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Sebasthos

Colette compromise

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1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

His one hit is going to be a focused attack, so he'll probably be dealing 4-6 points of damage each hit.

Malifaux is dead in my part of the country. I don't think there's been a game since the end of the closed beta. I don't suspect I'll be able to get in another game before the beta ends.  
 

Isn't two attacks better than focus? 😂

Jokes aside, you can still put a focused attack on a negative to damage with a stone so it shouldn't be a total disaster. My immediate reaction to the update was omg Colette is unusable, but after digesting it she is still hyper defensive and going to be a pain to deal with. 

I'm most disappointed about the missing crow on her attack. Wish it had a built in crit strike or something instead so the option for low dmg was there.

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It is true that damage can be mitigated by ss, however, there is a limited amount of ss she can carry, and right now she needs an awful lot of them to do her thing.

I see her being too as-intensive as she is now.

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TBH if you let Joss hit you without a ton of distracted/Stunned etc then you probably misplayed something.

And... I mean, a lot of masters get hurt after a focued attack from Joss hits them, right?

 

I don't know if she didn't loose too much (I wish Mental Trauma was 2 dmg) but I like the general direction she's moving in.

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My suggestion for trying out buffs for her if needed is the following

- Bring back crow, damage 2, or give it a built in mask
- New fade away: After resolving an enemy attack action, discard a card. This model sufers 2 damage instead and is buried. (Meaning that you take the hit and any conditions followed by it, but if you choose to fade away you'll negate the damage and take two points of damage. Worded in such a way to ignore irreducable)
- Showstopper on 3"

This is mostly a knee-jerk reaction to the nerf and thus would require testing

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@Lichedif I don’t misread Channel, which has to specify its bearer inflicts irreducible damage on himself, your rewrite is doing the reducible damage you intended and replacing the irreducible incoming damage altogether. Maybe the thought of doing min2 to Colette instead of min1 will salve opponents’ feelings, but I have my doubts on that.

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8 hours ago, trikk said:

I don't know if she didn't loose too much (I wish Mental Trauma was 2 dmg) but I like the general direction she's moving in.

That affects more models than Colette though. 

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Another good idea would be add to her Distraction Illusion something like: does damage equal to the value of its Distracted Condition  (to a maximum of 3). Or something in that direction.

This can make the Distracted thematic of the whole crew a bit more reliable because a distracted model can avoid it with focus, soul stone or remove it with an Assist action pretty easy. I find it a bit irrelevant sometimes.

In other words playing with her I feel like the only thing Im doing is putting Distracted meanwhile my rival is killing me  xD

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I like that, it fits thematically and is not overpowered. I also had the idea of giving her doves the ability: "While this model is within 2" of a friendly Colette, she may add a single suit of her choice to any duel". Would reduce her resource consumption and give her doves a small push.

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I think a lot of the frustration on Colette is previously, she could not be hit directly. This isn't new, and there's always been things that don't directly target (and more in M3E with Shockwaves). And the worst thing she did of handing out distracted (and stunned in an ever shrinking pulse) was and still is dependent on A) being targeted and choosing to bury, or B) swinging her bonus action sword with a high mask in hand, or a soul stone for it.

I think what will help with her dual-sided frustrations at this point is this:
--Return her escape defense to an ability instead of a damage reduction trigger. BUT don't make it Fade Away. Burying her means the opponent can't continue applying pressure. Instead, make it so when she's targeted she can discard a card to make the attack fail, then place within, say, 6-8", within 2" of a friendly or scheme marker. This means she can poof around with a good illusionist feel, but allows all crews a way to repeatedly attack her hand by attacking her directly, and keeps her most likely near enough friendlies that blasts can come after her. This gives the Colette player the choice of using their whole hand to keep Colette untouched, or allow their crew to be effective by having cards to cheat.


--With this, Showstopper will need to change. I'd say allow her to pick one model in 6" to gain Distracted +1 with every place, as adding a TN for everyone in the current aura will really slow the game down with how often that could happen.


--Likewise, update her Saber to place the target within the same range, or have a trigger for Colette to place herself.


--Remove Serene Countenance. It adds insult to injury when targeting her.

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She shouldn’t be able to just negate the attack. Too much of the game is bound up in dmg or conditions. Making her essentially immune to both especially considering your proposed low cost of a single card, needing to still get through serene countenance, and then getting to have a large move after the ability, and it not being able to shut it down due to it jo longer being a trigger, doesn’t solve the problems from before.

If you want her to be basically untargetable that’s fine, but she has to then have minimal impact on the board, which isn’t something I think will fly with a master. An attack that buried the target and gets a massive reposition, and does dmg isn’t just handing out distracted.

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3 hours ago, Sebasthos said:

I like that, it fits thematically and is not overpowered. I also had the idea of giving her doves the ability: "While this model is within 2" of a friendly Colette, she may add a single suit of her choice to any duel". Would reduce her resource consumption and give her doves a small push.

It would also make Colette very vulnerable to blasts. I usually keep the Doves and their lows stats far away from Colette.

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1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

She shouldn’t be able to just negate the attack. Too much of the game is bound up in dmg or conditions. Making her essentially immune to both especially considering your proposed low cost of a single card, needing to still get through serene countenance, and then getting to have a large move after the ability, and it not being able to shut it down due to it jo longer being a trigger, doesn’t solve the problems from before.

If you want her to be basically untargetable that’s fine, but she has to then have minimal impact on the board, which isn’t something I think will fly with a master. An attack that buried the target and gets a massive reposition, and does dmg isn’t just handing out distracted.

First off, I also said remove Serene Countenance, and have been saying it needs  to go for a while. Colette wants to he attacked so she can do the extra bury/movement/distracted/however it ends up. She plays the game sideways, always has. Likewise, her opponents have to come at her a bit sideways as well. Turns out if you hit an illusion you find out it's just smoke and mirrors. And so, when you say she's negating the attack for a card, I say in turn that because she's used up that resource of a card *but* is now on the table instead of buried, you can continue to attack her and drain more cards. This means she may not *want* to bounce away again as it will make her crew less effective that turn, or she may want to stay in the area she is instead of bouncing away.

While killing Colette has been possible, negating (or very close to it) attacks at the expense of resources other than wounds has always been her foundation, a very cool way of showing you're hitting her illusions instead of her. If you want to damage her, fine, to indirect damage like always, there's more versions of it now, even. But the best ways to deal with her, really are to force her to have bad options and choices of position, spending resources, and assisting her crew.

As far as her damage output, I agree with you, that's not really her thing, which is why I like that her non-bonus attack isn't damage based, even with the mental trauma trigger built in it offered the target a choice: do you think this illusion is real or not? If you think it's an illusion, discard a card and just be dazzled by it. If not, keep standing still and realize it is, as you get hit for non-illusiory damage.

The issue with her burying is it protects for the entire turn too many resources the opponent could otherwise capitalize on, placing allows her to be targeted again and again, or be within blast range of another target.

I see her as similar to Jack Daw in than her wounds aren't really what you want to attack--can't really reduce hers as much though, because there ARE damages that get around her defensive tech, unlike Jack's. But weight of fire and forcing the Colette player to make choices with equally bad options is the way to go. 

Which is all why she needs to get rid or serene countenace, so *more regular attacks can go at her, and even if they don't do damage, mean something to the game at large. Can we agree on that much, at least?

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Not really. Because you keep trying to make her mechanics be benefited by the enemy attacking her, while at the same time not allowing any attack to really significantly cost her anything. An opponent who is familiar woth the rules is never going to attack her at all unless there is a better change for them to actually accomplish something more for them than for her. In your suggestions an attack against her costs her a card. Maybe. And in addition to costing her a card she gets to completely disregard the attack, ignore any dmg, ignore any conditions, ignore any beneficial triggers the enemy might have, ignore forced movement, essentially ignore a large portion of the game, and at the same time get a benefit from it in repositioning and essentially stealing an action from the opponent, while at the same time saying that the attacks that still deal with other models are somehow specifically deadly to her.

I don’t have an issue even if the old fade away comes back. I care about her overall balance of impact, survivability, and mobility. Pick 2. And to be clear I like Colette. After Seamus, Molly, and Pandora she’s probably my favorite master. I’d like to be able to play her. I’d like her to be powerful. But I’d also not want her to go back to where she and Pandora were in 1e were they were stupid overpowered, practically untouchable, and ignored large portions of the rules of the game.

Id rather she get a better version of protect where she switches position with a friendly performer, and the other performer takes the full impact of the hit. Clever play and positioning or bad play on Colette’s part would leave her suffering, but the opponent would still get rewarded for interacting with her crew.

Control masters are just really hard to balance.

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15 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Not really. Because you keep trying to make her mechanics be benefited by the enemy attacking her, while at the same time not allowing any attack to really significantly cost her anything. An opponent who is familiar woth the rules is never going to attack her at all unless there is a better change for them to actually accomplish something more for them than for her. In your suggestions an attack against her costs her a card. Maybe. And in addition to costing her a card she gets to completely disregard the attack, ignore any dmg, ignore any conditions, ignore any beneficial triggers the enemy might have, ignore forced movement, essentially ignore a large portion of the game, and at the same time get a benefit from it in repositioning and essentially stealing an action from the opponent, while at the same time saying that the attacks that still deal with other models are somehow specifically deadly to her.

I don’t have an issue even if the old fade away comes back. I care about her overall balance of impact, survivability, and mobility. Pick 2. And to be clear I like Colette. After Seamus, Molly, and Pandora she’s probably my favorite master. I’d like to be able to play her. I’d like her to be powerful. But I’d also not want her to go back to where she and Pandora were in 1e were they were stupid overpowered, practically untouchable, and ignored large portions of the rules of the game.

Id rather she get a better version of protect where she switches position with a friendly performer, and the other performer takes the full impact of the hit. Clever play and positioning or bad play on Colette’s part would leave her suffering, but the opponent would still get rewarded for interacting with her crew.

Control masters are just really hard to balance.

Very much agreed that control masters are hard to balance! And thank you for clarifying that you like Colette. I definitely also don't want her to be like 1e, but what about 2e (before wave 4-5 when irreduceable damage ate her left right and center)? Without meaning to, the suggestions I made very long check borrowed from her design there, and while it was definitely frustrating for opponent's to play against the first time (though once I figured out her weaknesses I'd generally just tell them what they wanted to do instead of attacking her), once they attacked her crew instead if her, it was clear she couldn't do everything by herself, even if she survived.

Albeit, in this edition, they're trying to g to make the Performer crew function around distracted, which is my bone to pick - it's not beneficial enough to her squishy crew, when so many medium damage models can focus to ignore the negative and still get the plus flip to damage, cheat high and kill ether of her primary minions with one severe attack. That underlying issue is leading to Colette and the Duet being the focus of the crew because they have to carry the rest of them since Distracted doesn't do enough for the lesser models, and currently Colette unburying is by far the best way to hand it out (which I also don't like. Agreed that her ignoring the attack should not allow her to be more effective, but since that's the aim the designers currently have, I tried to offer a less over the top alternative).

Personally, since mannequins have Take the Hit, give them armor 2, since all they do it that and a little healing. It would mean they protect their Showgirls, use more cards, which feeds into the theme of making a decision between wounds and cards, and further affects Colette's placement/fade away decisions.

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