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Immolated Rhino

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2 hours ago, DerangedGamer123 said:

So is Wyrd going to issue an errata on them I wonder?

I sure hope so, there`s a few glaring balancing issues, and the Rhino is the biggest offender atm :)

To answer your question though - nobody knows but Wyrd, and seeing as their latest errata/faq came without any sort of announcement (not neccessarily a bad thing) I doubt that we`ll know any more this time.

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21 hours ago, DerangedGamer123 said:

So is Wyrd going to issue an errata on them I wonder?

one can only hope, but their energy seems directed at getting M3e out currently.

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I'm sure something will come. I also know it's good to let things breathe a bit see what bubbles to the top and adjust at once instead of piecemeal. The rhino(s) are good they die to area without assets and that dmg by passes their tome power. Their are far more incidious and degenerate bits then the rhino. Although it's quite good.

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2 hours ago, rancor709 said:

I'm sure something will come. I also know it's good to let things breathe a bit see what bubbles to the top and adjust at once instead of piecemeal. The rhino(s) are good they die to area without assets and that dmg by passes their tome power. Their are far more incidious and degenerate bits then the rhino. Although it's quite good.

Area doesn't ignore the Shaken token discard if they are in glory and we have already established that they will always be packing Toughness, because why should't they?

Also, I consider Rhinos to currently be game enjoyment killing filth, so I'm intrigued at what things you consider even worse than them.

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Some of the degenerate interactions between kings empire commanders and keep calm and carry on. Namely the volume of tactic token generation coupled with the stratagems that directly affect operations. The rhino exists its very strong piece but its effect is restricted to its threat. The tactics token volume generation combined with the stratagems that directly lead to points swings means I have far less concerns for this. Additionally I have concerns about the volume of card draw possible with the mechanized infantry really Abyssinia card draw in general. Additionally margaret belle a resource free up to 16" place combined with a free tactical action with access to an asset that allows for you to force the opponent to hit themselves in a faction with resource advantages. 

I'm not meaning to minimize the rhino and its affect but for myself, I have far less concern around a strong single fireteam then I do with significant resource advantages. Does the rhino need a look yes, but it's not near my public enemy number 1.

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4 hours ago, rancor709 said:

Some of the degenerate interactions between kings empire commanders and keep calm and carry on. Namely the volume of tactic token generation coupled with the stratagems that directly affect operations. The rhino exists its very strong piece but its effect is restricted to its threat. The tactics token volume generation combined with the stratagems that directly lead to points swings means I have far less concerns for this. Additionally I have concerns about the volume of card draw possible with the mechanized infantry really Abyssinia card draw in general. Additionally margaret belle a resource free up to 16" place combined with a free tactical action with access to an asset that allows for you to force the opponent to hit themselves in a faction with resource advantages. 

I'm not meaning to minimize the rhino and its affect but for myself, I have far less concern around a strong single fireteam then I do with significant resource advantages. Does the rhino need a look yes, but it's not near my public enemy number 1.

From what I'm reading, it pretty much just means "Kassa is broken on King's Empire" and I agree. She has been so much better for me than Edmonton and Margaret that it's not even funny and I really dislike that since half her interactions are very gamey, though changing Keep Calm and Carry on to be squad only would solve most of that and making her repair be an actual repair would cover the rest. We also have a lot of Cult here, so we focus on what we see, I'm the only King's Empire that has been playing with Kassa for now.

If you remove Kassa from the equation I don't really see the other issues you state with the King's Empire, they go from a faction with resource advantage to the direct opposite (can't stress enough how intense the before and after using Kassa effect was), since if you don't have any Abyssinia, their commanders are straight average when it comes to Ta generation unless you spam Medal of Honor and all of the card draw is very conditional except for Margaret in glory.

Speaking of Margaret, I'm no savant with her, far from it, but if she is in a possition where she can use Ta tokens to pass out damage, how hard is it to just desingage from her and shoot her into oblivion? Most King's Empire units simply cannot keep up with her and if she engages nothing, that rule is blank text. As an objective grabber she is gold, won't deny that. Might be Gibbering is badly equiped to deal with her since they have less guns, but Cult, Abyssinia and King's should be able to at least blow an asset or even both in a coordinated strike activation if the only thing keeping her alive is the Ta redirect.

Finally, have barely faced Abyssinia so haven't really seen the card draw engine in proper action (only faced them once in 1 Commander and no engineers) but theory dictates it's very potent, so you con confirm as an Abyssinian that it's too much?

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12 hours ago, rancor709 said:

Some of the degenerate interactions between kings empire commanders and keep calm and carry on. Namely the volume of tactic token generation coupled with the stratagems that directly affect operations. The rhino exists its very strong piece but its effect is restricted to its threat. The tactics token volume generation combined with the stratagems that directly lead to points swings means I have far less concerns for this. Additionally I have concerns about the volume of card draw possible with the mechanized infantry really Abyssinia card draw in general. Additionally margaret belle a resource free up to 16" place combined with a free tactical action with access to an asset that allows for you to force the opponent to hit themselves in a faction with resource advantages. 

I'm not meaning to minimize the rhino and its affect but for myself, I have far less concern around a strong single fireteam then I do with significant resource advantages. Does the rhino need a look yes, but it's not near my public enemy number 1.

Could I ask you to provide examples of which models/stratagems you mean here? :)

 

And how does Abyssinias Mechanized Infantry draw any more cards than their other units?

 

Also, I wouldn`t say that KE is a faction with resource advantages, seeing as all of that comes from Abyssinian units.

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8 hours ago, Razhem said:

Finally, have barely faced Abyssinia so haven't really seen the card draw engine in proper action (only faced them once in 1 Commander and no engineers) but theory dictates it's very potent, so you con confirm as an Abyssinian that it's too much?

Typically I spend 0 to 1 TAC tokens on card draw every turn after the first and I start and end every turn with 5 to 6 cards, usually having to discard one or two during the turn as well.

The Engineer's ranged attack is also very potent for how he can just passively draw more cards. I'd like it to be a draw / discard instead, as a starting point. It's also very easy for the Rail Gunner to fidget with their gun every turn for 1-2 cards (making great use of low tomes). 

1 hour ago, Tris said:

And how does Abyssinias Mechanized Infantry draw any more cards than their other units?

When tracer rounds provides you a +1 AV bonus for the other fire teams it's very easy to use versatile tactics to generate multiple card draws a turn. For the low low cost of -2 av you can add a tome to your duel total. Plus you'd almost always pack an engineer into the team. 

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On 2/17/2019 at 3:47 PM, Razhem said:

Because it also comes back to that. The Rhino being stupedly hard to kill is not a problem, the Rhino being stupedluy hard to kill, while having a huge aura that restricts Morale actions [...] and having the most dangerous AOE attack in the game [is] what makes it so over the top and oppressive.

These are exactly my thoughts on the Rhino. It's just too tough, too damaging and too fast (just by virtue of being a Cult unit) for a unit that's supposed to cost 3 scrip.

The Rhino can be killed, yes, but the effort required is far in excess of what it's worth. You need to be either lucky, or devote multiple units and a hand of tomes to finishing it off before its Fire Novas take those units with it.  It's only weakness is that an Immolated Rhino tends to suck up most/all of the Cult player's shaken tokens, especially if you've taken two. In turn that makes it much harder for the rest of the company to flip to Glory. But given the power of these Rhinos, it's not that big an issue.

Lately, I've just switched to taking Bin Nguyen instead. He actually plays very similarly to the Rhino (right down to the damage pulse), but is not nearly so oppressive to face. I'm trying to attract players to the game, but plonking a Rhino on the table just isn't conducive to that.

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On 3/9/2019 at 3:31 AM, rancor709 said:

Some of the degenerate interactions between kings empire commanders and keep calm and carry on. Namely the volume of tactic token generation coupled with the stratagems that directly affect operations. The rhino exists its very strong piece but its effect is restricted to its threat. The tactics token volume generation combined with the stratagems that directly lead to points swings means I have far less concerns for this. Additionally I have concerns about the volume of card draw possible with the mechanized infantry really Abyssinia card draw in general. Additionally margaret belle a resource free up to 16" place combined with a free tactical action with access to an asset that allows for you to force the opponent to hit themselves in a faction with resource advantages. 

I'm not meaning to minimize the rhino and its affect but for myself, I have far less concern around a strong single fireteam then I do with significant resource advantages. Does the rhino need a look yes, but it's not near my public enemy number 1.

having played abyssinia now I would say I usually had about 2 cards in hand at any one time and sometimes not even that many so the card draw isnt that great (as they have to use it for the upgrades too). 

compared to facing 1 or more rhinos where you need tomes in hand to even think about attacking them as cant rely on top decking and then hope they dont have shaken tokens on top of the toughness upgrade. for a 3.5 scrip model it really is an NPE

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Some conflicting experiences between @necroon and @katadder... Necroon, mind explaining how you have such potent draw and how you use your prototypes? I imagine at least one unit if not 2 of Electrocutioners are a staple, Unati also adds more prototype use with hand rotation and I wouldn't be surprised Kassa is your other commander doing the repair trick with a Dreadnought and a unit of Mechanized Infantry. Add some Engineers in the mix and I can definitely see how you can draw a ton, but what about the card spending ratio?

Leaving the tangential discussion about Abyssinia's resource generation and it's use on King's Empire, I simply can't avoid despising the Rhinos more. Extra resources means the opponent gets to do more, sure, but it's not as singlesidedly demoralizing as losing a full unit in the first few activations without being able to do much about it, which has already happened to me a few times. Bin Nguyen is similar yet a lot less oppressive simply because he has the decency of not using portals and allows you to resist (left a poor opponent slackjawed when I happened to pass all of the checks raw, though in another match it punched a respectable hole yet I was still able to at least minimize on the fireteam I cared most about).

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@Razhem

I will do my best to answer your questions. 

I typically only use Electrocutioners with Unathi, otherwise preferring the 10 Scrip slot for a Dreadnaught (3 mounted gunners means 4 attacks with a chance of Tome for card draw in addition to a powerful self sufficient unit that can answer a lot of questions with the auto pinned tokens, a Titan's ability to interact which is invaluable with the 1" restriction in the tournament document, and free STR hit from moving, or being moved by crow runners). 

My Prototype usage is fluid, given it's timing, and based around the restrictions on Overclocked. If a unit has an engineer (2-3 Units with a Prototype are staple for me) they get a Prototype and 1-2 of my commanders will usually get a prototype (I really like Discuss Grenades on Lord of Steel). Crow Runners don't get one (as they never get an engineer) and usually Overclock into Experimental Rocket Launcher or Shock Batons, depending on how my opponent reacts to them and where their positioning is turn 2. I usually give Mechanized Active Defense Armor as they have become a priority target depending on the match-up (It helps them not get turn one'd by Cult but doesn't guarantee they will survive the initial onslaught, either). 

On the usage of force make-up and commander choice: I tend to pick one commander that I believe will be good for the operation, fill in some units, and then select the second commander. I have not been using Kassa's Emergency Repair to flip undamage assets as, although allowed by RAW, I just don't like the interaction (I didn't do so at CaptainCon, either). If we make it to another Errata and it's still there I'll use it. Kassa has a Tome built into her gun, which is pretty dang good, so I either repair damaged assets or aim for targets to get card draw, give pinned tokens to (I always take the KE Envoy), and do a bit of damage here and there. A railgunner with Toughness (or two, depending on the Operation) can easily accomplish a decent bit of card draw. They are great for scenarios with backfield objectives and have a great attack they can launch at a target that enters their line of sight (I tend to not Glory them with the 6+ Margin, though, as they can't just keep ditching low tomes and Inspired tokens for free cards). 

I don't have a play-by-play for my card usage, and I certainly have games with a turn or two were I don't end with "all the cards" in my hand or decide to take a turn 4 or turn 5 card or two, but that's always the result of a choice between an aggressive activation here or there with a few key units, me purposely using The Long Game to mess with activation and jump on a foe trying to take a defensive turn, or ditching crows for Shielded. I also have turns where decisive first few activations see both opponents with no fate hand left and I still enter the next turn with 5 or 6 cards in hand. I do tend to have to reshuffle my deck nearly every turn and often before my regular CotBM opponent.

I hope this answers some of your questions - If not let me know and I can try and make sure my next game, and it's resulting video batrep (which my regular opponent, @Nutella, is taking the time to upload to a YouTube Channel from here on out) highlight the sort of interactions that have been discussed. 

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Christ @necroon, that's a lot more detail than I expected! Definitely looks like you've played a good chunk. Kind of surprised (and mildly terrified) that you don't even need to do the Kassa abuse to get all those resources. Her machinegun action doesn't exist for me since I either spam the fake repair trick and get the King's Hand to shoot more, from now on I'm going to stop using the Kassa trick though (except against our top player, he plays cult and Rhinos without mercy and I need all the help I can get against him) and want to give her the binoculars to just make her an obey bot while she is not repairing.

Out of curiosity, since you always declare Empire envoy, do you use any empire assets or squads? I would expect that Thrace adds more value if you only do it for the King's Empire envoy card perks but looking at the Abyssinia assets I've considered taking the Abyssinia envoy just to bring the Recording Device for example. Or is it more what King's Empire gets out of Abyssinia then the other way around?

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11 minutes ago, Razhem said:

Out of curiosity, since you always declare Empire envoy, do you use any empire assets or squads? I would expect that Thrace adds more value if you only do it for the King's Empire envoy card perks but looking at the Abyssinia assets I've considered taking the Abyssinia envoy just to bring the Recording Device for example. Or is it more what King's Empire gets out of Abyssinia then the other way around?

I'm not Necroon, but :P IMO if you're taking Kassa in Abyssinia you basically have to take the KE Envoy just to get access to her Bigger Is Better asset (take it and Medal of Honor with two Titans and her Tactics value is 5, which is a lot of Tactics Tokens!).  Plus, RRC's auto-pinned from ranged is good and Field Intel Corps are godlike into Scavenge and Supply Traps.

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29 minutes ago, necroon said:

I, as is usually the case, agree with @retnab :D

As for playing I have been doing 1-3 games a week since at least the KS Rules document was released. 

God I wish I could get that much of a groove on! I'm noticed that there's nothing being mentioned about Gibbering Hordes though, are they the percieved weakest then? I only played against them once and it was only 2 turns, from what I understand they are all about the late game (also the poor alpha crawler flipped shit all game)

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1 hour ago, Razhem said:

God I wish I could get that much of a groove on! I'm noticed that there's nothing being mentioned about Gibbering Hordes though, are they the percieved weakest then?

I really like Gibbering Hordes. I played them the most before getting physical product. It's a fine balance between reinforcements, Endless Numbers, and eating your own units. I will probably return to them in June sometime - I switched to Abys as I had the least amount of play time with them and wanted to try something "new".  I saw a ton of GH players at CaptainCon. They all did great, too. Just a bit higher of a learning curve and since GH relies on Commanders a bit more heavily then the other Allegiances (Think "Conservation of Ninjutsu" troupe) they definitely perform better at a 2 commander level. 

1 hour ago, Razhem said:

(also the poor alpha crawler flipped shit all game)

Yeah that certainly won't help hahaha. I never ended up playing a game with them without one. They are really cool.

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I agree with the consensus that GH has a rather tough difficulty curve and due to the synergistic nature of the army and the lack of having all the pieces, some "builds" aren't even actually available yet (SPECKLES I'M LOOKING AT YOU). I lost (nearly) all of my early games with them, and I was the one of the two of us who read the rules!! So yeah, definitely gonna be a bit before the big GH players come out ahead, especially while we wait for some of our more critical units to hit shelves.

After some games and a familiarity with the system, I can comfortably say that they perform consistently well as long as you keep the game close until turn 4. By then, hopefully, attrition will have run it's course.

And as a word of advice to any who are looking at this... PROTECT YOUR DAMN KARKINOI, they are NOT there to lead the charge! lol

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1 hour ago, SAYNE said:

And as a word of advice to any who are looking at this... PROTECT YOUR DAMN KARKINOI, they are NOT there to lead the charge! lol

You say that, but when properly fed having them at Df 8 Ar 10 and attacking on AV 8 is pretty scary to me :P 

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6 hours ago, MuMantai said:

Yes, it is only to actions. Also, Armor is not an acting value, as the penetration flip is not a duel :)

But Armor is declared as an AV in the card explanation section in the front of the book. :)

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On the subject of Abyssinia, I think the card draw was on paper meant to fuel discards for "The Long Game" and prototype actions. Those were in turn were meant to balance out Abyssinia being the elite army in the game. It is certainly a tough balancing point.

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