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WildRose94

Agent 46 and Inhuman Physiology

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I played a game against it last night and man is this thing a pain in the but. Inhuman physiology made him almost imposable to kill or defend against.

one time I had a positive Df flip against him, flipped two 3 and he flipped a 13 and I couldn't mitigate the result at all  to put him on :-flipfor damage and he ended up flipping a server for 5 damage. on the other hand I was attacking him with a :+flipand +2 states due to him being injured, won the duel initially 9 vs 7, and my opponent cheated in a 12 and I couldn't drop the red joker in my hand to force it through. its like my opponent was flipping jokers every time.

I world prefer it if the ability was

Inhuman Physiology: Enemy models suffer :-flipduring opposed duels with this model.

this still gives the ability of not being able to cheat due to being on negative flips but allows counter play of using focused to get to a straight flip and being able to cheat.

or

Inhuman Physiology: Enemy models must discard a card to Cheat Fate during opposed duels with this model.

either of this changes would still keep him strong both in terms of offense and defence but allows some counter play from his opponent.

what have other peoples experience been with it? like I said only played 1 game against it but found it supper obnoxious.

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1 minute ago, WildRose94 said:

Inhuman Physiology: Enemy models must discard a card to Cheat Fate during opposed duels with this model.

With this change he'd definitely need a buff. He's low HP with Df5 and has to be close to the enemy.

2 minutes ago, WildRose94 said:

Inhuman Physiology: Enemy models suffer :-flipduring opposed duels with this model.

With Focus staying between turns he'd also need a buff to his defenses.

 

Althought I agree that the current iteration is kind of oppresive. Mine either survived the whole game in the middle of the enemy crew or got 3 shotted by a Wokou Raider.

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In my last game playing Lucius against the Vics, a Desperate Mercenery (!!!) killed my Agent 46 in Melee.

In another game - a Mirror Match Lucius vs. Lucius, both Agent 46 survived, but also did not hand out a lot of Damage by themselve.

Of course, this ability is strong, but I don't like the idea to streamline every ability.

There should be models within all factions, which are a problem for the enemy to solve.

Of course, these should be limited in number (in this case, being a Henchman, Elite und 9 Pts. is a limitation in itself).

 

And there are enough means against Models like this: Everything with indirect damage (e.g. Blasts or the Ricochet Trigger), Shockwaves and all other Abilities, which force an enemy into a simple duel, blocking charge lanes with Severe/Blocking Markers etc...

Because Focus not ending at the end of the turn, all :-flipon Duels are not that difficult to turn into a straight than it was in M2E (yes, I am looking at you Midnight Stalker).

I would not change Agent 46 / the ability in General.

 

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In my games he hasn't been so strong that it has mattered.  Hes tough, but certainly not unstoppable.  Plus flips on attacks against him are very effective, because you will spend down your hand.

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2 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

In my games he hasn't been so strong that it has mattered.  Hes tough, but certainly not unstoppable.  Plus flips on attacks against him are very effective, because you will spend down your hand.

Yes, that is my experience, too.

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It’s a scalpel Model with a scalpel ability in elite, which is a squishy Controlly crew. There are ways to get around inhuman physiology. Shockwaves, demise abilities, blade dance, stampede, vengeance, rig the deck, focus and good stats, the old ways... 

the Agent is in a good Place, has his strengths vs direct targeting and crews who Sololy rely on that but Is weak vs others. 

Play a few more games vs him and the Lucius crew and you will find ways and get to know how to kill him. 

I killed him with Datsue Ba and the whisper in 2 activations for example. 

Wong is really good vs him, pandora kirai etc etc etc 

he is a thematically fitting very good model but really doesn’t need a nerf, especially not while he is the central and only scalpel in elite. 

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15 hours ago, Qracy said:

In my last game playing Lucius against the Vics, a Desperate Mercenery (!!!) killed my Agent 46 in Melee.

In another game - a Mirror Match Lucius vs. Lucius, both Agent 46 survived, but also did not hand out a lot of Damage by themselve.

Of course, this ability is strong, but I don't like the idea to streamline every ability.

There should be models within all factions, which are a problem for the enemy to solve.

Of course, these should be limited in number (in this case, being a Henchman, Elite und 9 Pts. is a limitation in itself).

 

And there are enough means against Models like this: Everything with indirect damage (e.g. Blasts or the Ricochet Trigger), Shockwaves and all other Abilities, which force an enemy into a simple duel, blocking charge lanes with Severe/Blocking Markers etc...

Because Focus not ending at the end of the turn, all :-flipon Duels are not that difficult to turn into a straight than it was in M2E (yes, I am looking at you Midnight Stalker).

I would not change Agent 46 / the ability in General.

 

Have you tried him with LLC and Lawyer giving him shielded? This guy murdered most of my enemies raspy list while getting 3 or 4 Wds because he hits so many moderates it isn't even funny 😜

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1 hour ago, Tors said:

LLC & Shielded makes anyone pretty hard to take out

Yes. But if you can't cheat too and its hard to ping him down it becomes super hard to deal with.

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Focused attacks with some form of reduction/amor ignore, or conditions. There are ways.

Lawyers, LLC and 47 are a 18ss Investment, this shouldn't be killed by any random beater activation without much tought.

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SS cost argument is not sufficient. That was the same argument for the 1e filth list. That was the same argument for the 1e twins. That was the same argument for 2e ashes and dust. Just because something is expensive does not justify excessive rules bending.

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25 minutes ago, Tors said:

Focused attacks with some form of reduction/amor ignore, or conditions. There are ways.

Lawyers, LLC and 47 are a 18ss Investment, this shouldn't be killed by any random beater activation without much tought.

He can pretty easily do 7 actions a turn with Obey, Changeling and Lucius.

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55 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

SS cost argument is not sufficient. That was the same argument for the 1e filth list. That was the same argument for the 1e twins. That was the same argument for 2e ashes and dust. Just because something is expensive does not justify excessive rules bending.

Yes, decisions should be based on more, but that is also part of the equation. It doesn't need to be oppressive, but if you spend 18ss to "soup up" one model it should do something. I don't think we can dismiss the entire argument because there were some design flaws in previous editions. I mean, you should at least get close to the value of another master for that price, right?

42 minutes ago, trikk said:

He can pretty easily do 7 actions a turn with Obey, Changeling and Lucius.

This is something to account for I suppose, but this is also just the theme of the Elite crew. Yes, obeys allow certain models to take more actions. I feel like this was said for shock value, but it's not like Agent 46 is doing 7 actions on his own. 

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31 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Why does mimic let you target yourself? :(

So that, as a tactical action, it can be written to not require a resist flip either... *sigh* (yes, doppelgänger and your damaging trigger on mimic, I am looking at you...)

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On 2/9/2019 at 3:50 PM, trikk said:

He can pretty easily do 7 actions a turn with Obey, Changeling and Lucius.

 

You can make every minion do 7 Actions with Lucius and that crew.

But you will need 6 Models and 6 Activations for this Set up with a total cost of 29 SS.

And you need a 5, three 7 and one 9:maskto successfully do that.

If you hire an Executioner, he can even do 8 Actions a turn (Because of Trail of Gore), and if the Scribe is nearby, the enemy can also only cheat 3 Times, so the Executioner does 5 Actions, where the enemy can't cheat either. And his attacks hits harder because of min Dmg 3.

 

I think this is very theoretical, you will find everywhere combinations, which at the first glance seem overpowered, but in Reality, these situation occur only once in a lifetime, because other things happen you have to react to. Because during these 6 Activations mentioned you need for this set up, the enemy will do 6 Activations by himself and will do nasty things too.

And you will have to react to that...

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8 minutes ago, Qracy said:

 

You can make every minion do 7 Actions with Lucius and that crew.

But you will need 6 Models and 6 Activations for this Set up with a total cost of 29 SS.

And you need a 5, three 7 and one 9:maskto successfully do that.

If you hire an Executioner, he can even do 8 Actions a turn (Because of Trail of Gore), and if the Scribe is nearby, the enemy can also only cheat 3 Times, so the Executioner does 5 Actions, where the enemy can't cheat either. And his attacks hits harder because of min Dmg 3.

 

I think this is very theoretical, you will find everywhere combinations, which at the first glance seem overpowered, but in Reality, these situation occur only once in a lifetime, because other things happen you have to react to. Because during these 6 Activations mentioned you need for this set up, the enemy will do 6 Activations by himself and will do nasty things too.

And you will have to react to that...

Umm, you need 19SS and the Agent is 9SS out of it.

  • His 2 basic actions.
  • Issue Command from Changeling (7, draw a card)
  • Obey (9:mask or 9 with Tools for the Job, draw a card)
  • Issue Command to Changeling to Issue Command Agent (5 and 7, draw two cards)
  • Issue Command to Lawyer to Obey Command Agent. (5 and 9, draw a card)
  • Issue Command on Agent (5, no cards)

 

So for 2x7, 2x9 and 3x5 you get 5 cards. I assume 2x5, 1x7 and 1x9 are topdecked. So you need a 9.,7.5 and you draw 5 cards.

 

You get 7 actions of a 9SS model that hits very hard and is super hard to kill.

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1 minute ago, trikk said:

Umm, you need 19SS and the Agent is 9SS out of it.

  • His 2 basic actions.
  • Issue Command from Changeling (7, draw a card)
  • Obey (9:mask or 9 with Tools for the Job, draw a card)
  • Issue Command to Changeling to Issue Command Agent (5 and 7, draw two cards)
  • Issue Command to Lawyer to Obey Command Agent. (5 and 9, draw a card)
  • Issue Command on Agent (5, no cards)

 

So for 2x7, 2x9 and 3x5 you get 5 cards. I assume 2x5, 1x7 and 1x9 are topdecked. So you need a 9.,7.5 and you draw 5 cards.

Yes, that's another option. You are right.

But that is what Lucius Crew is all about.

And as I have written in my last post, you can do nasty combinations also on other models (like the executioner).

As long as Lucius and his crew is not winning too many games in the overall statistics, I don't see the need for a change.

And you used all of your master activations for that set up...

Look at, what other masters do during their activations. Just played agaist the Vics. Yes you may cheat vs. the Viks, but with a Stat of 7 and an average Df with 4-5 in most crews....

 

Until now, I have not read an argument, why the Agent 46 or the Inhuman Physiology ability in general should be changed, that convinced me.

 

 

 

 

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57 minutes ago, Qracy said:

Yes, that's another option. You are right.

But that is what Lucius Crew is all about.

And as I have written in my last post, you can do nasty combinations also on other models (like the executioner).

As long as Lucius and his crew is not winning too many games in the overall statistics, I don't see the need for a change.

And you used all of your master activations for that set up...

Look at, what other masters do during their activations. Just played agaist the Vics. Yes you may cheat vs. the Viks, but with a Stat of 7 and an average Df with 4-5 in most crews....

 

Until now, I have not read an argument, why the Agent 46 or the Inhuman Physiology ability in general should be changed, that convinced me.You c

Yes, you can do it with an Executionier, but IMHO Agent hits harder (its VERY easy to get the moderate 4), more reliably (opponent can't cheat so they are very likely to lose vs him and gives you a ton of cards in the meantime. He is also 1SS cheaper.

 

Reason for Agent 46 Inhuman Physiology is the same as why Colette had to be changed. Some crews have no answer to him, He jumps between models, deals damage, is super hard to deal with.

If he stays as is, he should at least go to 10SS

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35 minutes ago, trikk said:

 Some crews have no answer to him

Example?

Every Faction has models with :blastAttacks. If the Enemy declares Lucius as the Leader or you fear in general, that he might pick the Agent 46, take a model that deals :blast. That is the answer every faction has to Inhuman Physiology.

And if you want to be sure, pick some cheap models, stand next to the agent, concentrate and Attack your own, cheap model.

 

And in general, that's Malifaux. You always have bad matchups and crews, which can't handle another enemy crew....

35 minutes ago, trikk said:

If he stays as is, he should at least go to 10SS

Why? What is the argument for that? Why not 11SS? Or 12SS? Or 8SS?

I think if you look at the most Henchmen, they are in the middle about 9SS and that's fine.

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9 minutes ago, Qracy said:

Example?

Every Faction has models with :blastAttacks. If the Enemy declares Lucius as the Leader or you fear in general, that he might pick the Agent 46, take a model that deals :blast. That is the answer every faction has to Inhuman Physiology.

And if you want to be sure, pick some cheap models, stand next to the agent, concentrate and Attack your own, cheap model.

I don't know if you know, but Blasts don't work from friendly models. 

He usually has Shielded 2 and I would definitely give him LLC and he's a henchman so pinging him down is also an issue. 

And I assume my opponent is not dumb enough to stand his almost-unhittable model next to the Df3 dude that you can blast from ;)

 

9 minutes ago, Qracy said:

And in general, that's Malifaux. You always have bad matchups and crews, which can't handle another enemy crew....

If you basically can't handle the enemy crew, why bother playing? He should have a downside or exploitable weakness, as all models.

 

10 minutes ago, Qracy said:

Why? What is the argument for that? Why not 11SS? Or 12SS? Or 8SS?

I think if you look at the most Henchmen, they are in the middle about 9SS and that's fine.

Because he is more survivable than most henchmen, can make more actions that most henchmen and hits more reliably than most henchmen. 

I played a game vs Rasputina, where he killed: Acolyte, Snowstorm, 8Wds on Rasputina, Wendigo. All while Juggling between enemies with the :masktrigger.

 

The cost of models is determined by: how much are you willing to pay for it? Would I pay 10SS for him? Always. Would I pay 9SS for Reid? Don't think so and definitely not always.

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Um, explain to me how blast attacks are a solution to him now that you can’t blast off your own miniatures? Agent 46 is going to reliably, regularly, and oh so helpfully stand right next to his other models so an opponent’s models with blasts can dmg him?

You mean his player isn’t going to use him rationally and go, “You know, one of the only weaknesses my model has is blasts. Maybe I should keep my model out of close proximity to my other models and just kill anything with blasts the other crew has first.”

A flat no cheating ability is too strong and just like Colette and Bete too counter to the interactive nature of Malifaux. Make it a no cheating aura. Make it no cheating against melee attacks, or shooting attacks, make it require a cost to cheat. Buff his stats so he has the edge in every duel but prevent both players from cheating.

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