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Ferdat

Asylum we're do they fit?

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So having been trying to look at models that don't seem to have changed much since the start of the whole beta, and asylum models seem to be the same for the most part. Is this because they are good or that they just have not seen play? 

I will be trying them out in a few crews his week but at first glance I'm not sure when you would take these models out of keyword. I mean Grimwell seems to be the same as he has ever been and the call for orderly to be scheme runners is there but they played these roles in second edition and I did not really see them ever. 

And Heartsbane needs a heavy asylum investment from what I can tell. 

I think we a opertunity to maybe give these models a new lease of life and maybe make them a solid pick for a style of play or a good choice for a strat and scheme pool. 

How have people found them or are we just over looking them to test other stuff? 

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I do like Grimwell and brought him into a Nellie crew (imo they really need some muscle), but I agree the subfaction seems kind of meh. Their synergy is very tight and doesn't seem to fit into any other Guild theme and to hire them all costs 

Grimwell: 9

Heartsbane: 7

Orderlies: 10

That is more than half your crew and for what? Restratints doesn't seem that great an ability espically for the cost of setting it up. Orderlies at 5SS seem too expensive with a weak :ToS-Melee: attack, not even built in staggered which is what the subcrew is designed around and a short range heal with takes an action

 

heartsbane seems better, but again not worth 7SS. Her attack again doesn't guarantee what you're trying to setup. STraight jacket is nice but you either need orderlies or Grimwell or herself being attacked to use it. If orderlies they are probably dead already and Grimwell doesn't need the assistance so much applying Injured +2 for attacking. 

 

Grimwell I do like as a mobile beater who just ruins your opponents day. Prepare for Surgery is thematic, but I don't think ever going to work. Assuming you do take all 4 asylum models for half your points, to use this all the models must be within 6" of the target and all that setup is just for 4 damage. Unless you have more than 2 models and are within 7-8" ofthe enemy I feel you're better off just charging and attacking 99% of the time than using this action.

 

Compare Asylum to the other 2 player sets and I feel asylum went down the wrong path. Most other sets were turned to join a theme and worked to fit that theme or are versatile models that are just decent picks in any theme (looking at you half bloods).

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5 minutes ago, KnightA4 said:

Orderlies at 5SS seem too expensive with a weak :ToS-Melee: attack, not even built in staggered which is what the subcrew is designed around and a short range heal with takes an action

Orderlies have Mv6 and a super easy heal and a Stat 5 attack which means they can actually kill a few scheme runners.

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Just now, trikk said:

Orderlies have Mv6 and a super easy heal and a Stat 5 attack which means they can actually kill a few scheme runners.

The super easy heal though it takes an action and only 2" range and other living model only. So they can effectively heal anything within 8" of them. For 1SS more just hire the steward that can move twice and heal 6" away. While the steward can't do damage I don't think a Stat 5 1/3/4 damage track will threaten many scheme runners (most that I'm seeing either have ways to easily disengage and cover distance or will survive long enough against a 1/3/4 damage track to get help). If they orderly is harassing scheme runners it probably isn't going be able to do much itself. 

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I used the full package once and thought they did alright, interesting toolbox.  But I have had more success using them individuallly, particularly heartsbane and grimwell.  Heartsbane makes a nice scheme running piece, and serene countenance is a great tool when you are running against someone that doesn't have easy plus flip access, and grimwell is a pretty good mobile beater.

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11 minutes ago, KnightA4 said:

The super easy heal though it takes an action and only 2" range and other living model only. So they can effectively heal anything within 8" of them. For 1SS more just hire the steward that can move twice and heal 6" away. While the steward can't do damage I don't think a Stat 5 1/3/4 damage track will threaten many scheme runners (most that I'm seeing either have ways to easily disengage and cover distance or will survive long enough against a 1/3/4 damage track to get help). If they orderly is harassing scheme runners it probably isn't going be able to do much itself. 

In a faction with no Leaps and 1 flying significant model, you can't overlook Mv6 models. I plan on playing 1 with Judge in almost any crew. You can take 3-4 cards T1 pretty easily. Then he can either set up for T2 healing or go scheme depending on the outcome of Risk of Reason.

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9 minutes ago, trikk said:

In a faction with no Leaps and 1 flying significant model, you can't overlook Mv6 models. I plan on playing 1 with Judge in almost any crew. You can take 3-4 cards T1 pretty easily. Then he can either set up for T2 healing or go scheme depending on the outcome of Risk of Reason.

That's 16pts for that combo outside of Marshal's. Not really convinced that is worth the points, but only played Journalists in Guild and they scheme pretty easily. 

 

I don't feel Guild has good dedicated Scheme runners, as much as each theme has it's own way trying to scheme. Just quick skin through the rest of Guild

Witchhunters: probably want a sanctioned spell caster and a henchman to babysit them so they are always fast and the henchman keeps them safe.

Augmented: Hoffman makes constructs fast and a fast watcher can get where you need it

Elite: Out of activation schemeing

Family: Not sure

Marshal: Make things undead for fast?

Guard: Not sure

Fronttier: Not sure

 

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9 minutes ago, KnightA4 said:

That's 16pts for that combo outside of Marshal's. Not really convinced that is worth the points, but only played Journalists in Guild and they scheme pretty easily. 

 

I don't feel Guild has good dedicated Scheme runners, as much as each theme has it's own way trying to scheme. Just quick skin through the rest of Guild

Witchhunters: probably want a sanctioned spell caster and a henchman to babysit them so they are always fast and the henchman keeps them safe.

Augmented: Hoffman makes constructs fast and a fast watcher can get where you need it

Elite: Out of activation schemeing

Family: Not sure

Marshal: Make things undead for fast?

Guard: Not sure

Fronttier: Not sure

Thats a 16 SS combo that has a HtK, HtW Hench with min 3 Stat 6 attack, and a pretty sweet Stat 6 12" Staggered with no projectile. And can scheme. Oh, and you can get 3 cards a turn ;)

 

I don't know if its broken or OP but it kind of feels very good in most crews.

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Dunno if it'd fly, but I was talking with a friend about it, and he brought up the idea of something like, if you take Grimwell as the Leader, he gained the Half-Blood Keyword (he's bringing his inmates with him).

A full crew (assuming you don't switch anything out) would be 43SS, 9 models (free Effigy), and would allow someone with the starter to field a full crew. And while they're not, there are some synergies there. Angel and Maurice provide some ranged support, Orderlies can top up Bloodwretches, etc.

He also thought it'd be fair to have AngelEyes do that too as Leader, but I'm not sure you could justify that as easily with fluff.

Not sure it's workable, but it's an idea.

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2 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Dunno if it'd fly, but I was talking with a friend about it, and he brought up the idea of something like, if you take Grimwell as the Leader, he gained the Half-Blood Keyword (he's bringing his inmates with him).

A full crew (assuming you don't switch anything out) would be 43SS, 9 models (free Effigy), and would allow someone with the starter to field a full crew. And while they're not, there are some synergies there. Angel and Maurice provide some ranged support, Orderlies can top up Bloodwretches, etc.

He also thought it'd be fair to have AngelEyes do that too as Leader, but I'm not sure you could justify that as easily with fluff.

Not sure it's workable, but it's an idea.

The only problems I can see is the effigy doesn't come in the starter box (though that is an issue for the starter box now either way).  Isn't Tuco a halfblood too?

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So what do we think would make the most sense to make them more viable as takes because I don't want another edition to go by with these guys sat at the bottom of my case.

I have been wracking my brain and I don't know what it is about them but they don't fit for me. Shame they did not get filtered into another key word like some of the other story box's. 

They used to be witch hunters what happened there? I am not saying I want them in Sonnias crew but I think they would see more play if they was part of a key word. Had a strong mechanic. But they do feel like a heavy investment for a meh mechanic 

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55 minutes ago, Ferdat said:

So what do we think would make the most sense to make them more viable as takes because I don't want another edition to go by with these guys sat at the bottom of my case.

 I have been wracking my brain and I don't know what it is about them but they don't fit for me. Shame they did not get filtered into another key word like some of the other story box's. 

 They used to be witch hunters what happened there? I am not saying I want them in Sonnias crew but I think they would see more play if they was part of a key word. Had a strong mechanic. But they do feel like a heavy investment for a meh mechanic 

They very well might not fit your playstyle.  If you are who I think you are you are a much more accomplished player than me, but I used to mess with Nurse HB and/or Grimwell in Sonnia lists, especially post wave 5. 

I wouldn't mind them doing a little more damage than they currently do, but that is about it that I can think of.  I don't really like straitjacket in this edition enough to expect it to be used.

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1 hour ago, Ferdat said:

So what do we think would make the most sense to make them more viable as takes because I don't want another edition to go by with these guys sat at the bottom of my case.

imo they need 2 things

1) To be effective in other themes and not so strongly tied to just themselves

2) probably not to cost more than 50% of your crew

 

To address point 1

Restraints: Enemy models with any conditions that are engaged by this model are ignored by their controller for the purposes of Strategies and Schemes.

making them not so staggered dependent would help open them up

Maybe add something like

hypocritical oath: When damaging an opponent without any conditions target model gains 1 of either, poison +1, burning +1, distracted +1, injured +1, or staggered

would help them out in any crew and not just play amongst themselves

 

for point 2 I would:

Dr Grimwell

- Lower cost by 1SS

- nerf Prepare for Surgery to Stat 6

-remove Doctor's Orders (he already has the same weapon as McMourning, does he also need the same bonus action?) 

-add :ToS-Fast: "Clean" Bill of Health Rg: 2"  Stat: 5   Rst: WP

Change 1 condition to any other condition. If the condition has a value the new condition has 1 less value to a min of 1.

:ToS-Ram:That's a smile you can trust: Target gains stunned 

 

Nurse Heartsbane

-lower the cost of Nurse Heartsbane by 1(she kind of seems overpriced at 7SS)

-Change straight jacket to end of models next activation. Stat 5. Add triggers

:ToS-Ram:And you will pay for it: Target model may choose to discard a card or let this model draw a card

:tome HOW?: Target gains stunned

-remove :maskStagger and give Electroshock Machine built in :crow

 

Orderlies

-add Bedside Manner: After resolving an Action in which another friendly model within :aura3 suffered damage, this model may discard a card to place the damaged model into base contact with this model

-To Necrotic Injection add

:tome Burning Up: Models damage by this action gain Burning +1

:ToS-Ram: Well I at least feel better: This model Heals 1

-and give them a bonus action 

:ToS-Fast:I'm Helping: Rg: 10"   Stat 5    Rst: MV

Target model with less than health health. Push this model it's MV towards target model.

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Would there be any value to adding Nurses to the keyword?

Perhaps that wouldn't have much of a mechanical impact (easier heals, so Orderlies can scheme-run/hunt freely) but it woul be thematic.

Checked before posting - they already are, but they seem far less support-y that I remember last time I saw them.

 

Orderlies:

Tool for the Job, or;

Surgical Tools: Discard a card (any suit) to add a Mask to all further actions taken this turn.

Lets you get teh Staggered off for a small cost.

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I think the issue is that they don't need more models in the key word but they either need to be solid stand alone models, cheaper to take as a contingent in a crew or filtered into a keyword in the faction.. 

i do like some of the suggested changes above thought it may make them tempting to take but that they do has to be worth you stepping away from faction keyword abilities and synergy of crews. so that would involve them being a worth while investment as a unit almost. 

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15 minutes ago, Ferdat said:

I think the issue is that they don't need more models in the key word but they either need to be solid stand alone models, cheaper to take as a contingent in a crew or filtered into a keyword in the faction.. 

i do like some of the suggested changes above thought it may make them tempting to take but that they do has to be worth you stepping away from faction keyword abilities and synergy of crews. so that would involve them being a worth while investment as a unit almost. 

I think they pretty much have to make the contingent as a whole a little underpowered, because they aren't going to be a synergy take so if they are taken all together they would have to be an auto-take.

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I haven't gotten a battle report in with them yet but I'm planning to take them either in a Lucius led crew or a Reid led crew so I can garrote for days. That said, they do seem a bit underwhelming, but I won't know for sure without a test. 

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I ran the Asylum models in a Lucius crew back during the closed beta and overall they performed well, although it was my opponents first game with Euripides and he wasn't playing his crew to its fullest advantage. The Orderlies definitely had the weakest performance and not just because they were the cheapest models in the crew. They worked well as scheme runners but that was it. I wouldn't be against them getting some kind of buff for combat, maybe not the mask on their melee, but something like Tools for the Job so they can potentially get the mask, crow, or just provide better cards for the rest of the crew.

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Similar to KingJocko, I ran the Asylum team with a Lucius crew. Orderlies & Grimwell performed well (lots of movement from Orderlies & Injured from Grimwell). What I struggled with was getting value from Nurse Heartsbane. The requirement for an Asylum model near the target on Straightjacket had me near hogtied in my attempts to use it.

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So having just looked at the cards again to see if I can shake lose some ideas. 

I would say we are right about them being to expensive as a set there restrain ability is basically unusable on most of them except grimwell because of there short melee distance.

Nurse heartsbane is by far the worst.

Straight jacket seems good but because it has to be used so within 2 inch of a asylum model to get any real effect and most of the asylum models have no engagement range to speak of they can't really take advantage of the trigger to attack. On the masks

I would say hey electroshock machine needs to be ML range 1 and proberly either hand out staggered on the attack or have a built in mask. 

Orderlys need a different attack all together I would say the range is to small the damage is wonky for a ML attack unless u are a dog? Infect has no place on the card the asylum models don't use it guild really don't use it and as a condition unless you can stack it, it has very little impact I find. Also out of all the models surely orderlys should have a ability to move models around and nurse heartsbane should do the healing. Would give the orderlys some worth as a movement peice as well. They could bring the Doctors Patients (Victims) to him.

I would say grimwell is the only peice yet again that may see play if you want a versatile beater but most key words except Nellie have that but even he as are new resident doctor dose not really fill that role. If he is are new killer doctor can we not make him that as his role big scary doctor the reason no one wants to go the asylum?

I would say he could be the punch in the asylum and let the others be the tech. That would be a fun team then. Triggers like "the doctor will see you now" and "Take 2 Twice a day"

After all it is a starter set as well and currently any guild player that starts with these models will struggle to use them in a game let alone have fun with them I believe.

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14 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

I suspect the designers don't realize how big a deal a 0" range is.    I suspect 90% of models with a 0" ml attack that aren't snipers will be rare takes.

 

I'm sure 0" engagement has it's place in the game, just not on these models.

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Try to remember this. This will be Book 1 of a third edition. There needs to be room to grow and make new models.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if in a future book there are new masters for the subsets. Asylum, Half-blood, etc.

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