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Jordon

Kaeris impressions

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Maybe add into Flaming body that enemy models may not remove this model's burning.

I really, really like this version of Kaeris and wish I could get the opportunity to test it (doing a homestay in Japan for the next 3 weeks, so no games). My only concern is whether Blaze of Glory is too good or just turns her into a turret again. I don't think it will because run & gun is such a good change to help keep her mobile so she's within range, but not too close.

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Maybe the thing to do is make all 3 golems have a specific streanth- 1 should be super tanky maybe the metal gamin, one should be super disrupty (maybe the fire golem, that makes people weaken near him due to the smog or something maybe) and one should be super hitty (maybe the ice gamin which could even have the highest armour but the lowest wounds even)

it helps then make a choice for sandeep over what he wants to supplement the rest of his crew with and also they have specific roles in the crews they are in . i think at the moment they all feel like there trying to be genericaly good models and its kinds of meaning one has to be the weakest

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5 hours ago, Adran said:

 

Fires biggest downside is its reliance on burning, and the potential ability to remove that condition.

 

What I thought was odd was how badly people were freaking out about how hard the Fire Golem was to kill and I wasn't seeing any battle reports of people using condition removal to leave the Golem without any armor. I thought the ability for all of the Burning to get removed kind of kept it in check. 

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Friendly fire: "When a model declares a Projectile (z) Action targeting an engaged or engaging model..."
Conflagration: "This Action ignores models with Burning for the purposes of Friendly Fire."

So if you target a model engaged with one other model you can ignore friendly fire if either one has burning?

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I just finished a game using the new latest version of Kaeris and I came away less impressed than I had hoped. She was a definite improvement but I still get that feeling of hoop jumping on some of her abilities that makes things a bit more work than I feel it should be. 

I also found out that incorporeal shuts her down hard. I'm not sure how much that will come up because I'm not familiar with how much incorporeal exists within the factions but damn is it a silver bullet for nearly everything Kaeris does. Her conflagration only does 1 damage even with the smoulder trigger (2 reduced to 1 for the main and 1 reduced to 0 for the trigger), burning doesn't do any damage until +4, and pyre markers have no effect. I would definitely call that a hard counter. 

I was so optimistic about the changes that I had forgotten to factor in what she lost to get those new abilities. The loss of 3 Pyre markers a turn was definitely felt. Even in her previous incarnation, I really felt like there wasn't enough pyre early game to do what she wants. Now that she's capped at 2 per turn (if you get the trigger), that problem only seems worst. Similarly, the amount of burning going around was noticeably smaller. With less pyre markers, meant less burning, combined with the loss of Intense Heat, meant that burning had a harder time stacking. I do prefer her new direction but I while she gained a lot, she also lost a lot as well. 

I feel like Kaeris is almost there. Conflagration still seems to be the sore spot on her card and I feel like having smoulder increase up to 2 damage would be the fix. With it taking up a trigger and reducing burning, it's a hefty price for the current +1 damage when looking at other similar based abilities. Also replace the blaze trigger because it's not worth it over smoulder.

Beyond that, I feel like Kaeris really needs another free action. Late game, Pyre marker generation is less important and I find myself just using it because I have nothing better to do. Early game Pyre Markers are so critical and I really want at a minimum of 3 per turn but somewhere around mid game, I shift from wanting to create them to manipulating the ones I have and trying to capitalize more on burning which at that point should be reaching the burning 4+ mark. 

TLDR: A step in the right direction but still not quite enough just yet. 

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What if the Pyre Marker generation was something the other main Firebugs (Firestarter and Golem) had as well?  In my games I've found Carlos a mandatory pick specifically because he helps get the Pyres out there.

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9 minutes ago, retnab said:

What if the Pyre Marker generation was something the other main Firebugs (Firestarter and Golem) had as well?  In my games I've found Carlos a mandatory pick specifically because he helps get the Pyres out there.

Gave "inferno" to the fire golem can be a good way... now kaeris loose it ?

For the firestarter i think he s right now...

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58 minutes ago, Jordon said:

burning doesn't do any damage until +4

 

Incorporeal only reduces damage from Attack Actions (unless it was changed and I missed it) so end of turn burning damage is not reduced

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1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

Incorporeal only reduces damage from Attack Actions (unless it was changed and I missed it) so end of turn burning damage is not reduced

Yup you're right. It probably would have helped in my game but the ignoring Pyre Markers is what stung the most

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I got the Wildfire crew on the table again with this weeks changes.   

The design space still seems REALLY muddled for the Kaeris crew as a whole, there doesn't ever seem to have been a firm position taken on who you're supposed to be setting on fire.  I still think in terms of in faction USP and design space it makes way more sense for her to buff her own crew by giving them burning (like in M2e) rather than ending up as a sub-Rasputina but with fire YMMV.

I also think we could kill a massive amount of rules bloat if her totem had an ability that simply said;  Friendly models in this crew may choose not to take damage from the burning condition.  That way we don't have to put a rule on everything that stops it burning to death and/or having to activate in fiddly order to avoid taking burning damage.

 

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So just as a thought experiment, Kaeris' crew is about two things: Burning, and Pyre Markers.  This is how those effects line up for how the Wildfires can use/modify Burning or Pyres for each crew:

Burning on:

  • Friendlies
    • Blaze of Glory (trade Burning for :+flip's)
    • Flaming Body (trade Burning for damage reduction)
  • Enemies
    • Conflagration (ignore Friendly Fire)
    • Smolder (trade Burning for damage)
    • Immolate (trade Burning for damage)
    • Pyromaniac (kill credit for death by Burning)
    • Hot Spot (damage for Assisting away Burning)
    • Flame Wall (if 3+ Burning make a Pyre Marker)
    • Heat Exhaustion (when damaged by Burning gain Injured)
    • Opportunist (trade Conditions for :+flip's)
  • Either
    • Light Under Their Feet (trade Burning for movement)
    • Embrace the Flame (trade Burning for heals)
    • Draw Off Flame (steal Burning for movement)

Pyre Markers for:

  • Friendlies
    • Promised to the Flame (damage reduction)
    • Pyreheart (trade Pyres for Burning and heals)
  • Enemies
    • Third Degree Burns (Pyres also give Injured)
    • Fan the Flames (damage)
    • Flaming Detonation (damage and Burning)
  • Either
    • Control the Flames (move Pyres)
    • Dancing in the Flames (move Pyres)

 

Looking at that, I'm thinking we can probably do a shuffle on stuff.  Maybe make it so the Wildfires really like to be near their Pyre Markers and skew most positive effects towards that.  As a few spitball examples, maybe we could make the following changes:

  • Blaze of Glory: This model gains :+flip's to duels during its Activation when in base contact with a Pyre Marker.  It may ignore Pyre Markers' Hazardous terrain trait.
  • Flameborn: Reduce all damage this model suffers from Burning to 0.  When this model suffers damage, it may reduce the value of its Burning by 1 to reduce the damage it suffers by 1.
  • Flaming Body: [remove]
  • Promised to the Flame: [give this to the Fire Golem]

It already feels like there's a lot of different ways we modify Burning on the enemies, so I don't think that needs more of a skewing.  If we just push things more towards the Wildfire being able to ignore the penalties of or more commonly benefit from Pyre Markers rather than Burning specifically, then we can focus on Burning being specifically an aggressive thing.

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2 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

I got the Wildfire crew on the table again with this weeks changes.   

The design space still seems REALLY muddled for the Kaeris crew as a whole, there doesn't ever seem to have been a firm position taken on who you're supposed to be setting on fire.  I still think in terms of in faction USP and design space it makes way more sense for her to buff her own crew by giving them burning (like in M2e) rather than ending up as a sub-Rasputina but with fire YMMV.

I also think we could kill a massive amount of rules bloat if her totem had an ability that simply said;  Friendly models in this crew may choose not to take damage from the burning condition.  That way we don't have to put a rule on everything that stops it burning to death and/or having to activate in fiddly order to avoid taking burning damage.

 

I wouldn’t mind having the focus of Kaeris’s crew shift a little more towards the idea of the Burning condition being a good thing for them and being less dependent on the enemy suffering the effects of Burning and Pyre Markers. 

Effects on enemies should be checking for the existence of the Burning condition on or to their proximity to Pyre markers. This keeps models that are immune to burning damage or hazardous terrain from being able to avoid most of Kaeris’s crews mechanics.

I don’t like the idea of tying the crew’s mitigation of Burning or Pyre Markers to Kaeris’s totem, since the totem is relatively easy to remove leaving the crew in a bad place once it has been killed.

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If you want the totem to be more survivable you could do a thing where it buries when it dies and replaces a pyre marker to come back. I don't know what it is flavour wise, but it is called the ETERNAL flame at least.

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28 minutes ago, Primate said:

I don't know what it is flavour wise, but it is called the ETERNAL flame at least.

A Fire Gamin that was intentionally summoned inside the machine IIRC, not sure what about that gives it its powers though

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1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

I don’t like the idea of tying the crew’s mitigation of Burning or Pyre Markers to Kaeris’s totem, since the totem is relatively easy to remove leaving the crew in a bad place once it has been killed.

Probably fair but my point remains; there’s a vast amount of rules real-estate in the Wildfire crew being spent on getting around them talking burning damage. Seems to me we could mitigate that a lot by having a rule stapled to Kaeris or her totem that covers it, thus freeing up a lot of room elsewhere and cutting down on a lot of the jank in the crew’s interactions. 

Hell you could just have the rule be; If this model was hired then models in this crew are immune to damage from the burning condition, this effect persists even if this model is not in play.

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You could give give a nod back to M2E and give Kaeris a Purifying Fire passive ability 

Purifying Fire: When resolving the burning condition. Friendly models within 6" do not suffer damage and instead heal that amount (to some maximum). Enemy models within 6" count as having their burning condition at +1.

Scewing her more towards a support de-buffer while making mobility critical (which works out great for her). Burning itself can just be it's own reward without the need to use it as a resource for every ability. Enemy models take 2 damage at burning +3 (while within 6") and friendly models gain a pseudo regen (again while within range). The rest of her card would largely stay the same except maybe changing conflagration into a burning exclusive attack (flaming halo?) with her old trigger to take the action again at a different model. The focus being on trying to spread fire across as many models as possible.  

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I really like the idea of Kaeris simply giving her entire crew immunity to burning damage. As I said earlier, a basic part of the toolkit for any marker or condition based crew is immunity to the effects of their own terrain or the damage from their own conditions. This is a crew which places terrain markers the *only* effective of which is to hand out, indiscriminately, a condition which does damage, and also has abilities like Fiery Presence which are, again, indiscriminate in handing out burning. So they should absolutely be immune to the damage from  Burning, and the best and simplest way to do that is for Kaeris to have an ability which makes her crew immune to that damage.

An additional benefit of attaching this ability to Kaeris as the crews leader would be to include versatile models in the immunity, which would go some way towards addressing the horribly restricted hiring pool available in theme. 

 

The problem with an ability like Blaze of Glory is that it ends up controlling the models actions-having set themselves on fire, they *have* to then attack an opponent to clear their burning. If they are in a Pyre marker, they then get an additional burning immediately, so they *have* to keep attacking. Even if it's not the best choice. If they move, or interact, they end up taking damage. Or, worse, they don't attack and are dependant on their opponent to attack them to clear their burning. Also, because they have to keep clearing their burning, they can't save it for important duels, or build it up as a resource to use later the way Hoffman can do with power tokens, or Marcus with his upgrades. Most limiting of all, to keep getting burning for the ability, they have to stay in the Pyre markers. The description of m3e Kaeris talks about 'hemming her enemies in with growing walls of flame', but with a crew dependant on abilities like this and Promised to the flame, right now it feels like she's hemming *her own* crew in, and to the relatively small area close to the Pyre markers. 

Blaze of Glory also doesn't fix the core weakness of Kaeris's attacks having a poor damage track. Immolate may have required too much set up, but Conflagration was only ever an attack you used to set up more powerful abilities. It still is, except now the best it sets up is a 3/4/5 damage against a single model. That's a decent basic attack for a damage focussed master, but not worth an action to set it up. For reference, Cornelius Basse has the same range as Kaeris, and simply has a straight damage track of 3:blast/4:blast/5:blast. No set-up required, and blasts plus a trigger to put Injured extra. Basse isn't even a damage focussed master to the same degree Kaeris is. More than ever without actions like Immolate to build up to, I feel that Conflagration needs to simply be an attack worth using in it's own right, even with no burning involved on either side,  and definitely without the awful handicap of having to stand still in a pyre marker to fuel Blaze of Glory. Up we go is at least OK for moving opponents around, but as her only melee attack really *has* to be able to attack models with flight, and feels like reposition, so Kaeris could move away, would be a much more useful trigger than 'rising flame'. 

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Does this interaction work with Kaeris:

Bonus Action:Place Pyre on Enemy. Enemy gains Injured +1 and Burning +1. Trigger action again and place Pyre within 3”.  

Melee Attack up you go. Enemy is -1 due to injured. Win duel push them to another Pyre. Enemy gains +1 Injured and +1 Burning. 

Melee Attack up you go. Enemy is -2 due to inured. Win duel and push them to another Pyre. Enemy gains +1 Injured and +1 Burning. 

Melee Attack up you go. Enemy is -3 due to inured. Win duel and push them to another Pyre. Enemy gains +1 Injured and +1 Burning. 

Kaeris ends activation and enemy has +4 Injured and +4 Burning.

 

if yes Kaeris seems pretty strong to me. I like her now.  

 

 

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14 minutes ago, azgadil said:

Does this interaction work with Kaeris:

Bonus Action:Place Pyre on Enemy. Enemy gains Injured +1 and Burning +1. Trigger action again and place Pyre within 3”.  

No. On the Pyre is a Create effect, so it can't be in base contact with another model. You also don't need the second marker. 

Melee Attack up you go. Enemy is -1 due to injured. Win duel push them to another Pyre. Enemy gains +1 Injured and +1 Burning. 

Up We go is a place so you can just place it in the same marker and it gets Hazardous. Note, even if you get the trigger and push it into a second marker, you only take Hazardous once. 

Melee Attack up you go. Enemy is -2 due to inured. Win duel and push them to another Pyre. Enemy gains +1 Injured and +1 Burning. 

Melee Attack up you go. Enemy is -3 due to inured. Win duel and push them to another Pyre. Enemy gains +1 Injured and +1 Burning. 

Kaeris ends activation and enemy has +4 Injured and +4 Burning.

 

if yes Kaeris seems pretty strong to me. I like her now.  

 

 

My question, if you do Up We Go and place it in a Pyre, it gets Hazardous. Does it then get another Hazardous from the trigger's push? I'm pretty sure they do as they're separate movement effects. 

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My question, if you do Up We Go and place it in a Pyre, it gets Hazardous. Does it then get another Hazardous from the trigger's push? I'm pretty sure they do as they're separate movement effects. 

I am inclined to answer no. Hazardous specifically says once per action/ability. 

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2 hours ago, azgadil said:

My question, if you do Up We Go and place it in a Pyre, it gets Hazardous. Does it then get another Hazardous from the trigger's push? I'm pretty sure they do as they're separate movement effects. 

I am inclined to answer no. Hazardous specifically says once per action/ability. 

I'm inclined to say yes as the trigger happens after the action is resolved 

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4 hours ago, azgadil said:

Bonus Action:Place Pyre on Enemy. Enemy gains Injured +1 and Burning +1.

It's a create not a place so you can't put the marker in base contact with models or other markers 

Edit: also the initial placement of a marker does not count as moving the marker, therefore it will not be effected by the hazardous even if it was a place.

Edited by WildRose94
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On 2/10/2019 at 5:16 PM, mythicFOX said:

Probably fair but my point remains; there’s a vast amount of rules real-estate in the Wildfire crew being spent on getting around them talking burning damage. Seems to me we could mitigate that a lot by having a rule stapled to Kaeris or her totem that covers it, thus freeing up a lot of room elsewhere and cutting down on a lot of the jank in the crew’s interactions. 

Hell you could just have the rule be; If this model was hired then models in this crew are immune to damage from the burning condition, this effect persists even if this model is not in play.

But that has two problems:

1.  I don't think there are any other rules with "This effect persists even if this model is not in play"

2.  Wildfire Henchmen leading a crew make the crew burn to death.

She might be the master of that keyword, but these models do have to function without her.

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33 minutes ago, solkan said:

But that has two problems:

1.  I don't think there are any other rules with "This effect persists even if this model is not in play"

2.  Wildfire Henchmen leading a crew make the crew burn to death.

She might be the master of that keyword, but these models do have to function without her.

The second point is valid but I do think though we should focus on balancing crews for use by the keyword master, other uses should be very secondary IMHO.

To your first point I don't think that just because a rule in a given form doesn't exist somewhere already it's inherently a problem.  When you think about it there are a number abilities on models that take effect during hiring, so rules that interact with the game when a model isn't in play aren't alien to the game. 

I am fairly confident in my two key criticisms of Kaeris and the Wildfire crew right now;

  1. Lack of focus between setting your crew and the enemy crew on fire.
  2. Too much rules real estate spent managing the negative effects of burning on your own models, leading to clunky interactions / play.

While I freely admit that I may not have the right answers to solve those issues I do think they're what needs to be addressed.  YMMV.

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I think that we'll have to wait and see how the newly proposed injured works before we can continue discussion on Kaeris. I sort of feel like the best parts of Kaeris right now is mostly due to the strength of injured. Seems like it's a hot topic right now so unless Kaeris is planning on changing from her reliance on injured to something else, we'll just have to wait until the condition is finalized before I can comment on Kaeris again.

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