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The iconic Howard Langston

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I’d like to express my feelings about the beloved Howard. 

I feel like he isn’t really worth taking in most of the lists and doesn’t bring anything unique other beaters don’t already have to offer. 

Ignoring def triggers is a super rare occasion and otherwise the model is really lackluster. 

Even in his niche dream scenario, a mnsu augmented crew, he gets outclassed by other models like the peacekeeper, joss and the emissary. 

I’d say it would be a nice thing to make him unique again and give him something that makes him a dedicated pick for a situation that is more common than ignoring def triggers once every 10 games. 

Maybe some unique triggers or a mechanic thank makes him more scary towards elite models.

He one of the most iconic arcanists models and i just cannot find reasons to bring him in my lists, compared to other options of similar cost. 

I think he should either be more optimized towards a specific strength, like being a very mobile beater like he was in m2e or take a step towards a new niche via being better at something specific to make him worth hiring if that specific thing is needed. Resistance triggers tho, are so rare, he almost never gets to actually see the table for strategic reasons. With the new hiring, Colette, zipp and ironsides on the other side of the table are the major things that would scream Howard. But that’s just a bit to rare I think. 

 

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Have you tried him in M&SU? He feels better there than Augmented IMO since Ironsides and Amina give him his Grit all the time and it's easier to have Unionized always on too. 3 attacks at min 3, spending any power tokens he gets from scrap on the way (Steamfitter) for Execute makes him a pain for the enemy to deal with, along with the all-important rg 2 on his attacks. He's not a tank, but if he wants something dead he's good at making it happen.

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I sort of agree that he's rather bland and lost a lot of his identity. That's not to say that I think he's bad but he's just kind of meh IMO. The obvious comparison is the guild executioner who I feel is a better bargain since it's a minion (benefits more from upgrades) and basically as comparable. Defense wise your looking at armor +1 and an extra wound versus H2K and a heal. Offense they're nearly identical, except the executioner has crit strike versus eventual grit on Langston.

To me he's alright but lacks the presence and theme of other 10ss models who also hit just as hard but feel a little more special. For me, the Captain offers much more utility with the same damage output and is overall a much more interesting model for the same cost. The issue is that I don't feel like Howards card represents his look. He's half mechanical spider and nothing on his card equates to it. Unimpedid, nimble or added speed could all be used but if you didn't know the model, you'd have no idea he's half spider.

 

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I can't agree more. I don't see any reason to hire Howard in any arcanist crew. His survivability is mediocre (def4, wp 5, armor 1? The most top tier beaters will kill him within 1 activation, if you don't buy the soulstone upgrade for him. But why would you ever do that? For 13 points, including the tax, you could hire the Duett. Take the comparison. Survivability, movement, dmg output. Why ever hire Howard? Even with Hoffman with his power tokens, the peacekeeper is the better model.As of today, I don't see any reason to hire him. Ever.  And that makes me sad, because he's the most iconic arcanist construct for ages

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I sort of feel like the reason I'd currently want to take Langston, I'd probably be better off with the emissary who performs a similar role but with more utility. Especially now since it's got the 2" :meleeagain. Even when factoring in Grit, the emissary is only 1" slower than Howard AND can still generate an additional attack whereas Howard has to choose movement or attacking. Also the emissary is more survivable

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He is now more a glass cannon, but a very effective one:

With Hoffman and the other Augmented models, the Power Token enables him to add a :crowto all of his Stat 6 Attacks or alternativly hit with :+flipon his Claws.

Combined with the Executioner Claws, that is really deadly. You have to protect him, but Steam Cloud is also very nice.

If you compare him to the emissary, that one would be the better pick if you just look at the model. But when you look at the synergy with Hoffman and the other constructs, his offense is really, really good:

Because you can collect Power Tokens on him, on the first round, maybe 3 or 4, then he has :+flip or :crowon his attacks and can still use power tokens for his defence, when the enemy's answer is coming in.

So I would pick him in some Matchups: Card Hungry Crews or Crews/Master with good Resistance-Trigger. If you are facing Pandora e.g., I would always prefer Howard and would never take the Emissary. But of course, it is situational.

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I guess my concerns come from a M&SU build where power tokens don't play much of a role. I'm not super familiar with Hoff but doesn't his support do a similar thing for all his robots? I would imagine a peacekeeper being equally as effective with those buffs as well.

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I think he needs Crit Strike on his claws, not in-built but just as an option. He is the only model with Executioner Claws without Crit Strike I believe.

Crazy suggestion: maybe he should have Pounce. It would make his :ram trigger much better and make him relatively unique amongst big beaters afaik. Trail of Gore might have to go though...

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Speaking strictly to theme here. I sort of feel like Terrifying should definitely make a comeback seeing how he really is one of the scariest models in our faction. From there, having say Trample, Unimpedid, and/or +1Mv would help push him in a bit of a different direction as more of a mobile assassin instead of the strait forward beater he is now. To me, this would be a good way of incorporating his whole mechanical spider theme into his play style.

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On 2/8/2019 at 3:46 PM, I'm a Teapot! said:

I’d like to express my feelings about the beloved Howard. 

I feel like he isn’t really worth taking in most of the lists and doesn’t bring anything unique other beaters don’t already have to offer. 

This is good! He was in too many crews in m2e. He's a glass cannon and good at what he does. A great option when your opponent declares a master with a resistance trigger but definitely should not be in a place where he is used with any master again. He's actually pretty balanced and in a good place. 

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3 hours ago, Flippin' Wyrd Jamie said:

This is good! He was in too many crews in m2e. He's a glass cannon and good at what he does. A great option when your opponent declares a master with a resistance trigger but definitely should not be in a place where he is used with any master again. He's actually pretty balanced and in a good place. 

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that they want him to be super viable out of his subfactions, just that he should be useful within them, preferably in situations other than when your opponent brought Colette. This thread is claiming that he isn't balanced or in a good place within his keywords, not claiming that he should be takeable with every master again. It doesn't mean its true obviously, but some people are dissatisfied with him and want him changed.

To me he looks significantly worse than the Peacekeeper. He does less damage and is less tanky. If he is being significantly outcompeted by another beater in his keyword, which is also Versatile for what it's worth, I think that would be a problem.

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On 2/10/2019 at 1:15 AM, Jinn said:

 

To me he looks significantly worse than the Peacekeeper. He does less damage and is less tanky. If he is being significantly outcompeted by another beater in his keyword, which is also Versatile for what it's worth, I think that would be a problem.

The Peacekeeper is clearly the better choice with Hoffman. And also the emisarry, which is way faster, got the better trigger, not to mention the outstanding aura.  I don't see any reason to ever pick Howard at the moment. If he at least has high wp, that would make him an option to pressure control masters with Def trigger. 

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3 minutes ago, Winterfeld said:

The Peacekeeper is clearly the better choice with Hoffman. And also the emisarry, which is way faster, got the better trigger, not to mention the outstanding aura.  I don't see any reason to ever pick Howard at the moment. If he at least has high wp, that would make him an option to pressure control masters with Def trigger. 

Howard has Vent Steam which is pretty nice against ranged crews and Mv 5 compared to Mv4 on Peacekeeper, but I think Vent Steam is his only selling point.

I think the Peacekeeper is probably worse than the Emissary (Brutal, don't know about Arcane) and Joss anyways for Hoffman

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2 hours ago, trikk said:

Howard has Vent Steam which is pretty nice against ranged crews and Mv 5 compared to Mv4 on Peacekeeper, but I think Vent Steam is his only selling point.

I think the Peacekeeper is probably worse than the Emissary (Brutal, don't know about Arcane) and Joss anyways for Hoffman

Vent steam is nothing u want to bring to an Mnsu crew and Hoffmann its the only real selling point for him in Hoffman, I agree. 

I dont know... he feels so lost at the moment. I mean Jamie is right, he doesnt have to be in his m2e state where he is just the best beater for every crew. 

But thats not the thing I was aiming for. He should be a valid alternative for specific scenarios besides anti def trigger situations. 

And I think he should be SCARY in that specific situation. I mean... he is Howard Langston, the steamborg executioner... and at the moment there are like  50 models in this game that scare me way more in their prefered situations. Not talking about non optimum Situations. 
I mean if i'm playing a def trigger master like Zipp. I pay attention if the enemy brings an executioner or Howard. But does it scare me? Not really.. at least not as much as a 2ss Upgrade from Ten Thunders does, which accumulates its effect with every modell attacking zipp while he is in that aura. 
 

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I really loved Howard in m2e.  Without daubt he was a very strong beater, but quite expensive and some kind of one trick pony, but your opponent had to invest quite a bunch of resources to deal with him. 

The m3e version is only a shadow of his former glory.  Today, you don't have to invest much to remove him. Def 4, armor 1 is not very impressive. I know, I've talked a lot about the (arcane) emissary in comparison. 

I know, Hoffmans power token did nothing for it, but keep in mind, he can make it fast. 3 charges, 2" melee range, that's an incredible thread range of 23". Combined with the aura and a possible shove aside trigger. If you combine the emissary with the soulstone cache, your opponent has to invest many ap/resources to deal with that thread.  Why should I ever pick Howard instead? 

In m&su there are no power token synergies either. I don't know. Maybe I just don't understand the design concept... :(

 

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well you can dual master ironsides and hoffman to make use of both keywords (and the steamfitter I guess)

however still realy realy miffed that joss is not MSU

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Sure, that's possible. But except for Howard and maybe the steamfitters, they share no synergies at all. I tried both. Hoffman ist a great, straight forward master, who need constructs around him, to use full potential. And Tony....... Is in my opinion the worst master in Faction.   

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1 minute ago, WildRose94 said:

Worse than Kaeris?!

Ironsides and Kaeris being top contenters for worst-in-faction award.

 

Is this a M2E topic pre-Ripples of Fate that I wondered into :D ? 

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1 hour ago, Winterfeld said:

Kaeris works well with Sandeep, Kandara and banasuva in some schemes.  Don't underestimate the pyre markers. 

are you not just better just running sandeep though?

 

does kaeris bring something to the table that a fire golem and fire gamin don't bring?

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12 minutes ago, dannydb said:

are you not just better just running sandeep though?

 

does kaeris bring something to the table that a fire golem and fire gamin don't bring?

 Yes. Try it. 

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Yes, the pyre marker, if she's the leader. Sure, you have to pay a the tax, indeed. But in the reward is very interesting. With banasuvsas concentrate aura and the potential fire gamin summons, you optain so much passiv board control. Don't forget, all that marker remain on the table, while your opponent has to deal with the injured condition. 

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