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Lucid Dream change

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32 minutes ago, Ackfactor said:

Discarding cards from hand has no synergy with a Dreamer-themed crew. I feel like we had this issue earlier in the closed beta as well (with the old discard to interrupt and get a free attack ability).

1) Dreamer wants to hold on to some cards for Protected.

2)Teddy wants a card for Flurry

3) Serena wants a card for Demise

 This means that you want to be very careful about emptying your hand in a Dreamer crew - as discards for those abilities are usually better than removing a random low card from your deck.

This gives me an idea. It's probably a bad one, but I think it has merit.

We know that Dreamer isn't getting his Dream Token summoning back. That was ruled out in the Closed Beta.So, why not re-use them as something else?

:ToS-Fast: Lucid Dream: Choose a non-Joker in your Control hand and remove it from the game. This model gains a Dream Token.

And give most, if not all models with this action, the following ability.

DreamWeaver: Whenever a model within :ToS-Aura:X" is required to discard a card, this model may discard a Dream Token instead.

So, besides the ability bringing to memory that earworm of a song, it means you can eat cards without it affecting the reason you'ld normally want to hold onto them, allow you to build them up over the first turn or two, making it more potent, but compensated by needing range, LOS, and not having the model die.

 

Alternatively, go the Mah Tucket route, and give a small bonus to the model (rams heals one/Shielded+1, tomes draws/replaces itself, mask a 2" push, crow something else), dependent of the suit of the card burnt. Gotta keep the name though. Dreeeeeeeaaaaaam Weaver!

Either works (though I'm partial to the first one), and all models with Lucid Dreams have plenty of space on the front (for the ability version), or the back (for the faux-Trigger version).

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If we want to keep the theme of deck control, we could just have it be something like "reveal the top card of your fate deck, then either draw it or place it on top of your discard pile", reduce how many models have it, and give it a stat and TN.  Alternatively, make the reveal and discard the action with a trigger to let you draw it instead of discarding it

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1 hour ago, Morgan Vening said:

This gives me an idea. It's probably a bad one, but I think it has merit.

We know that Dreamer isn't getting his Dream Token summoning back. That was ruled out in the Closed Beta.So, why not re-use them as something else?

:ToS-Fast: Lucid Dream: Choose a non-Joker in your Control hand and remove it from the game. This model gains a Dream Token.

And give most, if not all models with this action, the following ability.

DreamWeaver: Whenever a model within :ToS-Aura:X" is required to discard a card, this model may discard a Dream Token instead.

So, besides the ability bringing to memory that earworm of a song, it means you can eat cards without it affecting the reason you'ld normally want to hold onto them, allow you to build them up over the first turn or two, making it more potent, but compensated by needing range, LOS, and not having the model die.

 

Alternatively, go the Mah Tucket route, and give a small bonus to the model (rams heals one/Shielded+1, tomes draws/replaces itself, mask a 2" push, crow something else), dependent of the suit of the card burnt. Gotta keep the name though. Dreeeeeeeaaaaaam Weaver!

Either works (though I'm partial to the first one), and all models with Lucid Dreams have plenty of space on the front (for the ability version), or the back (for the faux-Trigger version).

I like this idea. It keeps the uniqueness of the permanent deck manipulation and adds some utility to the crew. 

So people can enjoy both sides of the ability. Removing cards from the deck, while not being abusable by spamming it, still can be a valid plan for Crews that focus on it, while it doesn’t have to be the main thing in other Crews if they can utilize dream tokens. 

Also the tokens would be naturally less effective on small models since their ap inst ob the same Quality Level like the elites ones. And having more elitist models who use the tokens better, would prevent it from being a spam card remove crew. 

But please don’t delete that card remove mechanic. It’s such a unique flavor and really makes the nightmares „otherworldly“. 

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Question about the Lucid Dreaming rework.

 

It says to remove 1 non-joker card and then discard ANY other revealed cards - emphasis mine.  Does ANY mean I need to discard the other 2 OR i could discard 0-2 and put the remaining back.  

 

Interesting change!

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1 minute ago, crimzzen said:

It says to remove 1 non-joker card and then discard ANY other revealed cards - emphasis mine.  Does ANY mean I need to discard the other 2 OR i could discard 0-2 and put the remaining back.

I can see the confusion in the wording, but I'm pretty sure the intent is the cards which are not removed from the game (i.e. the leftover revealed cards) are then discarded.

It is indeed interesting and it is certainly a way to fly through your deck relatively quickly if spammed. Myself I would prefer if "may remove" was added. I can see some salty reactions to flipping the three cards, unluckily flipping all high cards and being forced to remove one from the game.

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6 minutes ago, crimzzen said:

It says to remove 1 non-joker card and then discard ANY other revealed cards - emphasis mine.  Does ANY mean I need to discard the other 2 OR i could discard 0-2 and put the remaining back.  

 

Good catch! It should say all

 

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Since the ability never mentions putting any cards back I don’t find this ambiguous.  You remove one from the game and put the other 2 in the discard pile.

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1 hour ago, nomadicXnightmare said:

It is indeed interesting and it is certainly a way to fly through your deck relatively quickly if spammed. Myself I would prefer if "may remove" was added. I can see some salty reactions to flipping the three cards, unluckily flipping all high cards and being forced to remove one from the game.

I like the aspect of maybe being forced to remove a high card, it makes it a risk/reward.  Especially as you thin your deck.  May keep it from being too powerful.  Have to get it on the table and I think I'll try it out tomorrow or Friday.  

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Pity it's been cleared up as all, I actually liked

look at top 3 cards of your fate deck, remove 1 non joker and either discard the rest or place back on top of your fate deck in any order

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That would be way too strong for stitched togethers - with gamble your life, they would be able to know what card they would flip for it

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1 hour ago, Kaime said:

That would be way too strong for stitched togethers - with gamble your life, they would be able to know what card they would flip for it

See now that's exactly why i think its great that way, the stitched can make a way more informed decision....and remember, you don't know what your opponent will flip.It gives you a decent chance to get the ability off, at least skewing the up side to be in your favor...else why use the ability at all?

 

Also, as it is now, the more cards you remove (and you have to remove 1 every time) the more likely you will come up with a scenario where you will draw 3 good cards and have to get rid of one...which technically weakens your deck again and you've just discarded 2 good cards..... doesn't seem right that an ability that's supposed to add some kind of benefit (and you pay for it, I assume that model cost takes their abilities into account) ends up being a negative.

 

 

Then, personally, I rather see something weaker but with a definite benefit to the model or crew.

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Seeing the new rules of lucid dreams maybe it is fine to put Euripides with the Dreamer. You can see the cards with Intuition or use them with The Old Ways, although I do not think both masters have much synergy.

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Personally I really don't like the new version: too much luck is needed to dig into a 1/2/3 card. There are only 12 of them, so 1 every 4/5 cards. Moreover, I would never use this action,  due to the removal chance of very high cards. I'm usually a conservative player, and don't like these random abilities (as also gamble your life)

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14 hours ago, DumbLuck said:

I like the aspect of maybe being forced to remove a high card, it makes it a risk/reward.  Especially as you thin your deck.  May keep it from being too powerful.  Have to get it on the table and I think I'll try it out tomorrow or Friday.  

I plan to try it out tonight an see how much of a difference it makes. I agree the high risk/reward aspect is intriguing and obviously intentional, but initially I feel the discard is enough of a balancing point wherein always requiring a card to be removed could prove too punishing if you're unlucky enough. I guess we'll see!

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Lucid dreaming seems to be a bit to random or luck based since you have to remove one card from the game. The more cards you remove, the higher the chances to actually remove a good card, hurting yourself. Maybe the ability could be changed to something like that:

:ToS-Fast:Lucid Dream     Reveal the top three cards of your Fate Deck, discard two of them and than, if the last card is a non-Joker, either remove this card from game or draw it. If you draw a card using this ability, give this model a waking token.

Waking    At the start of this models Activation, discard one card from your hand for each waking token on this model.

So the idea was to give the Dreamer more control over the lucid dreaming but for a prize - since you draw a extra card and looses one every turn. So if tried to abuse the player eventually runs out of handcards or have to get rid of his own waking models. Just an idea, maybe this could work.

 

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I tried dreamer last night but only got to play 2 turns. During those turns i removed a 1, a 2, two 3's, a 4, a 5, a 6 and a 7. That's 6 weak cards and 2 low moderates in just 2 turns, and it didn't require any setup at all. Seeing as it gets more risky as you trim, it's quite limiting in regards to abuse but I think it's quite powerful as it is. As i didn't get to play more turns it's hard to say if it's too good or not, but it's far from weak or pointless. I'd really like to see how it works out in later turns before jumping to any conclusions.

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1 hour ago, Hawkoon said:

I tried dreamer last night but only got to play 2 turns. During those turns i removed a 1, a 2, two 3's, a 4, a 5, a 6 and a 7. That's 6 weak cards and 2 low moderates in just 2 turns, and it didn't require any setup at all. Seeing as it gets more risky as you trim, it's quite limiting in regards to abuse but I think it's quite powerful as it is. As i didn't get to play more turns it's hard to say if it's too good or not, but it's far from weak or pointless. I'd really like to see how it works out in later turns before jumping to any conclusions.

I disagree completely with this, no offence intended of course. But i think that for this action, playtesting isn't usefull. It's just a matter of math, and a matter of what people like more, or enjoy more. Do you like taking high risk, hig reward, actions? than yes, this is really nice action. However, if you don't like to take so risky actions (like me), than this action is just useless.

Here some numbers:

- we want ALL 6+ cards to be in our deck.  There are so many strong actions with a TN of 6+ that i would never want to fail, just because i removed a 6+ card.

- i think also that all 4s and 5s should be in the deck, at least Masks. But this is a really personal opinion, because there aren't many actions with so low TNs  ( Serena's heal, Daydream's move, Coppelius push and Coppelius Slow, some others )

- if you want to remove only 1s,2s, and 3s, than you have a pool of 12 out of 54 card. This means, helping us with math, that you draw 1 of these cards every 4, or 5 cards. So the odds of  removing a 1/2/3 card are against you. You must be LUCKY to draw a 1/2/3 card and remove it. Otherwise, you are using an action to remove cards that can help you in the game. This is the real thing. 

And this is not my opinion, it's just math; you can say that the action is funny, CAN be good with help of LUCK, but not that the actions IS good. And when you will draw 3 x 11+ cards, well, you will cry. That's it.

I add another thing: removing cards increases the odds of flipping BJ/RJ. We all know that BJ has way more impact in game, than the RJ. How many turns you end with 5/10 cards left in the deck and the BJ hidden there! So, increasing the odds of flipping BJ is a nice drawback, if i removed bad cards. But what if i removed usefull cards? that's just bad

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I don't quite agree with your maths, in particular your assumptions on how to model the distribution where it's every 4 or 5 cards. You also can't just say the odds are against you on removing a 1, 2, or 3 as out of a full deck of 54 cards is slightly in your favour. The problem is that the odds change depending on the current population in the deck.

It should be modelled as a hypergeometric distribution. If we assume a full 54 card deck. This assumption is obviously not quite true as before you can't ever use this ability even once on a full deck as you will have drawn 6 cards from the deck affecting the remaining probability. Assuming this though allows for a quick way to model the probability.
The chance of drawing at least one of a 1, 2, or 3 is 54%
The chance of drawing at least one card below the base deck average, so at least 1 card between 1 and 6 is 83%
The chance of drawing only face cards and jokers (i.e. having to ditch a face card) is 1.5% - so quite unlikely, though if this did happen I imagine you'd remember it.

The real difficulty though in working out the probability is that its changing every time you flip/draw cards from the deck as it removes those cards from the population. As a quick and extreme example of this, if you had an opening hand of just 1's, 2's, and 3's, then you'd chance of drawing at least one card of a 1, 2 or 3 drops from the 54% above to 33%.

You do have some control over the ability in that you can decide if you want to use it or not. You also have some information available for making this decision in that you can see what's in your discard pile, whats in your hand and what cards you have previously removed from the game. So you know what the remaining population is within your deck. So if you've been on fire flipping and drawing high cards then you'll have a better chance of removing low cards.

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44 minutes ago, Raging_Iggy said:

I disagree completely with this, no offence intended of course. But i think that for this action, playtesting isn't usefull. It's just a matter of math, and a matter of what people like more, or enjoy more. Do you like taking high risk, hig reward, actions? than yes, this is really nice action. However, if you don't like to take so risky actions (like me), than this action is just useless.

Here some numbers:

- we want ALL 6+ cards to be in our deck.  There are so many strong actions with a TN of 6+ that i would never want to fail, just because i removed a 6+ card.

- i think also that all 4s and 5s should be in the deck, at least Masks. But this is a really personal opinion, because there aren't many actions with so low TNs  ( Serena's heal, Daydream's move, Coppelius push and Coppelius Slow, some others )

- if you want to remove only 1s,2s, and 3s, than you have a pool of 12 out of 54 card. This means, helping us with math, that you draw 1 of these cards every 4, or 5 cards. So the odds of  removing a 1/2/3 card are against you. You must be LUCKY to draw a 1/2/3 card and remove it. Otherwise, you are using an action to remove cards that can help you in the game. This is the real thing. 

And this is not my opinion, it's just math; you can say that the action is funny, CAN be good with help of LUCK, but not that the actions IS good. And when you will draw 3 x 11+ cards, well, you will cry. That's it.

I add another thing: removing cards increases the odds of flipping BJ/RJ. We all know that BJ has way more impact in game, than the RJ. How many turns you end with 5/10 cards left in the deck and the BJ hidden there! So, increasing the odds of flipping BJ is a nice drawback, if i removed bad cards. But what if i removed usefull cards? that's just bad

I don't agree with your assumptions.  and I certainly don't think maths back them up.  

I can agree that some players will never take this action because they don't have enough control and it might hurt them more than it helps them. But I think that if you try using the action in a game you might well see an interesting distribution in what is removed. It won't be typical, but if in doing the action 8 times you've only had to remove 2 moderates and 6 weaks, then you might feel a lot better about the action.

Your ideal deck composition will depend on the crew you have built, but I'm not sure that you want  to keep 6s. I'm sure that unless you really need a low suit for a TN, you will be happy getting rid of all cards 5 or lower, if only for the fact that it ups most damage profiles to minimum moderate.  And I believe the neverborn has ways to minimise the effects of the black joker, so its increased likelihood to turn up can be mitigated.

The action is certainly not an action that you do automatically with everything that can every turn. (Probably. I'd have to look at the numbers, but on the whole the deck should be improving each action. It will have occasional down grades, but most of the time it will end the turn as a better deck than it started).

I would say its a low risk action with potential for a high reward. If I remember the average flip on a :-flip:-flipis between 4 and 5.

 

On your view that you want 4-6 in the deck, then yes, you are probably not going to use it. personally, I would eb happy with any card that is below average, and the more I use the ability, the higher that average will be.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Raging_Iggy said:

I disagree completely with this, no offence intended of course. But i think that for this action, playtesting isn't usefull. It's just a matter of math, and a matter of what people like more, or enjoy more. Do you like taking high risk, hig reward, actions? than yes, this is really nice action. However, if you don't like to take so risky actions (like me), than this action is just useless.

Here some numbers:

- we want ALL 6+ cards to be in our deck.  There are so many strong actions with a TN of 6+ that i would never want to fail, just because i removed a 6+ card.

- i think also that all 4s and 5s should be in the deck, at least Masks. But this is a really personal opinion, because there aren't many actions with so low TNs  ( Serena's heal, Daydream's move, Coppelius push and Coppelius Slow, some others )

- if you want to remove only 1s,2s, and 3s, than you have a pool of 12 out of 54 card. This means, helping us with math, that you draw 1 of these cards every 4, or 5 cards. So the odds of  removing a 1/2/3 card are against you. You must be LUCKY to draw a 1/2/3 card and remove it. Otherwise, you are using an action to remove cards that can help you in the game. This is the real thing. 

And this is not my opinion, it's just math; you can say that the action is funny, CAN be good with help of LUCK, but not that the actions IS good. And when you will draw 3 x 11+ cards, well, you will cry. That's it.

I add another thing: removing cards increases the odds of flipping BJ/RJ. We all know that BJ has way more impact in game, than the RJ. How many turns you end with 5/10 cards left in the deck and the BJ hidden there! So, increasing the odds of flipping BJ is a nice drawback, if i removed bad cards. But what if i removed usefull cards? that's just bad

If you have the knowledge and tools to do this math correctly taking into account the complexity of all the variables that @Adran and @Dejavu have pointed out then I'd say go with math, but for most of us playing it out is a more convenient approach. When you oversimplify the math it strays too far from actual play and doesn't really help us that much.

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I played a full 5 turn game with this last night.  In the end I used Lucid Dreams a total of 12 times.  I removed 11 weak cards and one Moderate card.  Turns 4 and 5,  I quit using it as I felt the risk was getting too high.  There was still a noticeable difference in the power of my deck for the last 2 turns, without it being ridiculously out of control.  I had close to half of the weak cards left in the deck (some aces and twos) and I was still losing duels and failing flips but at a noticeably lower rate.  I felt it was strong end game, without being game breaking.  I need to play more games with it, but it felt like it was in a solid place.  

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The difference in usefulness between

Quote

Reveal the top three cards of your Fate Deck, choose one revealed non-Joker remove it from the game, then discard all other revealed cards.

and

Quote

Reveal the top three cards of your Fate Deck, choose up to one revealed non-Joker remove it from the game, then discard all other revealed cards.

is so incredibly stark I don't see the point in arguing over it.

The sentence is borderline non-grammatical anyway.  "choose one revealed non-Joker remove it from the game" is missing punctuation and/or word(s) in the middle.

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