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Outplayed

Yasunori

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57 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You do realize that he has the needed suit for his trigger so long as his opponent has more than 1 card in hand, right? How is that unreliable?

Because it does nothing to blasts, shockwaves, pulses, conditions or anything else that doesn't target the Yasunori directly in an opposed df/mv duel. Resistance triggers are only used in opposed duels. It is also vulnerable to resistance ignoring attacks/abilities, Counterspell, and to stunned. I'm mainly saying that it is a less consistent source of damage reduction than Armour or Incorporeal is.

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4 hours ago, Jinn said:

Because it does nothing to blasts, shockwaves, pulses, conditions or anything else that doesn't target the Yasunori directly in an opposed df/mv duel. Resistance triggers are only used in opposed duels. It is also vulnerable to resistance ignoring attacks/abilities, Counterspell, and to stunned. I'm mainly saying that it is a less consistent source of damage reduction than Armour or Incorporeal is.

No offense, but this argument must have "impossible to kill" ;) cause I've seen it multiple times over the forum now, and whenever a model has a defensive mechanic that's reliant on a trigger or being targeted or something, this argument arises (demise Eternal ;) )... like every other model in the game isn't affected by blast and so on. They are, and it is not like blast is a fix all, that all models can do, or access and pretty basic play can counter blast pretty easily as well.

Yes stunned counters trigger and a few other things bypass them, but that's how they work, that doesn't make a trigger bad or a model balanced per se...

 

I would rather talk about the model in general, cause I do not understand this thread at all. I would think 10t players would avoid bringing up Yasunori, cause I think he is bonkers. Compared to other riders (which I would think is fair considering his role, function, cost and so on), I think yasunori breaks the bank... My argument being, that to rely on your opponent having 2 or more cards in hand is way way better than to rely on the tokens the other riders get. Yes the other rider can (if they save up) later in the game ignore an enormous hit, but Yas has a way more constant way of reducing damage for free. Furthermore, early in the turn, his damagereduction will be through the roof at no cost at all (damage reduction of 2-4 is massive (2-3 from chasing advantage and 1 unreliable from the card)). Whereas any other rider will sink his own utility down a hole IF he needs to defend against dangerous damage. Yes the opponent can dump his hand, but in Malifaux that is exceedingly dangerous, and not something to recommend, especially not early in the turn. So yeah, you can attack him with WP based attacks, but for some reason he gets one more WP than the other riders... why? is he more squishy than the others? no, infact his trigger even works for MV as well as def, where the other riders get it only on def.

 

So yeah, Yas' :ToS-Fast: might not be on the same level as the other riders, but considering his easy access to 4 attacks per turn and he even has stat 6 with a :+flip(which the other rider don't have either), I think that's more than fair.

 

My suggestion would be to put Yas in line with the other riders, like give him fate tokens like them, remove chasing advantage and revel in chaos, give him a :ToS-Fast: like and on level with the other riders, reduce his WP to six like the others, give him ruthless (though god knows 10T don't need more of these to compare), unyielding (sure why not) and remove his :+flipon melee like the others... that's how much you need to do to bring him in line with the other riders... so either Yasunori is on another tier by himself way above the others, or this suggestion shouldn't really meet much resistance. 

 

this is in no way meant offensively, but I am just truly surprised, that Yasunori can exist on this level and be thought the least bit underwhelming...

 

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On 1/24/2019 at 10:07 PM, newsun said:

Chasing Advantage also seems kinda crap compared to the other riders with Chasing Fate.

I truly hope the designers think the same and change it to Chasing Fate ;)

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6 hours ago, Caspergad said:

No offense, but this argument must have "impossible to kill" ;) cause I've seen it multiple times over the forum now, and whenever a model has a defensive mechanic that's reliant on a trigger or being targeted or something, this argument arises (demise Eternal ;) )... like every other model in the game isn't affected by blast and so on. They are, and it is not like blast is a fix all, that all models can do, or access and pretty basic play can counter blast pretty easily as well.

Models with Armour actually do resist blasts more than the average model, so not every model in the game is affected equally by blasts. They are also more resistant to burning/poison, pulses, shockwaves, and almost everything else that bypasses defences like resistance triggers and does damage. So, when I say that the Yasunori's defences are unreliable compared to Armour I mean that there are more common ways around the Yas's damage reduction than there are around armour, and a lot of those ways around that damage reduction are going to come up incidentally due to how common that indirect damage is.

6 hours ago, Caspergad said:

My argument being, that to rely on your opponent having 2 or more cards in hand is way way better than to rely on the tokens the other riders get.

I've already said in this thread that the Yasunori's chasing fate mechanic may put him over the edge defensively when compared to the other riders due to the more consistent suits. He definitely fills a different role than the other riders though. Comparing them to the Yasunori you can see that Ride with Me and the extra +1 Mv makes them much better schemers than the Yasunori (barring cheesy flight things in niche situations). Additionally, that Revel in X bonus action can definitely change the outcome of games. The trade off is that the Yasunori is a more consistent damage dealer, with plus flips and almost always in-built onslaught. I'd still expect the riders with min 3 and a damaging bonus action to be better at both scheming and damage against models that have damage reduction like Armour or Incorporeal.

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7 hours ago, Caspergad said:

I truly hope the designers think the same and change it to Chasing Fate ;)

Lol it’s way better than chasing fate. 

Way more reliable and manageable.

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35 minutes ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Lol it’s way better than chasing fate. 

Way more reliable and manageable.

well, then everybody can be made happy very easily right :D I'd love to see him pay that token every time he wants his onslaught and when I attack him... tokens he can run out of...

 

45 minutes ago, Jinn said:

I've already said in this thread that the Yasunori's chasing fate mechanic may put him over the edge defensively when compared to the other riders due to the more consistent suits. He definitely fills a different role than the other riders though. Comparing them to the Yasunori you can see that Ride with Me and the extra +1 Mv makes them much better schemers than the Yasunori (barring cheesy flight things in niche situations). Additionally, that Revel in X bonus action can definitely change the outcome of games. The trade off is that the Yasunori is a more consistent damage dealer, with plus flips and almost always in-built onslaught. I'd still expect the riders with min 3 and a damaging bonus action to be better at both scheming and damage against models that have damage reduction like Armour or Incorporeal.

we'll agree to disagree on the movement part, as flight is better sometimes and unimpeded non-flight with one more inch mv is better in others - I think they're comparable, and it sounds like you don't :)

I might not have been too clear then, when I said that the other riders have better :ToS-Fast: than Yas, cause I think they do, but just remember that those actions excel when you're spending alot of tokens, and your opponent can counter that by attacking the rider and force token usage (and it won't happen early in the game either, where Yas come out swinging at full effiency turn one)... now would I prefer Yas getting fate tokens instead of chasing advantage, yes as I said, I think it would better all around, and then he should probably have a more interesting :ToS-Fast: as well like the others to use alot of tokens on (though please no 3rd attack (which would be 6th attack) as he has more than enough of those...

 

50 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Models with Armour actually do resist blasts more than the average model, so not every model in the game is affected equally by blasts. They are also more resistant to burning/poison, pulses, shockwaves, and almost everything else that bypasses defences like resistance triggers and does damage. So, when I say that the Yasunori's defences are unreliable compared to Armour I mean that there are more common ways around the Yas's damage reduction than there are around armour, and a lot of those ways around that damage reduction are going to come up incidentally due to how common that indirect damage is.

might have missed some context then, but sure, for the sake of argument: would I rather have a defensive trigger generally reducing damage like yas and be "vulnerable" to indirect damage than 1 armour or incorporeal, yes I would, cause my argument is that they're much rarer and more difficult to set upp than straight up attacks AND Yas' trigger will work on alot of shock waves as he has it on both DF and MV...! so in total, I disagree :) 

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1 minute ago, Caspergad said:

Yas' trigger will work on alot of shock waves as he has it on both DF and MV...! so in total, I disagree :) 

Again, resistance triggers don't work on simple duels, only opposed.

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8 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Again, resistance triggers don't work on simple duels, only opposed.

fair, missed that. even baring that, it still think it's better to just straight up have a defensive trigger like him.

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On 2/5/2019 at 3:10 AM, Caspergad said:

My argument being, that to rely on your opponent having 2 or more cards in hand is way way better than to rely on the tokens the other riders get. Yes the other rider can (if they save up) later in the game ignore an enormous hit, but Yas has a way more constant way of reducing damage for free. Furthermore, early in the turn, his damagereduction will be through the roof at no cost at all (damage reduction of 2-4 is massive (2-3 from chasing advantage and 1 unreliable from the card)). Whereas any other rider will sink his own utility down a hole IF he needs to defend against dangerous damage.

 

Tokens are MY resource, cards in my opponents hands are THEIR resource.  When my opponent has control over a resource I need in order to capitalize on that effect, I have necessarily less agency in this interaction.  That dictates when Yas activates, which dictates Yas is in harms way more often - earlier in the turn, because he has to be for us to get effect.  Or, he's waiting till later in the turn where he is chasing less advantage.  The ability is a double-edged sword, and ultimately it puts too much decision-making in the hands of my opponent.  If I have tokens that are less effective, but I accumulate them and spend them when and where I see fit - if I am then able to activate my rider whenever I need to not early when I am most predictably able to get the most out of him... I would take that trade in a heartbeat.

 

My opponents find Yasunori's weakness and make sure he is not played to full effectiveness - this is much easier to malign than a rider.  They hire a model and put it on the table and get value out of it; I hire a model, put it on the table, and so long as my opponent doesn't do certain things I get value out of it... I dont like that, so I wont prefer it.

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14 minutes ago, Outplayed said:

 

Tokens are MY resource, cards in my opponents hands are THEIR resource.  When my opponent has control over a resource I need in order to capitalize on that effect, I have necessarily less agency in this interaction.  That dictates when Yas activates, which dictates Yas is in harms way more often - earlier in the turn, because he has to be for us to get effect.  Or, he's waiting till later in the turn where he is chasing less advantage.  The ability is a double-edged sword, and ultimately it puts too much decision-making in the hands of my opponent.  If I have tokens that are less effective, but I accumulate them and spend them when and where I see fit - if I am then able to activate my rider whenever I need to not early when I am most predictably able to get the most out of him... I would take that trade in a heartbeat.

 

My opponents find Yasunori's weakness and make sure he is not played to full effectiveness - this is much easier to malign than a rider.  They hire a model and put it on the table and get value out of it; I hire a model, put it on the table, and so long as my opponent doesn't do certain things I get value out of it... I dont like that, so I wont prefer it.

i disagree, give my dead rider chasing advantage any day of the week over chasing fate, and I'm being sincere, when I say, I would much rather they streamlined the horsemen to all be the same, and Yas should be balanced on that same scale. I'd love for yasunori to actually have to use a ressource to be able to onslaught for certain twice... If your opponent really dumps his hand, it's limited how much he's really gonna do, and then Yas will be more than fine with his very good stats and hard to wound...

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2 hours ago, Outplayed said:

 

Tokens are MY resource, cards in my opponents hands are THEIR resource.  When my opponent has control over a resource I need in order to capitalize on that effect, I have necessarily less agency in this interaction.  That dictates when Yas activates, which dictates Yas is in harms way more often - earlier in the turn, because he has to be for us to get effect.  Or, he's waiting till later in the turn where he is chasing less advantage.  The ability is a double-edged sword, and ultimately it puts too much decision-making in the hands of my opponent.  If I have tokens that are less effective, but I accumulate them and spend them when and where I see fit - if I am then able to activate my rider whenever I need to not early when I am most predictably able to get the most out of him... I would take that trade in a heartbeat.

 

My opponents find Yasunori's weakness and make sure he is not played to full effectiveness - this is much easier to malign than a rider.  They hire a model and put it on the table and get value out of it; I hire a model, put it on the table, and so long as my opponent doesn't do certain things I get value out of it... I dont like that, so I wont prefer it.

This was my original thought though you can suffer damage to make your attacks trigger with his bonus action so you do have some control even late in the turn.

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I dont understand why yasunori costa its still 10ss And rider's are now 11ss. Df6 Wp7, HTW, reduce damage, 4 attacks, + flip attacks, 9w, mv 6. Seriusly. Then you say about Colette. I Think he is still a bit over

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11 hours ago, stevenlance said:

I dont understand why yasunori costa its still 10ss And rider's are now 11ss. Df6 Wp7, HTW, reduce damage, 4 attacks, + flip attacks, 9w, mv 6. Seriusly. Then you say about Colette. I Think he is still a bit over

He fills a very different role to the other riders (he isn't technically a rider) with regards to what he actually brings to a list. Every other rider has Ride with Me and another bonus action with incredibly powerful late game effects, the Yasunori has consistent tankiness and damage. Ride with Me is an incredibly powerful bonus action, not only do you get an extra 5" of movement (which can get you out of an engagement) but you give another model 5-6"+ of movement. This bonus action alone is probably going to score you at least a VP per game in my experience.

If the Yasunori were to be nerfed to 11SS it would likely be for very different reasons than why the riders were nerfed. I do think the riders could use an extra wound at 11SS though.

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1 hour ago, Jinn said:

He fills a very different role to the other riders (he isn't technically a rider) with regards to what he actually brings to a list. Every other rider has Ride with Me and another bonus action with incredibly powerful late game effects, the Yasunori has consistent tankiness and damage. Ride with Me is an incredibly powerful bonus action, not only do you get an extra 5" of movement (which can get you out of an engagement) but you give another model 5-6"+ of movement. This bonus action alone is probably going to score you at least a VP per game in my experience.

If the Yasunori were to be nerfed to 11SS it would likely be for very different reasons than why the riders were nerfed. I do think the riders could use an extra wound at 11SS though.

Agree with all of the above, especially giving the 4 actual riders (Yas is not a rider @Morgan Vening!) an extra wound.

Ride with me is such an amazing ability!

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Put Yas on the table last night against Lucius - a man who has 7 cards and can keep drawing all game.

 

I would be able to make them discard randomly, I would punish my opponent for having a hand?

 

A bonus action that does damage to my beater for moderate impact and both benefit and control to my opponent, no - I'm sorry.  It also needs a TN and a suit, on an enforcer... I dont understand why this even has a place on the card.  I haven't seen anybody offer a convincing scenario in which this ability is played to reasonable effect.  This bonus action seems effectively useless, I would almost rather see empty space on a card so that I dont feel this ability is actually costed against his 10SS.

 

If I can wantonly take damage on the model that should be buried in my enemy lines, I am winning already - is this not a win-more, or 1/100 use case 'it-might-seem-preferable-because-staggered-isn't-that-great-either ability'?

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13 hours ago, Outplayed said:

Put Yas on the table last night against Lucius - a man who has 7 cards and can keep drawing all game.

 

I would be able to make them discard randomly, I would punish my opponent for having a hand?

 

A bonus action that does damage to my beater for moderate impact and both benefit and control to my opponent, no - I'm sorry.  It also needs a TN and a suit, on an enforcer... I dont understand why this even has a place on the card.  I haven't seen anybody offer a convincing scenario in which this ability is played to reasonable effect.  This bonus action seems effectively useless, I would almost rather see empty space on a card so that I dont feel this ability is actually costed against his 10SS.

 

If I can wantonly take damage on the model that should be buried in my enemy lines, I am winning already - is this not a win-more, or 1/100 use case 'it-might-seem-preferable-because-staggered-isn't-that-great-either ability'?

way to focus on a singular ability than the total model, sry but that is so out of context and besides earlier argued points... I'll just refer to my earlier post and acknowledge, that Yas could use a better :ToS-Fast: to compare with the other riders, but then he would have to take the consequences on nearly every other rule or stat on his card compared to the other riders, and all here saying Yas is great right now would cry foul and so on, as they'd consider it a crazy nerf and not a way to put him in line with the other riders (imo)...

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6 hours ago, Caspergad said:

way to focus on a singular ability than the total model, sry but that is so out of context and besides earlier argued points... I'll just refer to my earlier post and acknowledge, that Yas could use a better :ToS-Fast: to compare with the other riders, but then he would have to take the consequences on nearly every other rule or stat on his card compared to the other riders, and all here saying Yas is great right now would cry foul and so on, as they'd consider it a crazy nerf and not a way to put him in line with the other riders (imo)...

 

I'm sorry, should I look at a card - see something horrible, and be happy with it during a beta?  We've been asked to generate conversation about our faction, I'm generating conversation about things that dont seem well thought out.

 

Would you rather have a game where models possess abilities that literally make no sense in any scenario?  I would much rather you provide me a valid reason that this ability exists in the first place.  If it's never going to be used, take it off the card - if a different ability can be used and seems fair given the cards current valuation, then we should put that ability on instead - does this really not make sense?  Why would we put irrelevant text on a card?

 

What are you arguing for here, exactly?

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5 hours ago, Outplayed said:

 

I'm sorry, should I look at a card - see something horrible, and be happy with it during a beta?  We've been asked to generate conversation about our faction, I'm generating conversation about things that dont seem well thought out.

 

Would you rather have a game where models possess abilities that literally make no sense in any scenario?  I would much rather you provide me a valid reason that this ability exists in the first place.  If it's never going to be used, take it off the card - if a different ability can be used and seems fair given the cards current valuation, then we should put that ability on instead - does this really not make sense?  Why would we put irrelevant text on a card?

 

What are you arguing for here, exactly?

what I meant, is that I am very tired of people arguing a single point of a model's card without any context, like the rest of the card. Is revel in chaos a very good :ToS-Fast:? no, it's not on par with the other riders' :ToS-Fast:, which (as argued earlier) I think is a fair comparison. Is it there take make sure, that Yas besides his :+flip is certian to get his triggers? I strongly suspect it is, and that's how my 10t opponent has used it, so he's certain of onslaught, which is in my opinion a rather good thing, as otherwise, you'd be pretty sure, that you more or less had to activate Yas early (as someone else surmised quite well earlier), or you'd more likely not get your trigger, unless specifically saving cards for it or letting it depend on luck and said + flip.

So this comes back to chasing advantage... which I experienced and feel being way stronger than chasing fate... as argued before... so, is it fair, that yas has a weaker :ToS-Fast: than the other horsemen right now, yes I think so, but I don't think it should be so (as argued), as I do think he should be on par with the other horsemen in every way (balance wise not singular ability ofcourse, that'd be boring). which brings us back to:

On 2/5/2019 at 12:10 PM, Caspergad said:

My suggestion would be to put Yas in line with the other riders, like give him fate tokens like them, remove chasing advantage and revel in chaos, give him a :ToS-Fast: like and on level with the other riders, reduce his WP to six like the others, give him ruthless (though god knows 10T don't need more of these to compare), unyielding (sure why not) and remove his :+flipon melee like the others... that's how much you need to do to bring him in line with the other riders... so either Yasunori is on another tier by himself way above the others, or this suggestion shouldn't really meet much resistance. 

which is not far above in the same thread, which is why, it did seem like you're not reacting to any prior post, which is, imo, at little tiring... now I don't say in any way, that I have the god honest truth, but I will maintain, that taking one ability out of context is harmfull for any debate and a bit onesided to your point (as it is probably the only not great thing on yasunori's card)...

So I am arguing that, the ability has some function IF you read the entire card, AND that prior posts have taken into account, that the :ToS-Fast: is not on par with the other horsemen, BUT if it should be changed to be on par with them, Yas should be compared/changed on like 4-5 parametres, AND most if not all of them would feel like a nerf for 10t players... that's what I am arguing...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

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2 hours ago, Caspergad said:

which is not far above in the same thread, which is why, it did seem like you're not reacting to any prior post, which is, imo, at little tiring... now I don't say in any way, that I have the god honest truth, but I will maintain, that taking one ability out of context is harmfull for any debate and a bit onesided to your point (as it is probably the only not great thing on yasunori's card)...

So I am arguing that, the ability has some function IF you read the entire card, AND that prior posts have taken into account, that the :ToS-Fast: is not on par with the other horsemen, BUT if it should be changed to be on par with them, Yas should be compared/changed on like 4-5 parametres, AND most if not all of them would feel like a nerf for 10t players... that's what I am arguing...                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

That's perfectly OK that you feel that way, and I'm sorry that my not reacting to your posts explicitly is tiring, but I am not going to modify my behavior so I would adjust your expectations to avoid being let down in the future.  You also seem to be tired of people focusing on a single element of a card.  Here's the thing - when the rest of the card looks useful, and there's a part that doesn't - it's going to get attention - full stop.

 

I'm paying for all the words on this card, I'm paying 10SS for them.  Right now, the creators of this game feel that each of these abilities, actions and stats all add up to a certain value that justifies the fact this model costs 10SS.  You are very concerned about context, well - lets look at the context of this ability on the card that it lives.  I can see all these other cool things, that should definitely be there for this model to work!  Then I see 'Revel in Chaos' - and if I try SUPER HARD I can think of a reason to use this ability once every - how many games? 10?

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Our Yasunori is special. Do not ask to put him in line with the other riders xD

I used the :ToS-Fast: couple of times . It is a little situational but you have still the other one 

#keepYasspecial 😂

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16 hours ago, Outplayed said:

That's perfectly OK that you feel that way, and I'm sorry that my not reacting to your posts explicitly is tiring, but I am not going to modify my behavior so I would adjust your expectations to avoid being let down in the future.  You also seem to be tired of people focusing on a single element of a card.  Here's the thing - when the rest of the card looks useful, and there's a part that doesn't - it's going to get attention - full stop.

 

I'm paying for all the words on this card, I'm paying 10SS for them.  Right now, the creators of this game feel that each of these abilities, actions and stats all add up to a certain value that justifies the fact this model costs 10SS.  You are very concerned about context, well - lets look at the context of this ability on the card that it lives.  I can see all these other cool things, that should definitely be there for this model to work!  Then I see 'Revel in Chaos' - and if I try SUPER HARD I can think of a reason to use this ability once every - how many games? 10?

well, that makes it pretty hard to have a meaningfull discussion if every comment is just a pop-box of the top of your head... let's just stop having threads then and just make random chatbubbles... 

yeah, you are paying for all of it. and yet, it's not complete yet, so you don't have a right to any of it yet, neither do I... it's a beta... so you don't like revel in chaos, we get it... though I think you'll live, as I expect Yasunori to be that veratile beater that 10t players will have as a go to model instead of the one from the theme, which I think is a shame, as he should be an option not the option. 

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10 hours ago, Caspergad said:

well, that makes it pretty hard to have a meaningfull discussion if every comment is just a pop-box of the top of your head... let's just stop having threads then and just make random chatbubbles...  

yeah, you are paying for all of it. and yet, it's not complete yet, so you don't have a right to any of it yet, neither do I... it's a beta... so you don't like revel in chaos, we get it... though I think you'll live, as I expect Yasunori to be that veratile beater that 10t players will have as a go to model instead of the one from the theme, which I think is a shame, as he should be an option on the option. 

If you'd like to have a back-and-forth in PM's you are more than welcome to inbox me.  However, in this thread, I'm going to move on in my observations of Yasunori, and this model's place in M3E.

 

Comparisons to the Rider models is going to happen without apology.  The riders REVEL IN X, so does Yas, the riders CHASE FATE, Yasunori CHASES ADVANTAGE!  There's a timing element to all of these Riders that dictate when in the turn or game they are going to be most effective - Yasunori is slightly different, but does fall into this category.

 

The other Riders (all?) have 2 significant bonus actions, which - paired to their higher movement stat, allow them the choice of engagement early, or an alpha-strike (assisting someone elses movement significantly on the way).  This is of course weighed against the fact that each of the other Riders dont 'come online' early, and diving in would be a risk.  Still, that risk is their choice.  Ultimately, choice is what I have a problem with in Yasunori.  The model is effective at being a tanky beater - period.  I wont argue with this in the slightest, and I am not trying to make it sound like Yasunori doesn't have a place on the table.  The problem I have with Yas is the amount of choice it has extended to my opponent.  Yas can be played around, activate early - dump your hand, Yas' effectiveness has been SEVERELY limited if he activates against an opponent with no cards in hand.  No problem I will just REVEL IN CHAOS and do damage to myself, buried in combat. 

 

Lets really dive into how this ability is used effectively, I have been asking for examples in which Revel in Chaos has been the obviously best thing to do, and why.  Nobody has given me a solid answer on that - and do you know why?  It's so situational, the detail required in explaining the setup of a 'useful scenario' for Revel in Chaos is extremely difficult.  Let me give you an example of what I'm looking for - lets lead from the front:

 

1. Turn 3, opponent cheats a 13 to go first.

2. Opponent activates a beater, and lays into their target, cheats twice on attacks, cheats once on damage.

3. Discards for Juggernaut, heals 1/2/4.

4. Activation 1, turn 3, my opponent dropped their good cards into me, and now even if Yas were to activate now - my opponent has 2 cards in hand.  Do I Revel in Chaos now?  Help me analyze this one.  If I dont, my opponent cheats, and even if my attack goes through - when we evaluate suits, if I did not flip a Mask or cheat one high enough to beat my opponent, then I wont get Onslaught.  Or do I Revel in Chaos, and draw a card or two, do I have to draw 3?  Maybe I cheated a card earlier when my opponent's first activation was going on, so that I wouldn't be discarding randomly when I went to Revel later, because I would have to be thinking about that during these opening plays.  I have to consider sub-optimal plays from a previous activation in order to maximize a Yas activation?  Sometimes we have to do that - I would hope it isn't too often, since the ability itself requires a Suited TN, does damage to me, and gives my opponent cards, that they can then use to cheat against me to prevent these subsequent attacks - or to even tie-their own cheats to dump cards and remove my advantage.

 

If your opponent has 1 card in hand, and you want to try and get 4 attacks with Yasunori, but dont have masks... how much damage do you take?  Should I be honored to have the CHOICE of doing damage to myself?  Do I need to be excited about every model, and every ability in my faciton?  No, but one of the most important Versatile models I have at my disposal should at least make sense from a design-philosophy standpoint in the same space as these other effective models that have no problem finding value from every ability and every action.

 

The only scenario it would make sense to suffer damage is when you are:

1. Winning so handily that reprisal is unlikely or setting up Yasunori as a target is part of your strategy.

2. Isolated against a model that needs to die this turn, when neither you nor your opponent have cards in hand.

3. You are desperate, have no cards, and neither does your opponent.

 

 

Compare these instances to when the bonus actions on the other riders seem valuable.  Can you use one every turn?  Do they impact the board?

 

Yasunori's startle may make sense if he himself prompted a Mv duel of some type, but he doesn't.

 

I dont need Yasunori to be a RIDER, I am merely using them as a basis of comparison because they are the closest models to draw comparison from - and their card front and backs are all cohesive, make sense, serve both the rider and the context they want to be hired in.  Yasunori is a tanky beater that needs help moving, and one of his abilities harkens to other useful abilities by name, and is of arguably equal value - if not greater - value to my opponent.  My opponent's beater takes damage, has to spend a suited card, and I get to draw cards?

 

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8 hours ago, Outplayed said:

If you'd like to have a back-and-forth in PM's you are more than welcome to inbox me.  However, in this thread, I'm going to move on in my observations of Yasunori, and this model's place in M3E.

 

Comparisons to the Rider models is going to happen without apology.  The riders REVEL IN X, so does Yas, the riders CHASE FATE, Yasunori CHASES ADVANTAGE!  There's a timing element to all of these Riders that dictate when in the turn or game they are going to be most effective - Yasunori is slightly different, but does fall into this category.

 

The other Riders (all?) have 2 significant bonus actions, which - paired to their higher movement stat, allow them the choice of engagement early, or an alpha-strike (assisting someone elses movement significantly on the way).  This is of course weighed against the fact that each of the other Riders dont 'come online' early, and diving in would be a risk.  Still, that risk is their choice.  Ultimately, choice is what I have a problem with in Yasunori.  The model is effective at being a tanky beater - period.  I wont argue with this in the slightest, and I am not trying to make it sound like Yasunori doesn't have a place on the table.  The problem I have with Yas is the amount of choice it has extended to my opponent.  Yas can be played around, activate early - dump your hand, Yas' effectiveness has been SEVERELY limited if he activates against an opponent with no cards in hand.  No problem I will just REVEL IN CHAOS and do damage to myself, buried in combat. 

 

Lets really dive into how this ability is used effectively, I have been asking for examples in which Revel in Chaos has been the obviously best thing to do, and why.  Nobody has given me a solid answer on that - and do you know why?  It's so situational, the detail required in explaining the setup of a 'useful scenario' for Revel in Chaos is extremely difficult.  Let me give you an example of what I'm looking for - lets lead from the front:

 

1. Turn 3, opponent cheats a 13 to go first.

2. Opponent activates a beater, and lays into their target, cheats twice on attacks, cheats once on damage.

3. Discards for Juggernaut, heals 1/2/4.

4. Activation 1, turn 3, my opponent dropped their good cards into me, and now even if Yas were to activate now - my opponent has 2 cards in hand.  Do I Revel in Chaos now?  Help me analyze this one.  If I dont, my opponent cheats, and even if my attack goes through - when we evaluate suits, if I did not flip a Mask or cheat one high enough to beat my opponent, then I wont get Onslaught.  Or do I Revel in Chaos, and draw a card or two, do I have to draw 3?  Maybe I cheated a card earlier when my opponent's first activation was going on, so that I wouldn't be discarding randomly when I went to Revel later, because I would have to be thinking about that during these opening plays.  I have to consider sub-optimal plays from a previous activation in order to maximize a Yas activation?  Sometimes we have to do that - I would hope it isn't too often, since the ability itself requires a Suited TN, does damage to me, and gives my opponent cards, that they can then use to cheat against me to prevent these subsequent attacks - or to even tie-their own cheats to dump cards and remove my advantage.

 

If your opponent has 1 card in hand, and you want to try and get 4 attacks with Yasunori, but dont have masks... how much damage do you take?  Should I be honored to have the CHOICE of doing damage to myself?  Do I need to be excited about every model, and every ability in my faciton?  No, but one of the most important Versatile models I have at my disposal should at least make sense from a design-philosophy standpoint in the same space as these other effective models that have no problem finding value from every ability and every action.

 

The only scenario it would make sense to suffer damage is when you are:

1. Winning so handily that reprisal is unlikely or setting up Yasunori as a target is part of your strategy.

2. Isolated against a model that needs to die this turn, when neither you nor your opponent have cards in hand.

3. You are desperate, have no cards, and neither does your opponent.

 

 

Compare these instances to when the bonus actions on the other riders seem valuable.  Can you use one every turn?  Do they impact the board?

 

Yasunori's startle may make sense if he himself prompted a Mv duel of some type, but he doesn't.

 

I dont need Yasunori to be a RIDER, I am merely using them as a basis of comparison because they are the closest models to draw comparison from - and their card front and backs are all cohesive, make sense, serve both the rider and the context they want to be hired in.  Yasunori is a tanky beater that needs help moving, and one of his abilities harkens to other useful abilities by name, and is of arguably equal value - if not greater - value to my opponent.  My opponent's beater takes damage, has to spend a suited card, and I get to draw cards?

 

I agree with the sentiment here. He is still cheaper by 1ss. Revel could use tweaking to be net positive. Currently it's one good thing in gaining you cards and masks (maybe) and two negatives (cards and damage for them). Seems like it is either more negative or barely breaking even.

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@Outplayed

ok, so you say, that your opponent has a godlike hand and dumps it first turn (and apparently he has focus as well as he cheat damage!?) and his beater activates first and whollops something? ok... so now he has 1 card left and you don't have the trigger anymore and it's your turn. Well congratulations, you are playing against a player who has no idea what he just did to himself, as unless he just got insane value out of that play (and he certainly didn't kill yasunori  with those stats) then he is playing at a huge disadvantage for the rest of the turn... as in he pretty much gave you the turn. it's incredibly risky to play with no cards inhand especially from after the first activation. (so the scenario you setup simply isn't happening) furthermore, you still have a more or less unused hand and have yasunori unactivated who can pretty much reliably hit anything with his stat 6  + flip, AND with that tasty full hand you have you've got a good chance of cheating a mask in or simply drawing it... so even without the inbuilt trigger you still have a good chance of using it. So yas can whollop someone 2-4 times (and stagger something))... yes, you're then not certain that you get the trigger, BUT you have a model that just made your opponent dump his whole hand!? (and I am very certain that your scenario is never really gonna happen unless maybe it's a very inexperienced player) so baring a total vacuum with a never-gonna-happen scenario, chasing advantage is pretty damn good...

 

Now, is revel in chaos not very good... it is not, so could you please hear me, when I repeat for the umph-teen time, that I think revel in chaos should be on level with the other riders' :ToS-Fast:  BUT be aware, that if it is, everything points to Yasunori going up in cost and being hit on other parameters like his plus flip and so on, as the rest of his card is waaay above the curve. So if you're using the riders as a comparison, then please compare the package instead of wishlisting for the one thing where the riders are better than yasunori as he trumps them rule for rule on the rest of his card. You dislike revel in chaos, we get that, I dislike yasunori coming at a premium, you probably get that... both are very easily fixed...

 

  • Haha 1

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