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Shadowdragon

Cost of masters

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So, it looks like the costs of some masters are being increased. I guess this means any thought of leader master+totem combos being balanced have been totally thrown out the window. Pretty soon we'll have master + totem combos of 10SS total along comobs of 30ss total. I mean, since they both end up costing 0, I guess models worth 10ss are equal to models worth 30ss, right? I can't believe how much of a mess this whole master + totem cost thing is becoming, and it amazes me how few people actually understand how this is a problem.

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I think you're forgetting that the costing os being balanced to help pad out having multiple masters in a crew. The models are being costed appropriately, they just might have more or less firepower outside of their thematic crew. It really isn't a big deal and frankly would be unbalanced in the long run if they weren't balancing without trying to constrain the models to a number.

Designing a whole cars to a SS price is a lot less sustainable than the other way around :)

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But cost is also a measure of a model's power, otherwise cost would be meaningless. A 16ss master is more powerful than a 12ss one, whether it's being used as a second master or the crews leader. What if there ends up being a master that costs 40ss, but you get it for free because it's a leader. You'd be ok playing against it with your 15ss master? In 2e there were other mechanics in place to help balance masters and totems (namely the cache and having to buy the totem). Now, Masters and totems = 0ss, with no other balancing factors, so every master should be exactly equal in power (or near enough) and every totem should be exactly equal in power (or near enough). But, since the costs of masters and totems are all over the place, they obviously aren't equal.

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5 minutes ago, Shadowdragon said:

A 16ss master is more powerful than a 12ss one, whether it's being used as a second master or the crews leader.

Many masters have some abilities blocked or toned down when they are not leaders. Price in ss describes only value as a second master, not leader.
 

5 minutes ago, Shadowdragon said:

Now, Masters and totems = 0ss, with no other balancing factors, so every master should be exactly equal in power (or near enough) and every totem should be exactly equal in power (or near enough).

I don't agree. Steam Trunk doesn't have to be "exactly equal in power" to Lord Chompy bits. Master + totem pair should be somehow equal in power, or even Master + totem + keyword crew.

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I think you're looking at it wrong. In 3E the cost is a balancing effort for the crew. Cost just reflects how much they can outshine the leader of a crew. Wyrd is able to balance the actual crew to be more or less powerful, and a lot of the more costly masters are near about useless as leaders without their crew to help pull off their strategy. So yeah, I'd be ok taking a 15ss master against a hypothetical 40ss one (although a 40ss master isn't a good faith argument) because then I'm going to be outactivating my enemy. They're going to have maybe 5 models, possibly 6 at most, maybe even just 3. It doesn't matter how good those models are, you build your scheme pool and crew around it. If I know it's a much unkillable master I choose to outactivate with tiny scheme runners. Yes, it sucks to have a big threat unremovable, but that's how it goes sometimes. And as its own master that master probably needs a lot more support from its crew. I think you're misunderstanding and misequating power level to cost, when there are a lot of other ways to balance for "more powerful" masters.

Again though, that's really a bad faith argument and like. Idk dude. I don't really have any skin in this game because it's going to be how it is and it's good design principal whether you get why or not, but I know how upset I've been with several things this edition despite then being good design choices so I wanted to reach out and make sure you knew that but like. I also don't want to start a whole ordeal of it so I'll just say this and move on unless you want to talk in good faith about why that kind of balancing works.

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3 minutes ago, Shadowdragon said:

But cost is also a measure of a model's power, otherwise cost would be meaningless. A 16ss master is more powerful than a 12ss one, whether it's being used as a second master or the crews leader.

A Master that has insane synergy with their crew is going to be less effective without their keyword. A Master that has no synergy with their crew, or one that has a lot of synergy outside of their crew, is going to have a higher cost because they are more effective when hired.

Because Master + Totem costs 0SS when that Master is the leader of the crew their cost is going to be primarily balanced around how effective they are when hired as a second Master. If you look at Marcus he brings almost nothing to the table outside of a beast crew, he should honestly cost a stone or two less than 16SS to hire. Lady Justice on the other hand is always going to get some good work done beating the enemies faces in no matter that she has no support from the Marshal keyword.

Additionally, not all Masters are equally powerful. The Viktorias, Lynch, Dreamer, and probably some I'm forgetting are intentionally weaker than other Masters due to their Totem being more powerful. If you look at Vendetta, if Huggy was costed similarly to other totems regardless of his stat card it would be almost impossible to score this against him. So instead of that, you can choose a 7SS model to take him down making it a lot more fair.

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10 hours ago, Shadowdragon said:

So, it looks like the costs of some masters are being increased. I guess this means any thought of leader master+totem combos being balanced have been totally thrown out the window. Pretty soon we'll have master + totem combos of 10SS total along comobs of 30ss total. I mean, since they both end up costing 0, I guess models worth 10ss are equal to models worth 30ss, right? I can't believe how much of a mess this whole master + totem cost thing is becoming, and it amazes me how few people actually understand how this is a problem.

I Understand what you're saying, I just thing you are wrong. I can give an example that would show how you have missed some of the alternative balancing options there are in the game.

Master A costs 10 ss and has Keyword A. Master B is identical except it costs 16 and has keyword B.

Every model in keyword A is identical to a model in keyword B except it cost 1 ss More.

You Build a crew by hiring 6 models, you will find the crew built by master B is 6 stones better off.

If you were going to Hire one of the masters when you Run master C you would always hire Master A and so be 6 soulstone better off.

So in this very simple example in you have some situations where you are better off using Master A, and  some where you are using Master B.

9 hours ago, Shadowdragon said:

But cost is also a measure of a model's power, otherwise cost would be meaningless. A 16ss master is more powerful than a 12ss one, whether it's being used as a second master or the crews leader.

Hopefully my simple example showed that this isn't as simple as you seem to think. My 16 ss Master is more powerful when used as a crews leader, but the 10 SS master is more powerful when hired despite them having identical rules except for their hiring options.

 

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10 hours ago, Shadowdragon said:

 A 16ss master is more powerful than a 12ss one, whether it's being used as a second master or the crews leader. 

This is just pretty blatantly false.

Also, if you think the cost disparity is such a massive problem, prove it? We're now 4(?) months into closed+open beta and I don't see Dreamer, Lynch, Sandeep or Viks going around completely stomping in all their games because they get a free high cost model.

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7 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

This is just pretty blatantly false.

Also, if you think the cost disparity is such a massive problem, prove it? We're now 4(?) months into closed+open beta and I don't see Dreamer, Lynch, Sandeep or Viks going around completely stomping in all their games because they get a free high cost model.

Nor have we seen the cheaper Masters dominate as hires.

The only Masters that have been even the slightest problem, has been Lady J (fixed a bit), Zoraida (fixed prior) and summoners (fixed in the Closed Beta).

I don't like the idea of hired Masters. I've stated that opinion a few times. But that's always been a gut feel of how I feel the game should work, rather than a concern over balance.

But I read something like 250+ battle reports in the Closed Beta. I think that if there's an issue with Masters as hires, from a balance perspective (other than the summoning issue which was fixed), I didn't see it.

If you think it's wrong, that they're not just a potentially good option, but a broken one, as @santaclaws01 said, prove it. 

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11 minutes ago, Morgan Vening said:

Nor have we seen the cheaper Masters dominate as hires.

The only Masters that have been even the slightest problem, has been Lady J (fixed a bit), Zoraida (fixed prior) and summoners (fixed in the Closed Beta).

I don't like the idea of hired Masters. I've stated that opinion a few times. But that's always been a gut feel of how I feel the game should work, rather than a concern over balance.

But I read something like 250+ battle reports in the Closed Beta. I think that if there's an issue with Masters as hires, from a balance perspective (other than the summoning issue which was fixed), I didn't see it.

If you think it's wrong, that they're not just a potentially good option, but a broken one, as @santaclaws01 said, prove it. 

While what you say might be true, you have to take into account that a meta doesn't exist, the beta has no skill requirements and that I give it like 3 months in the polish community to show you some really nasty shit ;) 

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1 hour ago, trikk said:

While what you say might be true, you have to take into account that a meta doesn't exist, the beta has no skill requirements and that I give it like 3 months in the polish community to show you some really nasty shit ;) 

Is there going to be be scandalous out-of-keyword hiring, too?  :o

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35 minutes ago, solkan said:

Is there going to be be scandalous out-of-keyword hiring, too?  :o

You bet your bum there will! :P

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15 hours ago, trikk said:

While what you say might be true, you have to take into account that a meta doesn't exist, the beta has no skill requirements and that I give it like 3 months in the polish community to show you some really nasty shit ;) 

Isn't this the exact reason we are doing an open beta...

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4 hours ago, Adran said:

Isn't this the exact reason we are doing an open beta...

Well it feels a little like there should be a - Now everything is done beta after this one - where people try to break the power balance. Currently many models and several crews seem off. There seem to be 3 tiers - top tier - middle tier and bottom tier crews and/or models and I for one is not sure which of the tiers we are aiming for atm.

It would be nice if wyrd had a puplic list of crews/models currently considered in the tier we are aiming for...

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

Isn't this the exact reason we are doing an open beta...

Yes it is. And you had an open beta for most (all) M2E books. There's always stuff that gets through.

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Just now, trikk said:

Yes it is. And you had an open beta for most (all) M2E books. There's always stuff that gets through.

I was hoping that you Poles were better at breaking stuff by now. Break things faster!!!

(yes stuff will get through, but things like the rat engine took almost 2 years to start causing a problem. Sandeep (No public beta) took almost 2 days to win a big event. )

 

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