Jump to content

Immolated Rhino


BimVooDoo

Recommended Posts

Which is where token management and manipulation comes into play. There's stuff for handing out or removing tokens beyond just spending them. If you can hand out any token of your choice on an attack, handing an inspired token removes one of the shaken instead.

Then, a later attack that knocks the Rhino from glory lets you use the last remaining token to increase your margin so that you can bump the Strength of your attack. Then, as a Cult player already mentioned: cheat in the lowest workable Tome you have that'll let you do enough damage to remove the Rhino from play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Pkropka said:

This game is all about card management. So instead of complaining maybe start using it? Draw 6 cards instead of stratagem. Do a mid turn card draw. Gather all tomes you can have. And then kill rhino in one go. If you are unlucky and don't get enough tomes wait for turn 2. You need ANY tome to wound it if you manage your attacks smart.

Yesterday I saw my opponent trying to kill my Rhino using just dumb luck. He failed miserably, I understand his frustration. But to be honest he didn't prepare to fight my Rhino. Next time I expect him to play well.

And keep in mind that Rhinos require shaken tokens to survive. This means no shaken tokens elsewhere. That hurts me most - Rhinos slow down rest of company going to glory because they consume all shaken tokens.

That sounds great in theory, but on some missions, you really need those tokens, and even then, drawing doesn't really garuantee you anything. If I don't draw any tomes, well, Rhinos aren't taking any damage that turn for sure and if I draw a couple of high tomes, suddenly, the likely high cards on my hand have to go to penetration flips. Also, please do explain to me how I can do mid turn card draw? King's Empire has barely any card draw at all for example, from what I've seen, Abyssinia are the only ones that reliably can draw cards in the middle of the turn. And now, suddenly, my game plan is warped even more just because I'm playing against cult, I have to move suboptimally to cover portals, I have to draw stratagems suboptimally as well now because hey, you need those tomes or you are going to have a bad time, I have to avoid using my Shaken effects as much as possible against Rhinos or anything with a Raving Madman since I'm doing you favors.

Also, your "no shaken tokens elsewhere" comment is kind of rich since it basically translates to "the rhinos are so awesome that they monopolise all my resources! Why are they so good?", because 2 shaken tokens are more then enough to let them do their thing, they get 1 on themselves easilly with the Concentrate action and I'd dare say, that the absurd amount of resources required just to kill a Rhino with 2 tokens more than cover their script cost in spades. So sorry to say you get no pitty from me with that argument.

11 hours ago, retnab said:

Yes, but if it's down to just 1 then it can't just flip back and you can spend it on your next attack for the accuracy boost too.

 

10 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Which is where token management and manipulation comes into play. There's stuff for handing out or removing tokens beyond just spending them. If you can hand out any token of your choice on an attack, handing an inspired token removes one of the shaken instead.

Then, a later attack that knocks the Rhino from glory lets you use the last remaining token to increase your margin so that you can bump the Strength of your attack. Then, as a Cult player already mentioned: cheat in the lowest workable Tome you have that'll let you do enough damage to remove the Rhino from play.

I've been looking at options to remove from Glory on all factions, and well, Abyssinia has the Dreadnought on a trigger and the Stell Legion Titan automatically on it's ranged attack. There is also one of the Experimental equipment which removes from glory, so they are decently equiped to remove from Glory. But the kicker is they only have one model that removes tokens which is the Mechanized Corps Titan, so you have to do a pretty expensive one two, to remove a token and remove from glory to not be fully dependant on tomes on your hand.

Cult can only remove Glory with the Black Ops and portals while in glory and has no token removal whatsoever, so they have horrible tools to deal with Rhinos themselves

Gibbering Hordes can remove Glory with the Spined Crawlers in glory, but that's kind of a joke, they do have the Armoured Whelks which remove a token with their ranged attack and have a 3 margin trigger to remove glory, but it's on a ranged attack with a range of 8", so though the attack itself is fantastic, there are no garuantees.

Kings Empire seems to be the best equipped for this since Infiltratos can easilly remove 2 shaken in a single action, Margaret can use her Rapier Wit to strip tokens and her dagger to stab the Glory off and the King's Hand's Symbold of the Realm seems tailor made to screw with Rhinos, though these have their own issues since all of the relevant actions are Morale actions and Rhinos cancel those 6" from them which can lead to some very annoying situations depending on where the Rhino is.

All of these options I just mentioned also have to account that they have to actually hit (still a very respectable Df 6 on glory that Rhino) and that without a Tome, the grand majority of those actions aren't really doing any real damage anyway. Also, knowing how it's only very specific unit that can threaten the Rhinos, I would expect the Cult player to take advantage of their insane mobility to make it hard on the opponent to do the necessary steps to remove the Rhino. Again, for a 3.5 script model (because this think should always have Toughness on it, I don't see any situation where a Cult player would not at least bring 2 with Toughness, which suddenly makes "cheat in the lowest workable Tome you have that'll let you do enough damage to remove the Rhino from play." a bit of a joke, since in an optimum scenario of no Shaken on the Rhino, you need a lowish Tome and a mid to highish tome to kill one), let that sink in, and think if you have to go through the same number of hoops to kill other units of similar cost? The Gibbering Lamprea thing is the closest, and that one has the decency to not be immune to pinned tokens unless an Armoured Whelk is around and has nowhere near the table presence the Rhino has anyway.

Because it also comes back to that. The Rhino being stupedly hard to kill is not a problem, the Rhino being stupedluy hard to kill, while having a huge aura that restricts Morale actions (jolly reminder, that these are the actions that let you win the game and the ones your Commander's get to do for free to get value out of them) and having the most dangerous AOE attack in the game that doesn't involve killing the model that does it while also having a pretty damn solid Melee attack if it rushes in case it just needs to maximise strength what makes it so over the top and oppressive.

Also, yes, it's good to know how to deal with the Rhinos, but this is "whelp, Sandeep is what he is, so take as many counters as possible and avoid x, y and z and try to not be too miserable during the game" levels. So I appreciate the feedback, but I'm also not going to stay quiet on my absolute distaste for it in the hope that it gets nerfed in a future FAQ.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 8:15 AM, ClanAzule said:

So what your saying is that your opponents should have to configure their entire game strategy around reacting to a unit that costs 3 scrip with a .5 scrip asset attached?  

To be fair you do want to tier your lists vs your opponents in this game.... You know that faction you are playing against when you go to hir correct?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, DerangedGamer123 said:

To be fair you do want to tier your lists vs your opponents in this game.... You know that faction you are playing against when you go to hir correct?

Yes, the faction, not the 3.5 script model which you expect to see 2-3 of in every single optimized Cult list you face. And taking those counters can make you vulnerable to other cult pieces. The King's Hand is fantastic at dealing with Rhinos, it also gets countered hard by the ECB Black Ops and nothing in King's Empire is particularly good at dealing with those.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Razhem said:

Yes, the faction, not the 3.5 script model which you expect to see 2-3 of in every single optimized Cult list you face. And taking those counters can make you vulnerable to other cult pieces. The King's Hand is fantastic at dealing with Rhinos, it also gets countered hard by the ECB Black Ops and nothing in King's Empire is particularly good at dealing with those.

Dude tell me about it ECB is like wth do I do!

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Razhem said:

Yes, the faction, not the 3.5 script model which you expect to see 2-3 of in every single optimized Cult list you face. 

Isn't there a cap on Rhinos in tournament play to 1 per commander?  Or does Cult have ways of making/summoning more Rhinos...  I don't know Cult at all.

Not trying to detract from the overall point, just terrified of visions of a field of Rhinos coming across the table at me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Clement said:

Isn't there a cap on Rhinos in tournament play to 1 per commander?  Or does Cult have ways of making/summoning more Rhinos...  I don't know Cult at all.

Not trying to detract from the overall point, just terrified of visions of a field of Rhinos coming across the table at me.

I believe the cap is 1 per Commander in your garrison according to the Fields of Glory rules. In 1 commander events you have 2 in your garrison and on 2 commander events you have 3, which translates into 2 of the same and 3 of the same respectively.

This has very thankfully put a cap on spam lists, but 3 Rhinos in a 2 commander event is a very real scenario.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, DerangedGamer123 said:

Dude tell me about it ECB is like wth do I do!

Best I've seen is to try and engage them to at least blow resources to desingage since out of glory they have no melee action and if you can kill 1 fireteam to at least reduce the footprint and stop the triangle action from ever being an option, it's probably a good idea. But yeah, they are hellish to fully take down.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, Razhem said:

I believe the cap is 1 per Commander in your garrison according to the Fields of Glory rules. In 1 commander events you have 2 in your garrison and on 2 commander events you have 3, which translates into 2 of the same and 3 of the same respectively.

This has very thankfully put a cap on spam lists, but 3 Rhinos in a 2 commander event is a very real scenario.

The "One Commander" garrison containing 2 commanders is very confusing to a quick read.  Good to know it will only be 2-3 Rhinos I guess...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/21/2019 at 11:11 PM, Clement said:

The "One Commander" garrison containing 2 commanders is very confusing to a quick read.  Good to know it will only be 2-3 Rhinos I guess...

2-3 are plenty to cover most objectives. Normally it could be argued that they cant be everywhere but due to teleports that also is not true

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

So, played a tournament and had the pleasure to play against two Cult armies, one packing 2 rhinos and the other 3. So first game, cult buys the place a portal Stratagem, Femtom activates and primes a couple of Rhinos. On my turn I move a unit forward to cover a portal and wasn't too worried since I had deployed a decent range from the other portals, but oh wait, the stratagem gets played, portal pops on my back and I suddenly eat 2 rhinos to the face, one hitting 2 full units plus Edmonton and Thrace and the other Thrace and 4 fireteams. This ended with Thrace dead, the Grenadiers hurting and the Royal Rifle Corps with 3 one man fireteams. At that point I was just wondering what was even the point. My Grenadiers and Rifle corps got pinged later in the turn into oblivion and the third Rhino came in (moved thank to a Stalking Portal moving towards it, so could move and act) who then proceeded to move and kaboom punching another beefy hole on my other Rifle corps unit. This is without accounting for the Twisted Horrors activating twice (at least managed to kill one of the units between the Grenadiers and both Rifle Corps) and doing their 16" teleport on deck cycle. To add insult to injury, I dedicated the King's Hand to attempt to take out a Rhino and I was only able of stripping it's tokens and flipping it's Toughness.

Second game two rhinos pretty much did the same trick, though this time affected less fireteams since I spread more expecting it, this time it was Thrace, the King's Hand, Kassa and the Grenadiers who took both explosions. Grenadiers were whiped from the table before they even activated and Kassa had to drop an asset already (King's Hand and Thrace came mostly fine out of it). Thankfully, the rest of the crew wasn't being as aggressive and I was able to bring some pain back and the King's Hand was able to leave a Rhino without Toughness and tokens turn 1, activate first turn 2 and finish off the first and kill the second.

Thing is, I was using the Kassa card engine to get those tomes, god forbid she wasn't one of my commanders. And also thank god that the King's Hand seems tailor made to kill a 3.5 script model per turn. And yes, I noticed later thanks to the other King's Empire table that I can use the stratagem that cancels another stratagem to avoid the peekaboo portal explosion fest. But my god, how much stuff am I forced to do every time I play cult? My opponent said "just use lots of titans" to which my thought is "great, and if you spam 3 Rhinos and 3 Black Ops?" your crew ill deal with anything mine can deal while being better at objectives which is just demoralizing. Also, if you are another faction, you are pretty much boned, you simply cannot avoid the surprise portal Kaboom. Other players from other factions were also complaining about how absolutely mental the whole thing is.

I mean, why can they cheat the damage? Other aura explosions without resist can't be cheated, hell, others WITH resist can't be cheated (looking at you Artillery Strike), so why does the Rhino get the best of both worlds? This is of course without forgetting about the whole no morale action at 6", this time it wasn't a factor on my games, but certainly was on the last tournament.

They really really need to be looked at...

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Razhem said:

So, played a tournament and had the pleasure to play against two Cult armies, one packing 2 rhinos and the other 3. So first game, cult buys the place a portal Stratagem, Femtom activates and primes a couple of Rhinos. On my turn I move a unit forward to cover a portal and wasn't too worried since I had deployed a decent range from the other portals, but oh wait, the stratagem gets played, portal pops on my back and I suddenly eat 2 rhinos to the face, one hitting 2 full units plus Edmonton and Thrace and the other Thrace and 4 fireteams. This ended with Thrace dead, the Grenadiers hurting and the Royal Rifle Corps with 3 one man fireteams. At that point I was just wondering what was even the point. My Grenadiers and Rifle corps got pinged later in the turn into oblivion and the third Rhino came in (moved thank to a Stalking Portal moving towards it, so could move and act) who then proceeded to move and kaboom punching another beefy hole on my other Rifle corps unit. This is without accounting for the Twisted Horrors activating twice (at least managed to kill one of the units between the Grenadiers and both Rifle Corps) and doing their 16" teleport on deck cycle. To add insult to injury, I dedicated the King's Hand to attempt to take out a Rhino and I was only able of stripping it's tokens and flipping it's Toughness.

Second game two rhinos pretty much did the same trick, though this time affected less fireteams since I spread more expecting it, this time it was Thrace, the King's Hand, Kassa and the Grenadiers who took both explosions. Grenadiers were whiped from the table before they even activated and Kassa had to drop an asset already (King's Hand and Thrace came mostly fine out of it). Thankfully, the rest of the crew wasn't being as aggressive and I was able to bring some pain back and the King's Hand was able to leave a Rhino without Toughness and tokens turn 1, activate first turn 2 and finish off the first and kill the second.

Thing is, I was using the Kassa card engine to get those tomes, god forbid she wasn't one of my commanders. And also thank god that the King's Hand seems tailor made to kill a 3.5 script model per turn. And yes, I noticed later thanks to the other King's Empire table that I can use the stratagem that cancels another stratagem to avoid the peekaboo portal explosion fest. But my god, how much stuff am I forced to do every time I play cult? My opponent said "just use lots of titans" to which my thought is "great, and if you spam 3 Rhinos and 3 Black Ops?" your crew ill deal with anything mine can deal while being better at objectives which is just demoralizing. Also, if you are another faction, you are pretty much boned, you simply cannot avoid the surprise portal Kaboom. Other players from other factions were also complaining about how absolutely mental the whole thing is.

I mean, why can they cheat the damage? Other aura explosions without resist can't be cheated, hell, others WITH resist can't be cheated (looking at you Artillery Strike), so why does the Rhino get the best of both worlds? This is of course without forgetting about the whole no morale action at 6", this time it wasn't a factor on my games, but certainly was on the last tournament.

They really really need to be looked at...

Yeah this is game killer stuff, no idea how these got out of playtesting.  not only are they stupid overpowered for their cost, they create a very negative play experience for the opponent.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, ClanAzule said:

Yeah this is game killer stuff, no idea how these got out of playtesting.  not only are they stupid overpowered for their cost, they create a very negative play experience for the opponent.

In our community, we are looking to give them a quickfix until a real nerf is done by Wyrd, we don´t know if it´s better to put a limit on 2 Rhinos by Company or keep testing to make the aura a TN 1X Sp or Df check. 

 

But yeah, i had several complaints about this unit and we have only had 2 tournaments yet...

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In defense of the rhinos, I was the second player agains @Razhem and he taught me how to do the evil things with them!

Now on a more serious note, I agree with them; now that I know how to do it, if I do that to someone who hasn't suffered it yet it would take the joy of playing away. I know that the British have this artillery attack in a stratagem that deals also a lot of pain, but if I recall correctly it's one use only, but the rhinos can do it every turn. As I told Razhem during and after the match I see this rhino bomb quite overpowered; I think I won't be using it in future events as first of all is not enjoyable for my rival, and second because I can see how tempting it would be to overuse that tactic, I'd rather use other not so effective tactics involving different models. 

I'm all aboard the custom rules @BimVooDoo proposes. 

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey @Chou, the stratagem you are talking about is Artillery Strike. It's a lot weaker than the Rhino though since it can be resisted passing a TN 12 Mv duel, is a 5" pulse instead of 6 and the penetration flip cannot be cheated. Certainly can have it's uses but is nowhere near as powerful.

As for houserules, I'd be happy with TN to resist it as well, though my petty self wouldn't mind deleting the cinnamon rule outright as well...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Adran said:

As a suggested quick fix - dis-allow assets on them. With out the extra 3 health from toughness they ought to die at a much quicker rate.

I actually think this is a good idea to try a simple rebalance without reworking the whole models rulesets.  would love to see this playtested

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, ClanAzule said:

I actually think this is a good idea to try a simple rebalance without reworking the whole models rulesets.  would love to see this playtested

 

Frankly, I don't think that would do much, the alpha strike is going to still happen and it's when they cause the most damage. Don't get me wrong, killing them easier would be welcome to avoid extra explosions, but the most npe part of the package would still be alive and well.

  • Agree 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a GH player with cult as my main opponent, I've been on the receiving end of this one before, numerous times. (Thankfully it's only ever one explosion since we only have 1 rhino and don't proxy). 

My best forms of mitigation are:

1. If you're playing against cult, deploy back into your deployment zone and spread as thin as possible, unless you can stand on a portal close to you first action. Only ever do that with something cheap. By deploying back, it allows you to "waste" their activations, or they will reveal their strat immediately and hopefully only do a little bit of damage.

2. Use Heavy Rains and Tide pools to make portal hopping dangerous (if you're playing Siren). 

3. Always Bring Whelks.

4. Remember the objective. If they use the rhino deep in your DZ, then they can't cover the important mid field markers with their Aura. 

5. If they teleport and move (or if you can move them with Siren and co.) Block line of sight to the Rhino and cover the portal it came out of so it cant escape.

Finally, while it's true that this is a lot of work to deal with a single cheap model, usually their list is designed to augment the rhino bomb in some way (at least in 1 Commander) and they have to pour a lot of actions and resources into the rhino to make it function too. A full stratagem, a Commander activation, Focused Effort, and the asset all have to happen before the explosion. 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a cult player I have to say that the rhinos are completely OP. It does not make sense that I can put two explosions anywhere without any possibility of avoiding them. The solution for me is that the attack resists with a TN 13/14.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information