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trikk

Lady Justice issue

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5 hours ago, Michael Curran said:

I have never, ever even come close to the ‘potential’ 7 attacks you guys keep tossing out there as a counter to her stat 7.  Never

 

...and, even if the opponent is so careless to group important miniatures near Lady J, the amount of resources to successfully deliver these 7 attacks is obscene. Being a "win-or-lose-the-encounter" situation could justify trying the maneuver, but then can't wait to see the faces of new players and former returning M2E players losing a game thanks to this.😐

 

 Anyway, at this point of the Beta nothing will significantly change with Lady J. We can only hope about a future alternative card with stat 7 and without Quick Reflexes, Decay and all the potential circumstantial OPness.

 

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2 hours ago, Lord J said:

 

...and, even if the opponent is so careless to group important miniatures near Lady J, the amount of resources to successfully deliver these 7 attacks is obscene. Being a "win-or-lose-the-encounter" situation could justify trying the maneuver, but then can't wait to see the faces of new players and former returning M2E players losing a game thanks to this.😐

 

 Anyway, at this point of the Beta nothing will significantly change with Lady J. We can only hope about a future alternative card with stat 7 and without Quick Reflexes, Decay and all the potential circumstantial OPness.

 

And I hope it arrives soon, I'm sorry to return J to the shelving again.

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1 hour ago, 4thstringer said:

Damn y'all are dramatic as hell..

I'm far from declaring what will hit the shelf. I think until the meta creates it's even hard to figure out the optimal model count.  I don't think Stat 6/7 is what will make or break Justice as a competitive pick. 

 

I do however think that Lucius is, art least for me, the top master in Guild right now.

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1 minute ago, trikk said:

I'm far from declaring what will hit the shelf. I think until the meta creates it's even hard to figure out the optimal model count.  I don't think Stat 6/7 is what will make or break Justice as a competitive pick. 

 

I do however think that Lucius is, art least for me, the top master in Guild right now.

That is wild to me.  He's solely on the midtier to me, so there is clearly a lot of exploring still to do.

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11 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

That is wild to me.  He's solely on the midtier to me, so there is clearly a lot of exploring still to do.

He's the most versatile master. He has very good card draw, you don't know if he'll shoot/fight/scheme based on the master because if you take one model with a gun, you suddenly have 3 models with that gun. It's really hard to counter him.

Of course I didn't play versus everyone, but out of the 7 masters I played I think he looks as the most versatile one in Guild.

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I agree. I think the innate flexibility during games with dopple and 46 being able to switch roles from snipers to hard-hitting melee monsters mid-game also makes Lucius' crew inherently powerful.

I have so far played against Dreamer, Molly and Sonnia, and he has blown them all of the board. He is easily the best Guild masters right now IMO. 

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5 minutes ago, Dark Reaper said:

I agree. I think the innate flexibility during games with dopple and 46 being able to switch roles from snipers to hard-hitting melee monsters mid-game also makes Lucius' crew inherently powerful.

I have so far played against Dreamer, Molly and Sonnia, and he has blown them all of the board. He is easily the best Guild masters right now IMO. 

I think Sonnia might stand a chance because they are all low Df and you can snipe the Stealth models with blasts ;)

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I don't get it.

Lady J is better than the First mate. She has a much greater damage output  but with less mobility options.

Minimum 3 with triggers for extra attacks is much better than minimum 2 with built in critical strike and the option for different triggers for extra attacks. So while the both have the chance to get 7 attacks (And its easier for the First mate) one of them will be doing those 7 attacks with a minimum 3 and a decent chance of them being :+flipto damage, the other will be doing them at minimum 2. So for a similar out lay of resources Justice will probably do more damage in her 4 attacks than the First mate would do in 7.

She has less potential card draw but plenty on the card to make up for it (and when ever I used first mate, granted in a Zipp crew, my opponent  just didn't drop scheme markers for him to use. he either picked non scheme marker schemes, or waited until the very last few activations before they would score to drop the markers in a place where the first mate couldn't get to).

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

I don't get it.

Lady J is better than the First mate. She has a much greater damage output  but with less mobility options.

Minimum 3 with triggers for extra attacks is much better than minimum 2 with built in critical strike and the option for different triggers for extra attacks. So while the both have the chance to get 7 attacks (And its easier for the First mate) one of them will be doing those 7 attacks with a minimum 3 and a decent chance of them being :+flipto damage, the other will be doing them at minimum 2. So for a similar out lay of resources Justice will probably do more damage in her 4 attacks than the First mate would do in 7.

She has less potential card draw but plenty on the card to make up for it (and when ever I used first mate, granted in a Zipp crew, my opponent  just didn't drop scheme markers for him to use. he either picked non scheme marker schemes, or waited until the very last few activations before they would score to drop the markers in a place where the first mate couldn't get to).

He also has a better leap, stealth and butterfly jump, draws cards and he's a 9SS model.

Justice is better offensively and has more Wds, but I wouldn't call it a "Master vs 9SS henchman" better. If First Mate got a Master treatment and 12 Wds and Wp6 I'd honestly consider him better.

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8 minutes ago, trikk said:

He also has a better leap, stealth and butterfly jump, draws cards and he's a 9SS model.

Justice is better offensively and has more Wds, but I wouldn't call it a "Master vs 9SS henchman" better. If First Mate got a Master treatment and 12 Wds and Wp6 I'd honestly consider him better.

Then you are really underestimating the difference in damage that they can each put out.

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6 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

Then you are really underestimating the difference in damage that they can each put out.

It's not all about damage. Stealth  + Butterfly jump are HUGE defensive tools that waste so much AP. I'd really gladly take it for a 3 dmg per turn reduction.

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26 minutes ago, trikk said:

He also has a better leap, stealth and butterfly jump, draws cards and he's a 9SS model.

Justice is better offensively and has more Wds, but I wouldn't call it a "Master vs 9SS henchman" better. If First Mate got a Master treatment and 12 Wds and Wp6 I'd honestly consider him better.

As I said, he is more mobile. There are a lot of people out there who don't like their master being a glorified Scheme runner (reading threads about Seamus and Tara). And that's sort of how I view First mate at the moment. His is an apex anti schemer, and a good schemer. His leap is better, but barely. Needing a suited 3 compared to a suited 5 to reach a TN is rarely going to matter.  He is a pain to deal with if he is using his mobility, and his presence affects your choice of schemes, but if I face an infamous crew I don't expect any scheme markers to last more than 1 or 2 activations anyway so you just don't use them and then he doesn't draw cards.

He would need quite a bit to bump him up to master level power I think. He is largely going to spend AP on either the attack or Interact. His  defenses are good, but I expect him to eat a lot of focused charges if he is around in the middle of a fight, because if you're only going to get 1 swing, make it a good one. 

Honestly, I see him as a decent 9 ss model, when you want the mobility, but in no way does he compare to Justice

I may well have my mind blinkers on because for much of the beta I was comparing the first mate to the midnight stalker, and laughing at how much worse the first mate was. He no longer looks worse than the stalker, and I've not played with him for several months, but I just don't see him anywhere near Justice in power level, or even intended to do the same role.

I also have always rated Justices defensive trigger higher than lots of other people, since my main opponent largely played her in 1st edition (when it was harder to get off), and would regularly manage to trigger it against my crew because he used his hand in a way to support it. To me it deters a lot of attacks against her just by existing on the card.

 

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54 minutes ago, Adran said:

As I said, he is more mobile. There are a lot of people out there who don't like their master being a glorified Scheme runner (reading threads about Seamus and Tara). And that's sort of how I view First mate at the moment. His is an apex anti schemer, and a good schemer. His leap is better, but barely. Needing a suited 3 compared to a suited 5 to reach a TN is rarely going to matter.  He is a pain to deal with if he is using his mobility, and his presence affects your choice of schemes, but if I face an infamous crew I don't expect any scheme markers to last more than 1 or 2 activations anyway so you just don't use them and then he doesn't draw cards.

He would need quite a bit to bump him up to master level power I think. He is largely going to spend AP on either the attack or Interact. His  defenses are good, but I expect him to eat a lot of focused charges if he is around in the middle of a fight, because if you're only going to get 1 swing, make it a good one. 

Honestly, I see him as a decent 9 ss model, when you want the mobility, but in no way does he compare to Justice

I may well have my mind blinkers on because for much of the beta I was comparing the first mate to the midnight stalker, and laughing at how much worse the first mate was. He no longer looks worse than the stalker, and I've not played with him for several months, but I just don't see him anywhere near Justice in power level, or even intended to do the same role.

I also have always rated Justices defensive trigger higher than lots of other people, since my main opponent largely played her in 1st edition (when it was harder to get off), and would regularly manage to trigger it against my crew because he used his hand in a way to support it. To me it deters a lot of attacks against her just by existing on the card.

I'll start by saying, that I think the Mate is a strong 9SS model but I don't think he's gamebreaking too-good. I do however feel that if 9SS Henchman has better mobility, similar or better defenses (discounting Wds) and a slightly worse damage output (he's still effectively a Stat 6, min 3 model) , then the master probably needs a bump.

Give her 14 Wds or Df6 or Stat 7 or anything else because right now she's basically a 3AP Henchman for 16SS

 

The defensive trigger never really prevented anybody from attacking her (when she had Df7!) and with Df5 you won't stone for it because most 5SS models have a Stat 5 attack and enemies usually can take the occasional 3 dmg. 

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Nah stat 7 is too cool - no faction has it especially ShenLong suffers... 6 stat... +2 for chi... he won't hit...

***sarcasm 
To my mind most guild stats were made for old injury... after it changed everything seems a bit broken... But it might be only my opinion...

 

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10 hours ago, Adran said:

As I said, he is more mobile. There are a lot of people out there who don't like their master being a glorified Scheme runner (reading threads about Seamus and Tara). And that's sort of how I view First mate at the moment. His is an apex anti schemer, and a good schemer. His leap is better, but barely. Needing a suited 3 compared to a suited 5 to reach a TN is rarely going to matter.  He is a pain to deal with if he is using his mobility, and his presence affects your choice of schemes, but if I face an infamous crew I don't expect any scheme markers to last more than 1 or 2 activations anyway so you just don't use them and then he doesn't draw cards.

He would need quite a bit to bump him up to master level power I think. He is largely going to spend AP on either the attack or Interact. His  defenses are good, but I expect him to eat a lot of focused charges if he is around in the middle of a fight, because if you're only going to get 1 swing, make it a good one. 

Honestly, I see him as a decent 9 ss model, when you want the mobility, but in no way does he compare to Justice

I may well have my mind blinkers on because for much of the beta I was comparing the first mate to the midnight stalker, and laughing at how much worse the first mate was. He no longer looks worse than the stalker, and I've not played with him for several months, but I just don't see him anywhere near Justice in power level, or even intended to do the same role.

I also have always rated Justices defensive trigger higher than lots of other people, since my main opponent largely played her in 1st edition (when it was harder to get off), and would regularly manage to trigger it against my crew because he used his hand in a way to support it. To me it deters a lot of attacks against her just by existing on the card.

 

Is Lady J better? Yes. Is she enough better to justify being 16ss(17ss to hire out)/master while the first mate is 9ss (10ss to hire out)? No. The comparison is not flattering.

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