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Razhem

Artillery Team

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OK, so I'm coming strictly from ignorance on this one. Reading it I just don't see the hubub. It's pretty hard to kill for sure due to having more than one model on the fireteam and being able to stack Toughness on top of that. But I find it's offense very underwhelming, one thing I've discovered is that cover is bloody everywhere, so most likely you will be av 1 or 3 if inspired, which is solid enough against titans, not so much against any mid tier squad. Also, can it even fight in melee due to the 6" rule?

Once engaged it also seens to get completely silenced, which I mean it's only a 3 script model, sure, but compared to the other 3 script models it certainly seems like it's a lot less independant

And then if for same chance you manage to get it into glory, the ignoring line if sight action seems very underwhelming as well. First, I believe it doesn't ignore cover, or am I wrong about that? And second, the attack stat is pretty low for what amounts to putting a shaken token and doing 1 damage against a single target. I mean if you get a nice flip that's a good stack of shaken no doubt, though if that's the main selling point, might be very counter productive vs Cult.

So what am I missing and how have others gotten mileafe out if it?.

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5 hours ago, Razhem said:

OK, so I'm coming strictly from ignorance on this one. Reading it I just don't see the hubub. It's pretty hard to kill for sure due to having more than one model on the fireteam and being able to stack Toughness on top of that. But I find it's offense very underwhelming, one thing I've discovered is that cover is bloody everywhere, so most likely you will be av 1 or 3 if inspired, which is solid enough against titans, not so much against any mid tier squad. Also, can it even fight in melee due to the 6" rule?

Once engaged it also seens to get completely silenced, which I mean it's only a 3 script model, sure, but compared to the other 3 script models it certainly seems like it's a lot less independant

And then if for same chance you manage to get it into glory, the ignoring line if sight action seems very underwhelming as well. First, I believe it doesn't ignore cover, or am I wrong about that? And second, the attack stat is pretty low for what amounts to putting a shaken token and doing 1 damage against a single target. I mean if you get a nice flip that's a good stack of shaken no doubt, though if that's the main selling point, might be very counter productive vs Cult.

So what am I missing and how have others gotten mileafe out if it?.

Thabks for starting the thread, wanted to do it myself but haven't gotten the time^^

Imo the artillery team is the worst model in the game atm and it seems the reason could've been fear of ranged attacks in playtest, which is totally understandable.

But we have a str 6 gun (scary value) on an AV3 platform which doesn't ignore cover or LoS (it's an artillery piece....) so as you said it'll shoot at AV 1 or maybe 3 at best.

As to hunting titans - it can't even target them if another unit stands in front of them as it does still require LoS...

 

The heavy shelling seems nice but I don't know why that's locked onto the glory side.

 

I don't know how aby has flare guns and the mortars on the titan asset which both grant a glimpse at what the Artillery could've been - heck, I KE would've to discard a card to let it ignore LoS and/or cover it would be a big price to pay for that faction 

 

You could buy like 2 of them and block lure lanes in a game against the hordes as theartillery itself can't be moved by the enemy company but I dare say that the 6 scrip would be better invested in something else.

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and what about it's use with Edmonton? i understand we cannot use it with stratagems for additional shots (as it is not a squad), but giving it additional shots via Edmonton or Thrace looks solid. Also, edmonton could give it much needed inspired tokens to increase accuracy.

I did not play artillery team yet, but it looks to me like a good drop against abissynia - large number of titan-like units requires strong firepower, and grenadiers are just too little for that.

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48 minutes ago, pawlik said:

and what about it's use with Edmonton? i understand we cannot use it with stratagems for additional shots (as it is not a squad), but giving it additional shots via Edmonton or Thrace looks solid. Also, edmonton could give it much needed inspired tokens to increase accuracy.

I did not play artillery team yet, but it looks to me like a good drop against abissynia - large number of titan-like units requires strong firepower, and grenadiers are just too little for that.

Edmonton and Thrace both only command Squads - which the Artillery isn`t.

 

So, what`s the Artillerey doing against these Titans?

Str 6 looks super solid against them, agreed.

But AV3, not ignoring cover and LoS is super bad.

- you don`t ignore cover so you`re basically always AV1 -> add the single inspired token you can use for each attack and you`re back to 3, wow. Try hitting the models of the faction with vastly superior hand.

- you don`t ignore LoS -> they can hide their Titans behind Infantry Fireteams or terrain.

- and once that Steel Legion Cutter is in your grills, you can`t even shoot at them (maybe without cover for the first time) because you are simply not allowed to shoot under a certain range band.

 

Sure, you get 3 Artillery Teams for the price of one Grenadier Squad with Sharpshooters but if you have the Hand cards to invest even their area damage has a higher chance of wounding a Titan than the Artillery has of actually hitting it.

 

Idk, maybe spamming and hoping for them to fail or make a movement mistake is the way to do it, but I don`t see it, unfortunately.

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Eh, the LoS thing is certainly an issue, but it should be spending every turn Focusing Effort to mitigate the cover it's likely shooting through given it's impressive range.  That puts it on an even flip or maybe up 2 if you can actually get a clean shot.  Getting access to a convenient hill or raised platform of some kind will also help him a lot with the whole LoS problem.

If you need it to actually MOVE somewhere, likely a lot of things have already gone wrong.  He's REALLY slow.

Edited by Clement
hills yo

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1 hour ago, Clement said:

Eh, the LoS thing is certainly an issue, but it should be spending every turn Focusing Effort to mitigate the cover it's likely shooting through given it's impressive range.  That puts it on an even flip or maybe up 2 if you can actually get a clean shot.  Getting access to a convenient hill or raised platform of some kind will also help him a lot with the whole LoS problem.

If you need it to actually MOVE somewhere, likely a lot of things have already gone wrong.  He's REALLY slow.

Focused effort to mitigate cover?

So we're still talking AV 3 overall, which won't hit anything if you're not in possession of a vastly superior hand.

I'm not impressed, and even more underwhelmed if I start comparing it to the other factions 3 scrip options.

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8 minutes ago, Tris said:

Focused effort to mitigate cover?

So we're still talking AV 3 overall, which won't hit anything if you're not in possession of a vastly superior hand.

I'm not impressed, and even more underwhelmed if I start comparing it to the other factions 3 scrip options.

Well, I mean, ignoring the other Alligiences I sort of have a hard time telling myself that something that is strictly for titan hunting is worth it instead of just bringing Thrace or put that script into paying part of some Grenadiers who are better at titan hunting anyway and bring some area to the mix (how the hell can it do bombardment but not do area damage?!).

Don't get me wrong, Str 6 is certainly nice and it opens some pretty impressive fireteam oneshots, but 5 shots at best in the game, likely missing more than half, no table presence, no objective capacity and can be silenced if engaged... Well str 6 is definitely not worth that, av 6 with str 3 is more valuable in my eyes than av 3 with str 6.

Then you look at the other 3 script choices on the other Alligiences and it looks like a joke frankly. 

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10 hours ago, Tris said:

So, what`s the Artillerey doing against these Titans?

Str 6 looks super solid against them, agreed.

But AV3, not ignoring cover and LoS is super bad.

Every one of the main Titans except for Horo is Df 3. Horo is Df 4. AV 3 versus Df 3 is a straight flip/cheat comparison, so that's not all that bad to begin with. Its utility improves dramatically if you get it into Glory.

So it's not super bad in the context of Titan hunting. It's not the AV 5 of the Area grenades of Grenadiers, which happen to be Strength 3. It is the AV 3 of the Strength 5 (Piercing) Grenadier shots, with a 48 inch range. Additionally, if we look at the Armor ratings of different Titans (12 for Horo, KH, and DN, 11 for AC, 6 for Gory) S3 shots only crack Armor 12 on a flip/cheat of 9+ (21/54 base, but cards are already flipped so the probability is different depending on what cards were flipped), while S6 does it on a 6+ (33/54). To do 2 Wounds with a S3 shot, you need the Red Joker. S6 does it on any Severe.

So it depends on what you need out of it. If you just want to disable Assets with a slightly higher probability of hitting while being well within the threat range of the Titan, AV5 S3 shots might work out for you because you have a better chance of hitting in the first place in spite of the lower chance of damaging.

The real weakness that I see in it is it may not shoot at Fireteams within 8 inches of it.

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But what I really don't like about it's intended role as titan hunter - it's not mobile enough to find a good firing spot and doesn't ignore LoS, so it can't shoot over enemy fireteams on the Titan at all.

So it seems like it's just not good at fulfilling it's only role.

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Artillery is traditionally a harassment and interdiction asset. You park it as far from the front lines as you can, and you use its fires to force or restrict movement.

For 3 scrip and parking it on a hill or other elevated location (which changes LOS as @Clement already mentioned)...

Quote

Elevated: A Fireteam whose base is entirely within this terrain can draw sight lines through non-Titan Fireteams and Low Terrain.

...it can change how your opponent does things.

Even if you aren't elevated, if they're constantly trying to keep the Titan screened from your Artillery, they're restricting their own movement. If you are elevated, then it makes it extremely dangerous for your opponent to move the Titan into places where it might get more work done.

This is not a mode of play that matches everyone's playstyle, but for people who like this mode of play who are looking at a table that supports using Artillery, it can be very effective.

If your table doesn't support Artillery (i.e. no elevated terrain in your deployment area or lots of LOS-blocking Terrain in the middle that's not also Low Terrain), then yeah, its use will be limited.

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5 hours ago, Tris said:

Focused effort to mitigate cover?

Focused effort can give you an inspired token for +2 AV on a duel.  That neatly cancels out the -2 AV for shooting at something in cover.

 

Elevated terrain is VERY good for ranged units in general, improving their LOS by seeing over other non-Titans.  It also provides some protection for when/if melee squads come to fight.

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Well, I can see the use in glory to severely debuff units, but I'm really noticing how hard it is to get units into glory in King's Empire outside of Charles and the Rifle Corps. So I've accepted Infiltrators and the motor scout will reach glory once every full moon and something like Field intelligence corps need a sharpshooter to get good odds.

I just don't see how I can get the Artillery Team into glory without shooting suboptimal targets unless playing against abyssinia's mini titans. The main gun is for titan hunting so aiming to nuke an Infiltrators or Basotho Cavalry fireteam for example (who still have higher df than your av) just to go to glory and do a completely different role than the main gun leaves me miffed.

That the Rail Gun just seems strictly better once it's charged (and not too bad not charged, if it hits the sane as the Artillery, it's getting a str 4 hit with piercing) and against any target while also being cheaper, having a smaller footprint which helps to get clean shots and with Toughness attached, not that frail kind of adds salt to the wound.

I do intend to try 1 or 2 proxied to see if I can get some mileage. Thanks to deploying after units and titans it should have an easy time to at least ensure early game relevance

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i think it is meant to be anti - abyssynia piece. i just don't see it playing against CotBM,maybe against GH, but with no good targets (maybe their titan - i did not play against it yet though). Also, if someone is using units to screen their titan, they are often not fighting optimally against my units - if i can get that for 3 scrip, that may be a good tradeoff. 

Regarding bringing it to glory, i really like Kings Hand trigger to bring unit to glory. it can help artillery as well, but i don't expect them to be within 8 of each other unless i am on defensive and in turn 3-4, so quite late in the game.

Also, one more conisderation - do you play on 48' or 72' board? Utility of many units (e.g. infiltrators) changes with that, when playing on 48x48 board it is much easier to hide some units, or to put them at distance. with artillery, you can't really just hide from everything, you can shoot at many spots  at the board (though with cover). 

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I did not play the artillery yet, but the problem I see is, that even when inspire tokens may cancel cover, it's only av3. So even when putting a high card in the duel, the defender may win with a medium high card. Or use his own inspire tokens. For shooting at titans, the artillery may work. I'm not sure yet, if that's enough for me. To be honest, I would have an artillery piece expected to have indirect fire and built in area and a reasonable av. 

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more than likely this should have either removed LoS or had been a titan. thought he latter has weird upgrade issues. without either best solution is to get it elevated if it sees over most problems it starts acting as a 5 av instead of a 3 (with inspired) and then this bad boy can do some work. also would have been fun if it could create hazardous 6 zone (continuous shelling) until it's next activation or end of turn.

 

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On 3/7/2019 at 2:18 AM, Merchant said:

In the end it really needs a buff when you compare it to the 30% cheaper rail gunner.

 
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Yeah, if I could swap the Artillery for railgunners, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Thankfully I think it's the only true dud in our faction, and the rest go from conditionally useful to amazing.

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I dont think any unit should be a dud, especially when it accounts for 10% (+) of our(or any) faction. Even if it's niche it should be playable in some way...

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8 hours ago, Merchant said:

I dont think any unit should be a dud, especially when it accounts for 10% (+) of our(or any) faction. Even if it's niche it should be playable in some way...

Definitely agree, it's more of a "could been worse" comment since god forbid the Rifle Corps were the dud. Also, don't know if the other factions have such a bad dud as well, I've never seen Broken on the table for example, but don't know if it's cause they are bad or just overshadowed.

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I think the broken are designed for a self mill build was talking about them with a friend. It's more of a niche specialist but it has a place... a design space for itself. while artillery doesn't. 

I almost feel like the Heavy shelling should be on the front side or at least give the unit area on all it's attacks.

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