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Gnomezilla

10T Overcosted/Undercosted?

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I’ve seen two outliers bad enough that even a non-Thunders can come by and inquire...

Overcosted: the Obsidian Statue. I understand that it wants to be hit to shed scrap for McCabe and Mei Feng, but Df3?!? Let that never recur again especially not on an expensive model. Again Armor 2 has been paid for by the reduced wounds and doesn’t need to also be paid for with a stat cut to nearly auto-hit levels. The Bodyguard aura is specifically worded to exclude it, it isn’t stealth Df X+1. Give it the durability to stand on the front line and use its melee and hazardous aura and it will be worth its points sometimes.

Undercosted: katashiro. They were fine right up until I got to the line about a free 5” place (and attack from front of card), no TN, no restriction of landing site (both unlike the more expensive yokai angry monkey). But their cost can’t easily rise, they are priced to be summoned at a particular niche. At least Blown by the Wind has to be downgraded to Leap, with associated TN, value to be set for the average 5ss leap model (i.e. necropunk).

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I did try to make an over/Undercosted model thread, but it never really caught on.

I haven't played obsidian statue, but I was interested in doing so during my next game or so. When I do I'll give you some feedback.

The only answer I have for the katashiro, is that they are incredibly fragile (as paper demons should be) Def and WP 4 and 5 wounds mean the fold to everything (pun intended)

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1 hour ago, ADrake said:

I did try to make an over/Undercosted model thread, but it never really caught on.

I haven't played obsidian statue, but I was interested in doing so during my next game or so. When I do I'll give you some feedback.

The only answer I have for the katashiro, is that they are incredibly fragile (as paper demons should be) Def and WP 4 and 5 wounds mean the fold to everything (pun intended)

I agree. The balance for the Katashiro is their lack of durability.... which is appropriate given their cost, etc

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Strongly feel the Katanaka sniper is overpriced. Have a look at him, then have a look at the Friekorps Scout and Rami. Both of those models are cheaper and (IMO) better.

Both have easy access to Stat 6 for their rifles, Rami has better triggers and the scout has better defences with armour and built-in masks on his rifle.

The Katanaka sniper has a better sword, but that means incredibly little when they all have Quick Retreat as a Bonus action so can just shoot twice anyway. It also has assassin, but with Stat 5 is unlikely to kill anything anyway.

Snipers were great in M2E because they were so flexible. If your opponent was bringing From the Shadows snipers, you just brought one of these and deployed engaging it to tie it up (& likely kill it).

My proposal would be to give it back the + to hit on both the sword and rifle to bring it into line with the other snipers (while keeping it unique) and give it Hunting Partner to make it harder for enemies to leave its engagement range or even better bring back Minako's old It's a Matter of Honour that stopped enemies from leaving its engagement completely (so no Quick Retreat). Maybe something like:

It's a Matter of Honour: Enemy's may not leave this model's Engagement range except by the Disengagment Action. 

I also loved their M2E Poisoned Dart bonus action. Could they get that back? 

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56 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Strongly feel the Katanaka sniper is overpriced. Have a look at him, then have a look at the Friekorps Scout and Rami. Both of those models are cheaper and (IMO) better.

Both have easy access to Stat 6 for their rifles, Rami has better triggers and the scout has better defences with armour and built-in masks on his rifle.

The Katanaka sniper has a better sword, but that means incredibly little when they all have Quick Retreat as a Bonus action so can just shoot twice anyway. It also has assassin, but with Stat 5 is unlikely to kill anything anyway.

Snipers were great in M2E because they were so flexible. If your opponent was bringing From the Shadows snipers, you just brought one of these and deployed engaging it to tie it up (& likely kill it).

My proposal would be to give it back the + to hit on both the sword and rifle to bring it into line with the other snipers (while keeping it unique) and give it Hunting Partner to make it harder for enemies to leave its engagement range or even better bring back Minako's old It's a Matter of Honour that stopped enemies from leaving its engagement completely (so no Quick Retreat). Maybe something like:

It's a Matter of Honour: Enemy's may not leave this model's Engagement range except by the Disengagment Action. 

I also loved their M2E Poisoned Dart bonus action. Could they get that back? 

I think it would be enough if they get 6 stat on their rifle. How can you call yourself a "sniper" with 5 Sh??

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Another overcosted model is Kamaitachi. If we look at his actions and abilities we will see a regular totem: insignificant enforcer with crew buff for card draw and weak attack. Yes, his "weaselnado" is interesting, but he needs to be in the pit and due to he is fragile he will die quickly, so no card draw tricks anymore. If you want to keep card draw, than you should keep Kamaitachi out of combat.

Here are the options:
1. lower his price to regular tomem's 2-3 ss
2. give him the innate trigger for weaselnado moving.
3. Remove insignificant.

Also it would be nice if he get the Versatile characteristic. Even for 4 ss it can be a good counterpick against summoners, but for 4+1 there are a lot of other options.

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10 hours ago, Rugh Z'ull said:

I think it would be enough if they get 6 stat on their rifle. How can you call yourself a "sniper" with 5 Sh??

I think it would be too good for a 7ss model with a stat of 6. It ignores Cover, Concealment and Friendly Fire. 

And at the same time I agree that 5 seems too low xD maybe a + (like the M2E one, who was onestly far better for the same price. But compare the old profile and the new one is just a stupid thing to do with every model)

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I'd like the katanaka sniper to be redisigned. Why would he ever flee the fight ? Why make him just a very pale same model as any other sniper? have to say it is currently pretty garbage. Took it sometimes, always got disappointed

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22 minutes ago, SerZaka said:

I think it would be too good for a 7ss model with a stat of 6. It ignores Cover, Concealment and Friendly Fire. 

And at the same time I agree that 5 seems too low xD maybe a + (like the M2E one, who was onestly far better for the same price. But compare the old profile and the new one is just a stupid thing to do with every model)

I mean, the Rifleman in Guild ignores everything except concealment and will often be at stat 7. It only costs 6SS. Rami LaCroix in Bayou costs 6SS and ignores all of that, with better triggers, at stat 6 against everything Sz 2+. The Katanaka Sniper is definitely an outlier compared to the others.

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9 hours ago, Jinn said:

I mean, the Rifleman in Guild ignores everything except concealment and will often be at stat 7. It only costs 6SS. Rami LaCroix in Bayou costs 6SS and ignores all of that, with better triggers, at stat 6 against everything Sz 2+. The Katanaka Sniper is definitely an outlier compared to the others.

I don't know that :D but the model is to beautiful to not be used  , I love it

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So I just had a game with 2 Katanaka snipers and oh my did they do work. They ignore every shooting rule in the game (cover, concealing, friendly fire) and can do so from 24" away, although with from the shadows, you can easily hit their DZ from 14" turn 1. I also took Yamaziko who T1 double walked and popped off Great Teacher to give them + to hit.  You then can't even tie them up by engaging them as they'll just get a free 3" move and double shoot you.

I don't think that they're under-costed anymore (although I did get lucky, almost every shot hit & a nice RJ for dg) however, I still think that Rami, Riflemen and especially the Freikorps scout (essentially the same model, but can easily get stat 6 and has built-in Reposition and armour in exchange for Assassin and Not Worthy trigger, which is super hard to use) are better and they're cheaper! I also think that ranged attacks need to be looked at as basically every game I've played, the melee crew has lost to the shooty one (and we have been using decent amounts of terrain). To that end, I actually think those other three models should probably be upped to 7ss and be perma stat 5 like the snipers. 

For the Snipers, I'd like their niche to be the sniper that can fight back... Currently, there's basically no reason to ever use the sword as you can just quick retreat and shoot twice with the superior rifle. In the Closed beta, he had a Balanced Sword. I think the this and stat 6 for his sword would be good and drop Quick Retreat for a better bonus action. That way you can still deploy to shoot and when people come to get you fight back rather than flee.  You could also build-in the Tomes as Not Worthy is hard enough to use as it is.

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11 minutes ago, Da Git said:

and especially the Freikorps scout (essentially the same model, but can easily get stat 6 and has built-in Reposition and armour in exchange for Assassin and Not Worthy trigger, which is super hard to use) are better and they're cheaper!

The Scout doesn't actually have the Sniper rule, so I don't know if they're directly comparable to the snipers as they likely fill a slightly different role.

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11 hours ago, bedjy said:

I'd like the katanaka sniper to be redisigned. Why would he ever flee the fight ? Why make him just a very pale same model as any other sniper? have to say it is currently pretty garbage. Took it sometimes, always got disappointed

I think I'd give melee 6 stat, then add to Quick Retreat a sh5 1/2/3 rg 6-8 shuriken strike which happens after the move. Change their name to Katanaka Ninja. Or maybe give them the ability to deploy a shadow marker when they use From the Shadows, though that might be too strong.

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59 minutes ago, newsun said:

 

I think I'd give melee 6 stat, then add to Quick Retreat a sh5 1/2/3 rg 6-8 shuriken strike which happens after the move. Change their name to Katanaka Ninja. Or maybe give them the ability to deploy a shadow marker when they use From the Shadows, though that might be too strong.

Interaction with shadow markers would be super cool! It would be awesome if they had the ability to measure shooting into a shadow marker and out of another one to hit enemies behind a wall or something like that. Might be too late in the beta to hope for big changes like that though. 

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7 hours ago, Paradigm said:

Interaction with shadow markers would be super cool! It would be awesome if they had the ability to measure shooting into a shadow marker and out of another one to hit enemies behind a wall or something like that. Might be too late in the beta to hope for big changes like that though. 

Yeah overall, I'd like to see the ninjas use the smoker bombs more across the keyword as it's a cool & thematic. Someone else should have an action called Ninja Vanish which buries them until end of turn which creates a shadow marker, then they can reappear at one.

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46 minutes ago, newsun said:

Please elaborate on why the gun is too good.

Well, the model top to bottom is pretty darn good. 

armor 2 

Gets focused as a zero...

blade rush is pretty darn useful with a 6 inch charge with a pretty good sword attack... yikes

stat 5 with a positive flip built in, does 2/4/6 at 12 inches... with a focus mind you, you're probably getting at least a straight flip on one attack without having to cheat and if you get a ram on that... good night. Besides Seamus who else has a 6 plus damage sever on a ranged attack? Seriously asking because I really don't know off the top of my head and I can't look it up atm, at work.  

Oh and he can heal instead of focus... lets not forget that. 

Hes a damn good model, and in some crews he probably becomes the real MVP. 

I think you reduce the armor to 1, and get rid of the heal then test him out to see. 

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Everything that ignores armor can open a Samurai like a can . 

I used them a lot. They are tanky (if you get lucky with the initiative, I used a lot of high cards for that. For the heal) and this is their main job.

The gatling is pretty scary but it is still a stat 5 and against the cover you are usually against stats 6 and with a - on the damage . And the cover is everywhere, 30% of the battlefield (ok, in this 30% we find even the Severe and Hazardous but the great part is Cover).

Seamus can simply ignore that with a great positioning ability , he is in a totally different level.

I didn't tried Fuhatsu yet but he has the same role of the common Samurai in my opinion , a living turret that takes position and stays there all the game . He is better at distance , but he as a meh HtH combat . And with that WP every attack on that stat is gonna be pretty nesty .

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24 minutes ago, Jinn said:

@IronmanKC81 If you're worried about the Samurai and Fuhatsu, you should see Rusty Alyce in Outcasts :P.

Stat 6, Rg 12:ToS-Range:, 3/4/5 damage ignoring Hard to Wound with an execute trigger and Rapid Fire all for 9SS.

 

Ok, that is scary xD

Anyway the Samurai are like that since the beginning of the closed beta . If they are still there it means that they are balanced , they went through months of testing 

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4 hours ago, SerZaka said:

Ok, that is scary xD

Anyway the Samurai are like that since the beginning of the closed beta . If they are still there it means that they are balanced , they went through months of testing 

The samurai stayed the same, the masters they were hired by have changed. Free focus once per turn is alright; free focus on every shot, that had to go away. 

The other Gatling guns are also on armored yet easy to hit models, though I much prefer the melee weapons of the 10T gunners to the Guild/DMH ones. If I could hire them. I don’t like automatic armor ignoring weapons on principle. :P

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11 hours ago, SerZaka said:

______ are like that since the beginning of the closed beta . If they are still there it means that they are balanced , they went through months of testing

I'd be hesitant to trust that line of thinking.

At least in my Closed group, there were whole factions (never mind individual models) that received far less attention than many others.

As was raised many times, if something hasn't seen significant changes, it might be because it doesn't look quite good enough tot take frequently, but isn't so bad on paper that someone notices and decides to test it to prove that it needs buffs.

In the case of Samurai, I don't really have a frame of reference because I haven't seen a lot of discussion about them - Mei Feng saw a fair bit of testing in [BLUE], but Ten Thunders as a whole were one of the less-played factions, I think.

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I've used the Samurai once and it was a solid model, but not OP imo. I think it's about on par with Fuhatsu & Kore. Having Sh5 balances out his better Ml & Focus trick.

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