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Ashes & Dust reforming?

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When you replace, the rules state that you take the hp of the original model or the replacement model, whichever is the lowest.

But in the case of Ashes & Dust you actually replace two models, so how much health will Ashes & Dust have when it re-appers ?

5, 6 or even 8(in case you combine the helath of the original models before deciding which value is the lovest)

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2 hours ago, bonsin said:

When you replace, the rules state that you take the hp of the original model or the replacement model, whichever is the lowest.

But in the case of Ashes & Dust you actually replace two models, so how much health will Ashes & Dust have when it re-appers ?

5, 6 or even 8(in case you combine the helath of the original models before deciding which value is the lovest)

"If multiple models would be Replaced with one
model, the new model is placed into base contact
with any of the original models. Add the Health
of the original models together for step 2."

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14" reform seems to strong for full health. 10-12" would be less NPE especially from a model who can easily be min 4 damage and severe at 7. All for only 9ss. This model is bonkers even losing it's third AP from m2e.

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57 minutes ago, newsun said:

14" reform seems to strong for full health. 10-12" would be less NPE especially from a model who can easily be min 4 damage and severe at 7. All for only 9ss. This model is bonkers even losing it's third AP from m2e.

Its not a full health respawn if the oppononet is able to deal damage to either the Core or Storm.  Storm is fairly hardy, but Core is Df 2.  Any model is going to deal damage to hit by looking at it rudely.  So chances are its not a gonna to trigger a Full A&D

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35 minutes ago, Davos said:

Its not a full health respawn if the oppononet is able to deal damage to either the Core or Storm.  Storm is fairly hardy, but Core is Df 2.  Any model is going to deal damage to hit by looking at it rudely.  So chances are its not a gonna to trigger a Full A&D

Can easily wait till last activation for A&D before committing to make this basically impossible to stop the first time. Once in there, this becomes more feasible. Most games this is at least 29 hp worth of model (s) played by a smart player.

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1 hour ago, newsun said:

Can easily wait till last activation for A&D before committing to make this basically impossible to stop the first time. Once in there, this becomes more feasible. Most games this is at least 29 hp worth of model (s) played by a smart player.

Sure, one turn 1 or 2 you can hold him back and activate him last.  But once he's actively engaged and fighting, A&D will be exposed.  Then,  if he's defeated, its mostly likely in a group or near a selection of enemy models. Upon defeat, he is replaced by the Core, who is now in the middle or near enemy models, seeing as A&D was killed in the first place.  

Now, you are correct, if A&D is killed on the last action on the last activation of the enemy crew, it will most likely come back without any trouble, at full health.  However, if A&D is killed at any point that is not the literal end of the turn, the opponent will have time to counter-play and 

1) Attack Core (or Storm which will be more difficult seeing as he's  on a board edge, but possible, if unlikely).  Core is Df 1, with a best defense of 15 w/Red Joker.  The average attack stat of models is 5, meaning a 10 on the average attack will cause a hit and damage (barring a black joker).  Is the Core difficult to damage? Yes, Armor 2 and Hard to Wound mean you almost always will inflict min damage of 1.  However, any model that ignores armor will eat him alive or cause significant damage, so that IF he is able to replace into A&D, A&D will not be able to return at full HP

2) Block movement of the Storm to prevent him getting into base contact with the Core.  You can surround the Core (not super reliable, but theoretically possible) Or place models along the path between Core and Storm.  So If Storm tries to walk, he will have to pass through engagements and potentially lose inches of move.  

3) Disable the Bonus action to prevent the return.

Now, yes, is he hard to truly kill?  Yes.  Is it brokenly strong and OP (like in M2E)?  No, I do not think so.  He is valuable and worth his stones, but not the godtier monster everyone thinks he is

Edited by Davos
Error on A&D stat
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1 hour ago, Davos said:

Sure, one turn 1 or 2 you can hold him back and activate him last.  But once he's actively engaged and fighting, A&D will be exposed.  Then,  if he's defeated, its mostly likely in a group or near a selection of enemy models. Upon defeat, he is replaced by the Core, who is now in the middle or near enemy models, seeing as A&D was killed in the first place.  

Now, you are correct, if A&D is killed on the last action on the last activation of the enemy crew, it will most likely come back without any trouble, at full health.  However, if A&D is killed at any point that is not the literal end of the turn, the opponent will have time to counter-play and 

1) Attack Core (or Storm which will be more difficult seeing as he's  on a board edge, but possible, if unlikely).  Core is Df 1, with a best defense of 15 w/Red Joker.  The average attack stat of models is 5, meaning a 10 on the average attack will cause a hit and damage (barring a black joker).  Is the Core difficult to damage? Yes, Armor 2 and Hard to Wound mean you almost always will inflict min damage of 1.  However, any model that ignores armor will eat him alive or cause significant damage, so that IF he is able to replace into A&D, A&D will not be able to return at full HP

2) Block movement of the Storm to prevent him getting into base contact with the Core.  You can surround the Core (not super reliable, but theoretically possible) Or place models along the path between Core and Storm.  So If Storm tries to walk, he will have to pass through engagements and potentially lose inches of move.  

3) Disable the Bonus action to prevent the return.

Now, yes, is he hard to truly kill?  Yes.  Is it brokenly strong and OP (like in M2E)?  No, I do not think so.  He is valuable and worth his stones, but not the godtier monster everyone thinks he is

So the way to deal with this one models is that I must commit multiple model's AP and maybe I'll stop or reduce the amount of hp it comes back with? How is that not busted? Typically we are taking about 6-10 models total so minimum this model requires 2 of those to deal with and you need to be close with at least one of those where min 4 will possibly get you murdered with two swings.

 

In no way did the above show how he's easy to deal with after already knocking all the HP to 0, which is effort required no matter what. Currently I think hard to find a list which won't want this model in faction. It's simply too good not to consider even with +1ss.

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4 hours ago, Davos said:

Its not a full health respawn if the oppononet is able to deal damage to either the Core or Storm.  Storm is fairly hardy, but Core is Df 2.  Any model is going to deal damage to hit by looking at it rudely.  So chances are its not a gonna to trigger a Full A&D

That's simply not true. You must do at least 4 to even reduce the HP at all since they're at 11hp to 8 and armor 2 on core mean entirely possible to suck up 2 models activation just to remove it, and that's already after you dealt with a&d.

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As someone who has multiple times had A&D countered, I just have to say try it a few more times, Newsun. Also in our game yesterday he didn't actually do anything besides it and tank a bunch of hits. Also as several folks have pointed out, going late is pretty easy turn 1, but not on subsequent turns .

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Hmm as an avid Levi and a&d player in 2e I am really not seeing it in 3e and have to even consider if he's worth taking.

He is definitely far from broken or even an auto include as not sure if will bring him even in theme. Too easy to deal with this version and the rejoin is too easy to break up with a push or lure

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I playing for Levi entire closed beta-test and couple games in open beta and I can say that A&D is a great model, definetely not broken. In my games my opponents know how to deal with him and this is not something special. He's totally fine right now in my opinion, we need just to look at other models (like Madame Sybelle) and compare them, improve them to A&D level (or Montresor lvl, or Bishop lvl, or Whiskey golem lvl and etc).

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