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kross1

So how does Parker play?

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My suggestion with this crew would include some adjustements. 

Parker: while is funny, he still needs a bit of help to taste as a Master. All his tactical needs enemy markers, his "main" attack is low damage and with small possibilities to help his crew, and his other attack may not be cast twice over the same target. 

I would add the :crowPilfer trigger to Stick Up, what makes a 50% chance to steal ss from ss users. Or maybe add the ss stealing to the own Stick Up Mechanic, and the attack force to discard cards to avoid damage + steal ss, and with one trigger to steal an extra ss. Also adding the Drop It trigger wouldn't be harmful 

For his Six-Shooters, maybe a kind of new trigger like

 :ramThanks for Your Cooperation: Non-Master only. The target may discard a ss. If it does, add a ss to this crew's ss pool. If it does not, the target must take a  non :ToS-Fast:action taken and controlled by that model that does not attach upgrade or list a model by name.

Convict Gunslinger: sorry, keep thinking that, while their damage is too high, a Stat 5 minion with no way to hit the Onslaught trigger shouldn't be 8ss. A Rabble Riser cost 6ss and has the same stats, HtW instead Bulletproof, Blade Rush instead Run & Gun, Fading (Misfit) instead Quick Draw, Flurry instead Life of Crime, Quick Reflexes instead Onslaught... Not saying Convict Gunsligers are not better, because Convict has :+flipand may shoot, but there's not so much difference between them to cost 2ss more. People are afraid of a trigger that only occurs 25% of succeeding duels (with a Stat 5, don't forget). The only thing they do is to shoot, and they're not enough good for their current cost. 

Bandido: they're fine, but I have a problem with the At Gun Point action being too hard to achieve and not really interesting to try. Too short ranged, an enemy scheme marker is needed and all this set up to make your opponent discard a card. Absolutely not worth it. I' ve already suggested to add to its effect "if the target discard a card, this model may draw a card", and Drop It trigger wouldn't be broken also. 

Doc Mitchell: this model is utile, but needs to be too near the danger, and it's too squishy for that. It could perfectly gain Manipulative, or Disguised, or Stealth or a pair of those (who looks more harmless than the poor coward Doc?) 

Dead Outlaw: not sure about those guys. They became a bit harder to take down (altough their Grit limit didn't change). An interesting adition to their two crews could be a :ToS-Fast: that may allow to change scheme marker's alignment on a pulse? That could turn the ton of friendly markers placed by Bandits in more utile enemy markers, and could help a bit in Tormented crews to scheme less badly. 

 

Don't know, those are just some ideas to adjust a bit the great need of enemy markers with the unreliable source of them. 

I also think that Wokou Raiders need help, but I haven't tested them and that would be theorycrafting. 

 

 

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That hasn't been mi experience along CB and OB, although I've played a lot more with Freikorps. 

Anyway we still aren't "powergaming" with M3E, but testing the crews in different situations/strategies/schemes and seeing how they perform. Parker probably wouldn't be my first choice on Reckoning, or with scheme pools that don't include heavy scheme markers, but if we don't test it we are doing something wrong. 

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Haven't been powergaming, I have been testing the same crew in whatever, situation they find themselves. The one game of reckoning I played was against Hoffman, and they did remarkably well.

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8 hours ago, kross1 said:

Nope, I have had 4 wins with this list

I mean at this point my usual opponent and me doesn't really cares who wins or loses (more or less). We play to win, of course, but we also choose our crews to test models, not to maximize winning options, so sometimes the match is unbalanced and the result doesn't mean that one crew is good or bad. 

That was what I mean with powergaming, not sure if in english has a concrete/negative meaning. 

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The same, none of the games where beat downs. I just don't think you can judge how a crew operates, by playing once and calling it good, broken, or bad. I just played 4 games with the same crew, and happened to win them.

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11 hours ago, Zebo said:

Parker: while is funny, he still needs a bit of help to taste as a Master. All his tactical needs enemy markers, his "main" attack is low damage and with small possibilities to help his crew, and his other attack may not be cast twice over the same target. 

I've seen a lot of restrictions on no more than once per target in the various factions i play and play against. I dont think thats a problem really.

I would add the :crowPilfer trigger to Stick Up, what makes a 50% chance to steal ss from ss users. Or maybe add the ss stealing to the own Stick Up Mechanic, and the attack force to discard cards to avoid damage + steal ss, and with one trigger to steal an extra ss. Also adding the Drop It trigger wouldn't be harmful 

I think you're going too far with the Pilfer trigger. Stealing SS from people is huge and also a super negative play experience. Its bad enough when you have to discard cards but you are straight up messing with their list now (SS are in the cost of their list). I would strongly argue against stealing from them. Gaining one on the other hand is ok imo as it isnt a double gut punch. 

For his Six-Shooters, maybe a kind of new trigger like

 :ramThanks for Your Cooperation: Non-Master only. The target may discard a ss. If it does, add a ss to this crew's ss pool. If it does not, the target must take a  non :ToS-Fast:action taken and controlled by that model that does not attach upgrade or list a model by name.

I personally dont like the thought of him being an obey master on top of a huge range threat, gun line list. It doesnt really fit. I like the name but maybe instead of dealing with SS and taking actions have it do something with fast or slow / focus / push. The name brings to mind a bank / train robbery.

Convict Gunslinger: sorry, keep thinking that, while their damage is too high, a Stat 5 minion with no way to hit the Onslaught trigger shouldn't be 8ss. A Rabble Riser cost 6ss and has the same stats, HtW instead Bulletproof, Blade Rush instead Run & Gun, Fading (Misfit) instead Quick Draw, Flurry instead Life of Crime, Quick Reflexes instead Onslaught... Not saying Convict Gunsligers are not better, because Convict has :+flipand may shoot, but there's not so much difference between them to cost 2ss more. People are afraid of a trigger that only occurs 25% of succeeding duels (with a Stat 5, don't forget). The only thing they do is to shoot, and they're not enough good for their current cost. 

Having played these guys several times and in other lists for 9 points they are still really strong. Stat 5 minion isnt a bad thing. Thats actually average and is beating most def or tying which is again beating. Run and gun is what i think pushes them over the top with fast. Being able to camp at 12 inches and gain fast, focus if you need for the ++ if they are in concealment and still get the straight or + damage is soooo good. Then if they do get engaged you just move out, run and gun shoot, run and gun shoot (assuming fast). and are now farther away than they can reasonably charge. They can take a few hits and that trigger goes off more often than i thought it would. There arent that many high Rams but when you are at a + or ++ its a solid shot.


 

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What if you could always get the discard from At Gunpoint but the obey only turned on near a scheme marker? Something like...

Non-Leader enemy only. Target takes a non-:ToS-Fast: Action that does not Attach Upgrades or list a model by name, chosen and controlled by this model. If the target is not within 3" of an enemy scheme marker, it may discard a random card instead.

Add Once per activation/turn or remove random as necessary. Or realize that it's never going to be easy to balance an obey effect on a 5ss minion and completely redesign it for something less swingy but more consistently useful.

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3 hours ago, Bluefyr said:

I've seen a lot of restrictions on no more than once per target in the various factions i play and play against. I dont think thats a problem really.

In fact, Parker has 4 actions. 2 of them need an enemy scheme marker, and the third is once per activation per target. Those are a lot of restrictions.

 

3 hours ago, Bluefyr said:

I think you're going too far with the Pilfer trigger. Stealing SS from people is huge and also a super negative play experience. Its bad enough when you have to discard cards but you are straight up messing with their list now (SS are in the cost of their list). I would strongly argue against stealing from them.

He can do now, but it's only a 25% possibilities in an attack that can only be cast once for each target and must be casted against ss user. I think are enough loops to increase slightly the chances. 

 

3 hours ago, Bluefyr said:

I personally dont like the thought of him being an obey master on top of a huge range threat, gun line list.

He shoots with 5 and 2/4/5 with no chances of increasing the damage, I wouldn't count him as a range threat. Although you could be right with the obey-master thing. I was thinking to use it to force to interact and drop an enemy marker, and felt I was the smartest in town xD. Could be something like ss-or-marker, or maybe extra damage-or-discard (hi, mental trauma)? The fact is that Six-Shooters is forced to be your main action, and only has one useful trigger, and no option to achieve it more easily. 

 

3 hours ago, Bluefyr said:

Then if they do get engaged you just move out, run and gun shoot, run and gun shoot (assuming fast). and are now farther away than they can reasonably charge.

You can only charge once per activation. But if your experience says that they're fine as they are, I can't do nothing but respect it. 

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14 hours ago, Zebo said:
17 hours ago, Bluefyr said:

Then if they do get engaged you just move out, run and gun shoot, run and gun shoot (assuming fast). and are now farther away than they can reasonably charge.

You can only charge once per activation. But if your experience says that they're fine as they are, I can't do nothing but respect it. 

Ahh you're correct the run and gun is only once, i think i misread it, thank you for the heads up. I dont think i ever used it more than once anyways, moving out of melee, then run and gun, then shoot again usually did enough as it was. (i had no problem getting fast on them most turns).

14 hours ago, Zebo said:

He shoots with 5 and 2/4/5 with no chances of increasing the damage, I wouldn't count him as a range threat. Although you could be right with the obey-master thing. I was thinking to use it to force to interact and drop an enemy marker, and felt I was the smartest in town xD. Could be something like ss-or-marker, or maybe extra damage-or-discard (hi, mental trauma)? The fact is that Six-Shooters is forced to be your main action, and only has one useful trigger, and no option to achieve it more easily. 

I would open to more scheme markers / extra damage but he isnt a magic user so outside of his master status i dont see him forcing people to use / drop / retrieve SS. Though they are physical currency in the world so maybe he's robbing them of their SS? Again i personally dont like that as an option as SS are points in your list building but thats just me.
He is a ranged threat though as he is 12 inches away. Look at Nekima who is a melee beater with a once per activation trigger and a trigger you can only use if you kill them and have a model close by to use the corpse token. Being ranged he has more flexibility and threat is all i was getting at, not that he was a beater from ranged. We have Leve for that :P

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I think that most of you are too focused on Parker's damage, specially in his Six-Shooters. I'm using Six-Shooters only as part of his move+shooting. I will try to get some cards/damage and soulstones with Stick Up! and if the conditions are favourable, I use Bandit Raid. Only if there are at least 1 scheme marker close to your target I would prefer to shoot again (or if I have plenty of tomes), or if there is something that I can kill with 2 damage.

Parker is not a beater, not a shooty master, he is more kind of support and his preferred targets are going to be squishy with Df5 or lower for Six-Shooters and people able to use SS for Stick Up! If you want to shoot hard, use Mad Dog, Sue or Convict Gunslingers.

The only thing I would change, would be giving someone a built-in :tome and try to improve a bit the Dead Outlaws and the Wokou Riders (trying not to unbalance them too much in the other crews).

But like someone previously pointed out, the crew needs a more reliable way to generate enemy scheme markers.

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2 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

I think that most of you are too focused on Parker's damage, specially in his Six-Shooters. I'm using Six-Shooters only as part of his move+shooting. I will try to get some cards/damage and soulstones with Stick Up! and if the conditions are favourable, I use Bandit Raid. Only if there are at least 1 scheme marker close to your target I would prefer to shoot again (or if I have plenty of tomes), or if there is something that I can kill with 2 damage.

Parker is not a beater, not a shooty master, he is more kind of support and his preferred targets are going to be squishy with Df5 or lower for Six-Shooters and people able to use SS for Stick Up! If you want to shoot hard, use Mad Dog, Sue or Convict Gunslingers.

The only thing I would change, would be giving someone a built-in :tome and try to improve a bit the Dead Outlaws and the Wokou Riders (trying not to unbalance them too much in the other crews).

But like someone previously pointed out, the crew needs a more reliable way to generate enemy scheme markers.

Couldn't agree more with this post. Parker is in a great spot and offers so much versatility to his crew. 

It's the access at range to enemy markers he needs. Smugglers, Raiders and Outlaws are all in need of some help and could add more with some kind of reliable access to drop it or an equivalent.

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15 minutes ago, Zebo said:

I don't understand. It was necessary to nerf Parker? I though all the feedback was saying the opposite. 

No idea. I was defending him. I thought he was in a good spot but this is a significant hit to both his main attack and his bonus. 

Now I don't rate him. I think sh6 is a must with this hit.

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1 minute ago, S4lt said:

Now I don't rate him. I think sh6 is a must with this hit.

Technically, it's sometimes Sh 6...

Quote

:ToS-Tome:Highway Robbery: Once per Turn. Enemy only. Immediately, the target must place an enemy Scheme Marker in base contact with itself, in LoS of this model

Quote

Page 38
iii. Declare Triggers (Active player first)
i. Immediately Triggers occur
iv. Determine Success (if Acting model’s duel failed, the Action ends; do not proceed to Step e).

So if you have tomes, you place a scheme marker (and gain +1 Sh for it) before determining success.

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3 minutes ago, S4lt said:

No idea. I was defending him. I thought he was in a good spot but this is a significant hit to both his main attack and his bonus. 

Now I don't rate him. I think sh6 is a must with this hit.

Now you assure 1 scheme marker per turn, even failing (the trigger gets Inmediately), so by itself, he's going to be shooting at 6 :+flip with :tome 

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Just now, ShinChan said:

Now you assure 1 scheme marker per turn, even failing (the trigger gets Inmediately), so by itself, he's going to be shooting at 6 :+flip with :tome 

Yeah, but you'll be shooting at 6:+flipwith an action that doesn't do anything. The entire point of the action was hoping you'd get tomes or focusing and killing a scheme runner. It doesn't really matter how accurate it is, it's a min 2 attack on a master.

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They could have added the new trigger, instead changing it. Limiting the Master's choice of generating the main resource for its crew to 1 per round is not so cool. 

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13 minutes ago, Thangoruin said:

I can't help but feel that they also meant to bake the :tome into his Six-Shooter action so that he can guarantee a scheme marker near his target once per turn.

I think if it was built in it would be reasonable. Especially as it's only once per turn which really hurts his bonus. 

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9 minutes ago, LexLock said:

Yeah, but you'll be shooting at 6:+flipwith an action that doesn't do anything. The entire point of the action was hoping you'd get tomes or focusing and killing a scheme runner. It doesn't really matter how accurate it is, it's a min 2 attack on a master.

Many masters have attack 2/x/x, go and check it.

Since this trigger is going to be only once per turn, he should get at least another trigger apart from reposition, which I love, but some times I just don't want to reposition, which leaves the master with no options for triggers in his attack :(

Still, with this scheme marker, we could still trigger a Bandido to do a free attack and use one of our beaters with Bandit Raid to target the same enemy. I'll test it tomorrow and come back with a report ASAP.

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I kinda like that I can just chunk a low tome, trade it up for a soulstone, draw a card from Wanted Criminal, proc an attack from a Bandido, and push a Wokou Raider up to 3.

If I read the timing right, that's a very cost-efficient use of an ace of tomes!

I agree that I'd like him to have a trigger or two that can be used outside of that once per turn Highway Robbery, but that guaranteed marker sets up Bandit Raid too which, although you need a 6, converts one of his actions into 2 for another bandit (Read Mad Dog).

There is just too much I want to play after this latest update.

Changing the impact of an action so tremendously by modifying the timing on a trigger is just genius. 

I'm selfish here, but I'd like @Kyle and @matt to sign a blood contract with Wyrd. Can't break those, right?

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Couldn't this new trigger be a second bonus action?

At the moment you're trading a card and a needing a 6 to turn 2 master ap into, at best 2 henchman ap. With a chance to maybe do 2 damage.. Not exactly high value. 

Parker could then get drop it back. 

 

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