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Hazardous Terrain

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

 

The charge action just moves you. The attack action is a separate action. so 2 damage. 

Where is this clarified? I read:

Quote

Charge

Once per Activation. Cannot be declared while engaged. Push this model up to its Mv in inches. It may then take a close Action that does not count against its Action limit.

Forgive me but I'm sure you are more familiar with the rules set than I am and where to find these things.

Where in the rulebook does it say the attack is a brand new action separate from the charge, and should be treated as such? To me, I read the moving and the taking of the attack as within the charge action, therefore only 1 dmg. Have Wyrd clarified their intent for this?

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Quote

P.26

Actions Generated by Effects
Many effects in Malifaux, (such as Actions, Abilities, and Triggers) can cause a model to take an Action.


When this happens, the new Action is always 
resolved after the previous Action is completely 
resolved, including any “After Resolving” effects, but before any new Action can be taken.


Actions generated in this way follow the normal 
sequence for Actions and do not count against a 
model’s Action limit.

Found it. All clued up now, I agree it would be 2 dmg.

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Different Question just for Clarification:

A Model starts its movement in the terrain - lets say being pushed out or wanting to leave the terrain by its own (walk action).

We had a little dispute about the term "through" in the hazardous text part.

Question: Does a model, already being within the terrain, suffer the effect if it moves out of it?

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9 minutes ago, Sebi said:

Different Question just for Clarification:

A Model starts its movement in the terrain - lets say being pushed out or wanting to leave the terrain by its own (walk action).

We had a little dispute about the term "through" in the hazardous text part.

Question: Does a model, already being within the terrain, suffer the effect if it moves out of it?

Yes.

If you start your movement in terrain and move, you will count as having moved through it. (The place rules on page 14 also support these).

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5 hours ago, Adran said:

Yes.

If you start your movement in terrain and move, you will count as having moved through it. (The place rules on page 14 also support these).

What if you are in hazardous terrain, but another model pushes or places you out of it?

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Just now, Mycellanious said:

What if you are in hazardous terrain, but another model pushes or places you out of it?

Did the model start the movement in the terrain? Did it move?

The source of the movement doesn't matter. the model has to move through the terrain during an action or ability. That could be someone else's action that pushes the model through it, the model has still moved through hazardous terrain.

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Guys, I'm serious. Hazardous terrain needs to be provoked on movement only, or once per activation, or SOMETHING! I did something like 15 damage with snapping plants in a single turn! I had to flip a single 5. Does this not scream "huge problem" to literally anyone else?
Or I will walk into M3E tournaments where the TO wants you to think he's not like other uncool moms and lets DMH get in and melt everything to death with Lilith. And I'm only a big fish in my tiny little pond, I can't imagine what others might do with this. Run it off at the pass! 
 

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12 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Guys, I'm serious. Hazardous terrain needs to be provoked on movement only, or once per activation, or SOMETHING! I did something like 15 damage with snapping plants in a single turn! I had to flip a single 5. Does this not scream "huge problem" to literally anyone else?
Or I will walk into M3E tournaments where the TO wants you to think he's not like other uncool moms and lets DMH get in and melt everything to death with Lilith. And I'm only a big fish in my tiny little pond, I can't imagine what others might do with this. Run it off at the pass! 
 

Did your opponents not just try and leave it with the first AP? I've faced several versions of the Hazardous stuff, and for most of my models I would just leave the hazardous area.

It can do that much damage, but most of the time that's the other players choice. Or were you also using actions to bring the enemy models to you?

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Adran said:

Did your opponents not just try and leave it with the first AP? I've faced several versions of the Hazardous stuff, and for most of my models I would just leave the hazardous area.

It can do that much damage, but most of the time that's the other players choice. Or were you also using actions to bring the enemy models to you?

That was the sad hilarity of the ‘friendly or enemy’ notation on the Captain’s shockwaves—Ironsides’ models passed them both without the cards to cheat to fail. :(

Otherwise the disengaging strike would have been, what, stat 6 with multiple models for the positive flip, to leave a model which had scooped up people base to base and a 3” range? Not great action economy. As it would have been for the Vent Steam bubble before that (Colette lured herself out via showgirl, another turn had to Presto-Chango into a different side of the Hoffball) and the Vent Steam bubble before that (I forget how Pandora left...wait, I pushed her out myself because the stunned of Daze was too juicy to not apply) and the Inferno bubble before that (now that was a gamble won on flips, if Misaki hadn’t killed Sonnia in that assault she would have been in Scorch the Soul danger zone from all the burning taken) and the doubled hazardous marker field before that (now that’s too long ago to remember clearly and I might have had one engaging model at best, but it was a melee crew opposing who didn’t yet believe it would be that suicidal to just power through it—hazardous rules have since changed) and the Snapping Plants  aura before that when the models trying to leave were Distracted and therefore on negative flips to leave (now far too far back to remember the opposing crew, let alone details)...

This meta’s rubric is ‘we know relative player strength, and if in any given match Gnomezilla is winning instead of just hanging on, something in this match needs adjustment’. Over months, I’m still using ping damage to punch well above my skill grade. Lilith vs. Ironsides (and to a lesser degree Hoffman vs. Colette*) was our meta finally laying the problem before yet another player, with forewarning and without me playing either side, to see if it was a fluke. It isn’t, apparently.

 

*With the Colette player being very new to wargaming, I will note with happiness she had the only match-up here where the victim of hazardous was able to leave it in an efficient manner. We haven’t drilled ‘killing equals efficiency of actions’ into her brain yet...

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

Or were you also using actions to bring the enemy models to you?

Lilith can and did Tangle Shadows herself into a melee, and with her friends also present later to tarpit the foe further. And even if they weren't there to help, Howard Langston and Ironsides only have moves that close the gap, and make use of a lack of gap. They were already in their ideal useful state. And they're not even a little unique in this regard. "Leave to go fight someone else or run schemes" sounds like a cool strategy in a box, but I, the even-non-Lilith hazardous user, have ways of moving the hazardous around and/or moving the foe back into it, if you're able to actually disengage in the first place. And even if your ideal solution worked exactly as you theorize, I'm still putting out - at best case scenario - a fast action aura that robs every model within reach of an AP and a hit point, AND they can't interact. 

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6 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Otherwise the disengaging strike would have been, what, stat 6 with multiple models for the positive flip, to leave a model which had scooped up people base to base and a 3” range? Not great action economy. 

I agree, but setting this up required more than just flipping a 5. Its not that hard to set up, but it does take up actions that may have been better used else where, and it does involve other card flipping.

I think I helped break several versions of hazardous in the closed beta, so I remember some of the pain. Doing 15 damage in a turn with snapping -plants at the moment seems to me either Lilith focused strongly on that (making strong use of lures and pushes in her crew) and either the other player wasn't trying to prevent it or just played badly. (That may also have including hiring a bad crew to face Lilith).

2 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

Lilith can and did Tangle Shadows herself into a melee, and with her friends also present later to tarpit the foe further. And even if they weren't there to help, Howard Langston and Ironsides only have moves that close the gap, and make use of a lack of gap. They were already in their ideal useful state. And they're not even a little unique in this regard. "Leave to go fight someone else or run schemes" sounds like a cool strategy in a box, but I, the even-non-Lilith hazardous user, have ways of moving the hazardous around and/or moving the foe back into it, if you're able to actually disengage in the first place. And even if your ideal solution worked exactly as you theorize, I'm still putting out at best case scenario a fast action aura that robs every model within 3 of an AP and a hit point, AND they can't interact. 

I can come up with better cases, but yes I agree its a good action. Iironsides as a largely group together master is especially suceptabel to this. that said...

 

Ironsides can move friendly models away, (possibly if she is far enough away from lilith)

Amina can push models out of the hazardous

Captain can push the aura away

Howard can push away, or move the aura (Granted it will still be on him, but he can then walk out if he wants, and the other models will be safe) or just put up his own aura first. And if he is engaging a large number of enemy models then vent steam is great to get off early.

 

 

 

 

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@Adran Name a crew I can have my foe play to minimize the aura, outside of being completely immune to it a la incorporeal, for the express purpose of seeing if it is avoidable by in-game-play, and we will play it. I feel this is more difficult than you're giving it credit for, but I can't play you, so I can at least give you the opportunity to set the terms of the trial. 

Edit: Unless youre in the Austin, TX area, then like, come fight me :)
Edit 2, Return of the Edit: Or if you're down to explain to me how Vassal works

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I was wondering if a variation on Up Yours, Nekima (lots of arachnids) could ignore the black blood long enough to cope with the snapping plants. You’d wipe an automaton off the table ASAP...

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1 minute ago, Gnomezilla said:

I was wondering if a variation on Up Yours, Nekima (lots of arachnids) could ignore the black blood long enough to cope with the snapping plants. You’d wipe an automaton off the table ASAP...

At least I'd feel vindicated from the built in Onslaught triggers damaging the armored models too. Nekima might actually hop off the bench and come help rather than watching Lilith melt the whole crew this time.

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3 hours ago, Kharnage said:

Guys, I'm serious. Hazardous terrain needs to be provoked on movement only, or once per activation, or SOMETHING! I did something like 15 damage with snapping plants in a single turn! I had to flip a single 5. Does this not scream "huge problem" to literally anyone else?
Or I will walk into M3E tournaments where the TO wants you to think he's not like other uncool moms and lets DMH get in and melt everything to death with Lilith. And I'm only a big fish in my tiny little pond, I can't imagine what others might do with this. Run it off at the pass! 
 

If you're talking about this battle report, 

you didn't do anywhere close to 15 hazardous damage in one turn(assuming it was all tracked correctly). There was close 21 ping damage, but 2/3 of it was from black blood. As for avoiding it, there were plenty of ways available to the Ironsides crew that didn't involve wasting AP just walking out. Howard has the Heave trigger and could just place Lilith so that she doesn't have a bunch of models in the aura. Also, Ironsides pulling in the Mature Nephilim to beat on it while standing in Lilith's aura was a questionable decision, and why does it look like Lilith was spending stones on the Mature Nephilim, a minion that doesn't have attuned, being attacked(assume that's supposed to be -1 for ironsides since Howard has attuned)? Why wasn't models failing Cyclone used to push scatter them all(like, immediately). 


Sorry if this is coming off as overly critical, but there were a lot of options available to get rid of ping damage, and literally none of it was used.

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@santaclaws01 Howard was top-decking at that point, being out of stones after much prevention, and flipped crows; Lilith discarded stones from Howard’s execute triggers.

There is one mistake in the batrep: one pustule attack (the one which splashed three models) hit the trigger to repeat itself. I was away from my cards when transcribing and wasn’t sure Swift Action was available, so I only typed it in once. Add three more splash damage.

As noted in reply to Adran above, cyclone hit friendly and enemy alike, but everyone passed and Ironsides had no cards left to cheat down. I’m not sure why. Ping damage can drain stones as quickly as breathing, but since there are no saves to be made it doesn’t cost cards.

Pulling the mature in prevented a VP from Outflank. (From the peanut gallery I suggested Ironsides use I’ve Got Your Back to reposition someone out of splash range if not hazardous range—don’t know why he didn’t.)

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17 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

you didn't do anywhere close to 15 hazardous damage in one turn(assuming it was all tracked correctly).

It wasn't. Mouse suffered a grand total of 4 hazardous damage, since he spent both AP and triggered his swift twice all in the aura, Captain used his Grit Dash and suffered a point there, there were other untracked instances.

19 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

why does it look like Lilith was spending stones on the Mature Nephilim, a minion that doesn't have attuned, being attacked(assume that's supposed to be -1 for ironsides since Howard has attuned)?

Because I was using it to dodge out of executed, Howard top-decked crows.

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13 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

 Howard was top-decking at that point, being out of stones after much prevention, and flipped crows; Lilith discarded stones from Howard’s execute triggers.

Ah, don't know why I didn't think about that.
 

14 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

As noted in reply to Adran above, cyclone hit friendly and enemy alike, but everyone passed and Ironsides had no cards left to cheat down. I’m not sure why. Ping damage can drain stones as quickly as breathing, but since there are no saves to be made it doesn’t cost cards.

I mean why wasn't it used earlier in the turn? It could have been used the activation after Lilith came in and then there would be no ping damage from her for the rest of that turn.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Pulling the mature in prevented a VP from Outflank. (From the peanut gallery I suggested Ironsides use I’ve Got Your Back to reposition someone out of splash range if not hazardous range—don’t know why he didn’t.)

That's fair, not a move I would do since a 10ss beater model being used to score a scheme that any model can on one of the easiest schemes to score the first point for sounds fine to me.

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It might have been something closer to 12 damage Turn 2, I think I might have included the start of turn 3 in my mind. 4 for mouse's turn, 3 for Langston 2 AP and including being Tangled (and an avoided fast action to not provoke more), 1 for Fitzsimmon's charge through it but not ending in it, 1 for the Captain Dash, 3 for Ironsides' turn (and an avoided fast action to not provoke more). 

My mild exaggeration taken into account, 12 damage for a single 5, and his entire gameplan being rewritten to deal with an aura that cost me basically nothing to put into effect is ludicrous. It's the same issue I had with Molly's Lethe's Caress. It's braindead constant damage with no real effort required other than to be paying attention enough to interrupt my opponent at the end of every action with "oh, and you suffer a damage."

Edit: And I realize, as a Nephilim player, that we are the lords and masters of braindead constant damage, but that by no means should give me a pass to do even more of it.

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7 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

It wasn't. Mouse suffered a grand total of 4 hazardous damage, since he spent both AP and triggered his swift twice all in the aura, Captain used his Grit Dash and suffered a point there, there were other untracked instances....

Oh, that was the bit about Dash! Sorry, I was a tad more tuned into Austin’s wet palette prepping tutorial at that point, missed the significance of his Grit being a move. And yeah, Mouse just melted trying to keep his healing ahead of the incoming damage.

 

 

Oh, and in the earlier recounting I forgot another Vent Steam game (Katamari Damacy I, vs. Nekima) where Candy died slowly even though she kept debuffing the big scary model nearby into damage-reduced-by-two stunned condition. Nephilim kept picking her up and adjusting her position by fractions of an inch to try and evade the hazardous, and these days would take damage for their trouble doing so.

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I'm a strong believer that Hazardous should proc once per activation per source and the strength of Hazardous should be bumped up a bit to compensate. It's absurd that currently one of the best options to deal with it is to literally give up on taking actions

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12 minutes ago, retnab said:

I'm a strong believer that Hazardous should proc once per activation per source and the strength of Hazardous should be bumped up a bit to compensate. It's absurd that currently one of the best options to deal with it is to literally give up on taking actions

What would happen to Pyre Markers then? Increase the Burning applied?

Also, how would Reva’s team stop from burning to death with the increase?

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2 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

What would happen to Pyre Markers then? Increase the Burning applied?

Also, how would Reva’s team stop from burning to death with the increase?

I imagine they would be reworked to be at a balanced state.

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6 minutes ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

What would happen to Pyre Markers then? Increase the Burning applied?

Also, how would Reva’s team stop from burning to death with the increase?

That's the implication. Even once an activation instead of once per action makes Reva stack the condition at a similar rate if we bumped it to Hazardous (Burning 2)
If you find that to be unsatisfactory, I have two questions for you.
1: Do you believe that the current state of Hazardous to be too much, or in a good place?
2: If you do believe that it is too much, what is your proposed solution, if not that? If you do not believe it is too much, should Lilith, Ama No Zako, and Jaakuna Matata (What a wonderful phrase! Sorry, had to) and other hazardous generators be reworked for more intriguing experience, or are they also in a good spot?

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