people who feel the same way about the feeling of losing in Malifaux. It’s actually different if your los8ng with a simple crew and all you can see is how there was nothing you could have done or it was the flips bad.... 

and if you lose with a complex crew and you instantly see what you did wrong and that there is room to improve.

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29 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Or just drop his def to 4 or 3 or 2 and solve his safety instantly. And let him be a snowflake. 

Because beeing Unique is not actually a bad thing in character design. It’s actually the most wanted Aspekt of any character design. And yes character design is visualized by aesthetics and ingame mechanics and beeing unique in both points is a sign for a strong character design. At least for named characters like the agent. 

Being a snowflake is a good thing, it draws attention and identification from customers. The key is to make snowflake abilities possible while balancing the power. It’s harder than your suggested balancing method but it’s deeper and more rewarding. 

Edit: btw m2e wasn’t terrible if you take aside absolutly top end meta with sandeep nicodem etc. 

m2e was a brilliant game and a loooot of it was due to having a whole lot of super unique characters.

I totally agree about uniqueness. But uniqueness and balance aren't on the same scale. But my priorities are on balance, and not uniqueness. Because when you put uniqueness first you usually have to homerule stuff.

 

As for why I don't like hard counters. It creates a loop. Look at M2E. You had Hoff with Armor +1. Then suddenly it turned out, there's a lot of anti-armor so he became garbage. Now he got Adaptive Armor, so anti-anti-armor tech to even be playable.

You had Ox Mages that got the Temporary Shielding and became OP. Now suddenly everyone needed "that cannot be reduced" damage because you either had models that were harder to kill than 8SS henchmen or you had irreducable damage and they died like 4SS minions. This is exactly what I want to avoid. Because either you have "not enough" counters and something dominates the meta or you have too much counters and something becomes garbage because its wholly dependent on one thing.

 

The above example of hiring McMourning and Students of Steel shows a fundamental issue with M3E and hard counters. The whole "we want people to play in theme" thing is flawed. Because you either pick McMourning (16) and 2x Stutend of Steel (16) = 32 SS out of 50 of out-of-keyword models or you have an uphill battle. Or you bring them and I'm screwed. Woohoo, superb fun.

Another example is Pandora. She has decent defensive tech.... unless you bring in 2-3 ruthless/high WP beaters and suddenly she's shit. 

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